From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #193 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttour.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com/road/index.html * and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 193 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: random replies ["Bill Diekmann" ] MM: Re: random replies ["Victoria Chenevey" ] Re: MM: The album...revisted [JohnRN23@aol.com] MM: Reply to Bill....good thoughts to think over. [CaSerfer@aol.com] MM: Estropalooza! [CaSerfer@aol.com] MM: Band vs. Solo [David Lewis ] MM: Re: Flames and Flaming Red. -Reply [Mark Cicero ] Re: MM: Re: Flames [Elaine Bean ] Re: MM: random replies ["Allan M. Ayres" ] MM: Moses [Elaine Bean ] MM: off topic, but hilarious ["Bill Diekmann" ] MM: hee hee..."Goodbye" in "jive" [CornflkGl@aol.com] MM: MTV.com review of Flaming Red :-) [Mike Connell Subject: MM: random replies a few thoughts (replies) from No Depression Magazine, "What one might see as musical variety, the reviewer saw as unfocused." - ------------------------ Actually, I kind of agree with that term, although I would accuse the suits at the record company rather than Patty. Putting so much "variety" on a debut CD increases the odds of getting a hit. It can also be a good way to judge what kind of sound people want to hear from Patty and how the next CD should be done. It's marketing folks. - ----------------------- Keith writes, "So many crass reviews of her CD in trade publications is nauseatingly indicative of the state of radio" - --------------------- If I'm reading this right, I'd disagree. I'd say "what crass reviews?" Except for the No Depression article, all I've heard is how wonderful the CD is, and how great it is to see Patty "spread her wings". - ---------------------- Jess writes, "I went to the Lilith Fair last night, and just have to say... as great as it was to see the headliners, Sarah, Natalie, Indigo Girls, etc... I kept wondering where that feeling was, that butterfly in your stomach - tingle in your heart - feeling that you get when Patty is singing" - ------------------------ I'd never put down the money for Estropalooza. I HATE these "all-star" festival type of shows where you pay the bucks, go sit on the grass, and watch the show on a TV screen. Trying to hear over people talking and standing in your way. Especially these "folk" artists. They all have a couple of really intimate mellow songs that they try to pull off at these shows and every time it is a joke for everyone more than 10 rows back. It's a bummer that all these festival mean one less show for the artist at a more appropriate venue. - ---------------------- Jason writes, I guess I am the only one who thinks the song Tony sounds VERY CHEESY with those silly synthesized fake instruments in the background - ---------------------- No, you are not the only one. Listen to the bridge in Tony where it goes fro m mellow to rockin. It sounds like they were recorded on different days or something. Very poor transition. Bad production. My whole complaint on the new CD is the musicianship. If the CD does well, I'm sure they will give Patty a much better supporting cast and crew for the next release. - ---------------------- Sara writes, I seriously think that all of this bickering needs to stop now. I have been a part of this list practically since when it started and I don't think Patty is sitting at home writing music so that we can all go and kill each other over it. Why doesn't everyone just get over themselves and try to get along. - ---------------------- Personally, to me, this "bickering" is what makes the list worthwhile. It can get a little childish at times, but hashing out and sticking up for your own opinion is what makes this interesting for me. A lot of good points are brought up and sometimes it takes a little prodding to get to the point. It doesn't seem to me that things are out of control, and there is not any name-calling going on. I don't think Kevin and Mark want to hook up and straighten this out physically. So, go on. Stand up and be heard - ---------------------- Thanks for your time Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:35:17 -0700 From: "Victoria Chenevey" Subject: MM: Re: random replies Bill wrote (among other things): <<<>>>> Sounds a bit misogynistic to my sensitive ears. Those same ears agree with some of the comments on the music behind "Tony"; I love the song anyway because of the lyrics and Patty's voice. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:47:01 EDT From: JohnRN23@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: The album...revisted Well Jason, regarding the whole thing, I would love to have both an acoustic and a band copy of FR. I don't think Tony needs change, but I remember CHRISTINA and GOODBYE fondly as acoustic songs. The words brought tears to my eyes in concert, something that is lost in all the drumming and synthesizing. Ah well, que sera sera. :-) John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:48:24 EDT From: CaSerfer@aol.com Subject: MM: Reply to Bill....good thoughts to think over. O.K., some thoughful thoughts to Bill. I agree with most of what you said, standing up for an opinion and voicing all it's glory makes this posting fun. Did you ever think