From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #200 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttyg.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 200 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: St Louis stop ["Bill Diekmann" ] MM: Is it really necessary? [AloanStar@webtv.net (Jeanne Pugh)] Re: MM: Is it really necessary? [Elaine Bean ] Re: MM: Is it really necessary? [CornflkGl@aol.com] MM: thanks ["Mike Gorecki" ] MM: WNEW ["Silver Kat" ] MM: Re: Is it really necessary? ["Kevin B. Pease" ] [none] [Rich Church ] MM: Re: Is it really necessary -Reply [Mark Cicero ] MM: Re: Is it really necessary -Reply ["Allan M. Ayres" Subject: MM: St Louis stop Heard a rumor today that Patty will be in St Louis on the 27th. 10 days away. None of the websites confirm this. Anyone know? or can find out for me? Thanks Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:27:33 -0400 (EDT) From: AloanStar@webtv.net (Jeanne Pugh) Subject: MM: Is it really necessary? I have been on this list for awhile now. I love Patty and her music. I joined the list to keep up with everything that is going on along her path. I love LWG and I love FR. I don't have anything negative to say about her at all. She is amazing as a performer/singer/songwriter and a person. I have only seen her perform twice, but I would go see her perform everyday if I could. I never get tired of listening to her. I kept out of the back and forth discussion about how one CD compared to the other and who hated and liked which song. Those are opinions that everyone should have if they have half a brain. I don't understand the need to go on and on about their high school days. It is not important, and maybe those people should start a website for themselves and let whoever cares read it. I love Tony, but I also understand the point she was making. It is a sad, but true fact that teenagers commit suicide every minute in this country, because they don't fit in, for one reason or another. Knowing you are gay is at the top of the list, especailly with boys. Facing that you are gay and accepting that fact with dignity and pride is sometimes not an option. We have made such an issue in this country of boys being macho, that any boy who doesn't "fit the norm" is labeled a fag and tormented. You can't blame society, we are society. We could learn from the song and help make a change. Just because your high school days (public or private is not important) were wonderful, the kid next to you might have needed you to reach out to them. But instead, just like going on now endlessly, using the list, boring some of us who aren't interested with your glory days, you chose to be a "me" person. That's why you can't understand the song Tony or the real problem that exists which is the basis for the song being written in the first place. I also don't think anyone who is gay and comfortable with themselves is offended by her use of the words fag or faggot, in Tony. I don't hear anyone complaining about 'queer' being used in Moses. I don't believe she uses the terms in a negative way. Patty is a thinker and a thought provoker. She uses whatever term it takes to make her point, but she is never offensive. Please save the high school stories for your class reunion. Sorry to get on my soapbox...I couldn't take it anymore! Jeanne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:14:35 -0400 From: Elaine Bean Subject: Re: MM: Is it really necessary? Jeanne Pugh wrote: > aren't interested with your glory days . . . Are we on the same list? Are we reading the same thing? I don't recall ever reading about anyone's "glory days". In fact, I thought the brief banter about high school was totally relevant, as many were only answering questions brought about by a discussion of the song "Tony". Just goes to show you how two people will see/read the same thing and come away with two different interpretations. Which is not to say you are not entitled to your opinions - of course you are, but so are others. > That's why you can't understand the song Tony or the real problem that > exists which is the basis for the song being written in the first place. Oh, thank you for clarifying for me (sarcasm). I take real exception to somebody telling me that I can't understand something, or I can't know something . . . the implied message being that I'm not bright enough to understand/know these things on my own? (I know this wasn't directed to me specifically, but I wanted to respond anyway) > Please save the high school stories for your class reunion. Sorry to > get on my soapbox...I couldn't take it anymore! ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? What did you find so objectionable about the Tony/high school conversation that transpired? If anyone would like to continue this conversation with me privately, you can get me at bean@neu.edu. I'm leaving for work now. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:02:21 EDT From: CornflkGl@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: Is it really necessary? <> I don't think anyone has said they were wonderful. <> Wow... you just jumped right in there and made that up, didn't you. Who said they didn't understand Tony ? And speaking of going on endlessly, your post was quite long and rambling too. Maybe YOU bored someone. <> They ALWAYS have "high school" in the subject line. Learn to use the delete button. <> Don't say you're sorry if you're not. Someone posted ASKING how high school was. Someone else posted asking if there was a difference between private and public schools. Who are you to decide their questions are not valid ? There IS a Patty-news list, you know. Sounds like it's the kind of thing you need to look into. Rachel :D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:35:21 -0700 From: "Mike Gorecki" Subject: MM: thanks To Jeanne....Thanks...need I say more? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:40:24 -0400 From: "Silver Kat" Subject: MM: WNEW Jerry Z wrote: > Patty Grif-fun will be on Vin Scelsa's "Idiots Delight" radio broadcast on > 8/16/98, WNEW 102.7 The show is live from NYC and usually includes live > performance and interview. Show is from 8:00pm to 2:00 am and the artist > will be featured for an hour or so. > I can't tape it since I'll be in a tent (a Mountain Hardwear "Nightview") > in Yellowstone Park. I'll be able to tape it definitely - and on 5 different tape decks - so anyone who wants a master copy let me know... Cheers Kim Boots Anyone? http://www.angelfire.com/nj/silverkat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:55:24 -0400 From: "Kevin B. Pease" Subject: MM: Re: Is it really necessary? Jeanne, As one of the people who allegedly contributed to boring the rest of the list to tears, I feel compelled to respond to this. And I'm not going to apologize for getting on my soapbox. First, there were approximately 10 messages in the whole thread, from a quick count I just did. Lucky me, my mailbox doesn't get deleted right away & the messages are saved for about two weeks. :) 10 messages related to one topic does not, in my mind at least, constitute a big, or in any way, intrusive, thread. They were all titled with one of the following three subjects: MM: High School / Tony MM: High School Re: MM: High School these are all very easy to delete if you're not interested in reading them, I would think. I regularly ignore messages with subject lines that don't interest me, it's not a hard thing to do. Second. Nobody really went on at length in ANY of those posts. Rachel's post about her small high school was the longest, and that weighed in at a whopping 40 lines of text. Not exactly what I'd call "rambling on and on" about her glory days. I'm assuming the post that set you off was Rachel's as well, as she's the only one who even related anything remotely resembling a high school "story" (cut gym, went to get ice cream). If you want to get statistical... 1/2 of 1 post out of 10 posts = 5% of the total posts were about "high school stories." That means 95% of them weren't. Let's get a little perspective, all right? Third. You go on at length, repeating to us discussions that have already been covered on the list. About what Tony's about, about teenagers committing suicide, about society forcing men to be "macho". Then you state, "We could learn from the song and help make a change. Just because your high school days were wonderful, the kid next to you might have needed you to reach out to them." I think only one person who responded to the original question stated that their high school days were "wonderful". The consensus seemed to me to be, "Yeah, well, they sort of sucked." I was on the fence... I had some good times, I had some bad times. I'm not going to apologize for having as much fun as I could manage during high school (which, in reality, wasn't a whole hell of a lot), and I don't think anybody else should be made to feel like they're somehow wrong or shallow because they tried to make a good thing out of a bad situation. You then somehow make the HUGE leap that, "Having fun in high school" = "being a "me" person" = "Why we're 'unable' to understand Tony. You then totally ignore the fact that most of people who talked about their high school experiences said that, in essence, they sucked. If their high school experience wasn't good, then by your own logic, they aren't "me" people, and they can understand Tony. Don't talk down to us, I think we're all smart enough to know what Tony's about. It seems to me as if there's something deeper for you here, that you're not sharing. Don't expect us to know what's on your mind, and how you feel, if you won't communicate that to us. And don't take out your anger at another person (or other people) on us. Your message is a lot more upset than 10 posts (most of which agree with what you seem to be saying!) to a mail list would seem to warrant. What's the story? >> I also don't think anyone who is gay and comfortable with themselves is >>offended by her use of the words fag or faggot, in Tony. I don't hear >>anyone complaining about 'queer' being used in Moses. I don't believe >>she uses the terms in a negative way. This I believe, was an idea that I brought up. My original statement was that I felt a lot of people would misinterpret the use of the word "fag" and "faggot" in Tony, should it ever get out on the radio. I also said that I thought a lot of gay-rights groups might be offended by it. Anybody who is gay and comfortable with themselves is probably not going to be fazed by the word, you're right. But what about the rest of the people out there - the gay people who *aren't* comfortable with themselves? Isn't it entirely possible that they'd misinterpret what's being said by the song? That was my point, and while I can't presume to speak for gay people, and gay-rights organizations, I do think the song would generate a lot of controversy if it started to get a lot of radio play. I would say the same thing ("expect controversy") of Moses, as well, for it's use of the word "queer", if I felt it was going to be released to radio, and receive widespread popular play. I don't believe she uses the term negatively, either, but I feel that there is a LOT of potential for it to be interpreted in a negative way by people who haven't bothered to listen to the song all the way through. >>Please save the high school stories for your class reunion. Sorry to >>get on my soapbox...I couldn't take it anymore! Again, the only person who really related a "high school story" was Rachel... I thought her story was pretty funny, actually. I'm looking at the apparent amount of anger & upset in your post, Jeanne, and then I'm looking at the original posts on the topic that you're getting upset about, and I'm seeing anger that's way out of proportion with what was originally said. If you have a problem with a specific member of the list, and what they have to say, please address your comments directly to them; Otherwise, learn perspective. One high school story (which I thought was pretty funny, and I'm sure other people did, too) in a 10 post thread does not warrant this amount of anger. Kevin - ---------- Kevin Pease kbpease@boston.crosswinds.net (ICQ UIN: 3106063) (AOL Instant Messenger: kbpease) http://www.crosswinds.net/boston/~kbpease "Well if I were an angel, I could fly over Jordan, and I wouldn't need no Greyhound to save my soul, but maybe that's a good thing, 'cause I'll be home before I know it, And if I was an angel, I'd have a long way to go..." --(Matraca Berg)-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:07:23 +0000 From: Charl Kroeger Subject: MM: Re: Is it really necessary Would everyone PLEASE just GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough has been said! Back to the topic we're here for...... PATTY (remember her?) Thanks Charl Sender: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:19:05 +0000 From: Rich Church Subject: [none] My high-school experience can best be summed up with being one big musical fart. "OBMF" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:59:53 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: Re: Is it really necessary -Reply I guess I have to put in my two cents, as well. I actually enjoy the sometimes "off topic" banter as it sheds a little light on the personalities of the list members. When people share a bit about themselves it makes a sometimes "cold" meduim a bit warmer. So, I for one must say that, NOT ENOUGH HAS BEEN SAID. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN PS: I went to an all boy's catholic high school. Need I say more? >>> Charl Kroeger 07/16/98 06:07am >>> Would everyone PLEASE just GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough has been said! Back to the topic we're here for...... PATTY (remember her?) Thanks Charl Sender: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:11:12 -0700 From: "Allan M. Ayres" Subject: MM: Re: Is it really necessary -Reply Mark said, >When people share a bit about >themselves it makes a sometimes "cold" medium a bit warmer. > >So, I for one must say that, NOT ENOUGH HAS BEEN SAID. Damn straight! As far as I'm concerned, one of the main reasons to listen to music with lyrics (or to read poetry or novels or essays or to pay attention to any other language-based art form) is to expose myself to other people's experiences and imagination and ways of seeing the world. This gives me insights into how my fellow human beings perceive the world, and it also illuminates my own life, makes me see things I didn't see before, think about things that never occurred to me or never could occur to me. (I will never be a mother; but I can listen to "Mary", and read Barbara Kingsolver and Virginia Woolf, and learn just a little bit about what it may be like, and come a tiny bit closer to understanding the life experience of people who actually are mothers.) This is also exactly why I join lists and read newsgroups. Other people's experiences illuminate my life; in the case of mad-mission, other people's commentary takes advantage of our common experience of the music to help broaden my own necessarily narrow awareness of the human condition. What sets Patty apart from 6,000 other female singers with killer voices and good guitar technique is that her songwriting is exquisitely expressive of her experience, imagination, and point of view. And it (apparently) resonates with each one of us, with each of our own experiences, imaginations, points of view. As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely germane to discuss this context in an effort to help each other understand and appreciate the music. I'm frankly perplexed about exactly what the complainers (for lack of a better word) would like this list to be restricted to. Tour dates and setlists, plus the occasional print-media review? That would be boring as hell, it's already available plenty of other places on the web, and it would completely miss the point of a Patty Griffin discussion list. Lists are composed of people, each of whom brings along a particular world when he or she listens to Patty Griffin. I'd like to know about these worlds, how they are similar to mine, how they are different from mine, and what it is that brought them into orbit around the fundamental miracle and mystery of this artist's music. - --Allan ~~~~~~~~ Allan M. Ayres emdash@creative.net http://www.stanford.edu/~ayres ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #200 *********************************