someone would feel differently about music? LOL Been debating music since middle school! What I don't agree with what you have said, Bill, is your complaint about "musicianship" on Flaming Red. Remember, this is a Patty Griffin cd, not a showcase for red hot guitarists and other solo performers. If the band was as important as the main singer/songwriter, Patty might change the band name to Patty Griffin and the Heartbreakers. When I buy a Patty Griffin cd, I want to hear HER story. My hope is that the cd was mostly of her production and tastes, not a record company's intuition, cigar chomping executive, or expert drummer's flavors. Not being there, I have to hope that the vision is Patty's. An Eddie VanHalen solo, or Neil Peart master percussion session would take the Flame out of Red. I mean, did you think that the siren in Let Him Fly was any less cheesy than what you called a "bad transition" in Tony? Let the words and music move you. If something doesn't sound right, it just may be the reaction Patty wanted you to have. Stranger things have been caught on analog. The muffled and occasional flubbed guitar parts in LVG made me shiver. Great thing about the music, we all have our opinions. God bless em and keep em coming! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:50:50 EDT From: CaSerfer@aol.com Subject: MM: Estropalooza! Victoria, I agree with you! Besides, Estroplaooza is good for the bones! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:58:28 -0300 From: David Lewis Subject: MM: Band vs. Solo I couldn't agree with Ron more. I think that the lyrics of Tony are made all the more powerful by the addition of the band. I think some people may just not like really loud, aggressive music, which is fine, but in the case of "Tony", it makes sense. I think the thing that all musicians should strive for is to communicate effectively... not to prescribe to one kind of sound only and use that for all of your material. In some cases, a little "testosterone" if you will is appropriate, in other cases, such as "Goodbye"it is not at all appropriate. I say, go with whatever works best for the song. I understand why many people don't like the loudness of "Tony", but personally, I think that whatever communicates most effectively is what one, as a musician, should go with. Why pigeon-hole yourself as a "folk" singer or a "singer-songwriter" or whatever? Songs with lines like "Bloddy pumps, dead girl" just don't sound very "folky" to me... indeed, they almost cry out for a few loud guitars. On the flip side of course are songs like Goodbye. I too was terribly disapointed by it's treatment on FR. When you hear the solo version, it just floats. It's intensely beautiful and lyrical. On the CD version however, you end up tapping your foot to the stupid drum beat. The drums are what really kill that tune for me on FR. I mean, it's still a beautiful song, but the drums really detract from the lyricism to me. Some keyboards and an extra guitar or two maybe, but that's all I wouold have added to it. Oh well :) You can't win them all. Anyway, I love "Estrogen" music as Bob would put it, but I also love "Testosterone" music at times too. I think you need both... you know, it's that whole "balance" thing :) Dave - ------------------------------------------- David Lewis - Graphic Designer dlewis@hfx.andara.com - ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:56:39 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: Re: Flames and Flaming Red. -Reply Sara, With all due respect, what you suggest would be boring. I don't really see any of this as unhealthy. It's an energetic exchange of ideas between people. Human nature being what it is there will always be differences of opinion. Nobody has been downright hostile or condesending which is a credit to the group mentality of this list. Personally I enjoy the banter :-) Regards, Mark Nashville,TN >>> "Sara" 07/07/98 11:30pm >>> I seriously think that all of this bickering needs to stop now. I have been a part of this list practically since when it started and I don't think Patty is sitting at home writing music so that we can all go and kill each other over it. Why doesn't everyone just get over themselves and try to get along. Sara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:17:23 -0400 From: Elaine Bean Subject: Re: MM: Re: Flames Mark Cicero wrote: > Nobody has been downright hostile or > condesending which is a credit to the group mentality of this list. > Personally I enjoy the banter :-) > Yeah, I will risk making a "Me too/I agree" list faux pas, but as long as things are kept civil, respectful, and intelligent like Mark says . . where's the harm? Isn't a list like this supposed to generate high quality opinions and discussion? Any cretin can post nastiness, but I think the people on this list are way beyond that juvenile mentality. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:13:35 -0700 From: "Allan M. Ayres" Subject: Re: MM: random replies What an excellent stack of email in my box this morning!! Like someone else said, keep it coming! Now I'll wade in on Tony: >Jason writes, >I guess I am the only one who thinks the song Tony >sounds VERY CHEESY with those silly synthesized fake instruments in the >background >---------------------- > >Bill replies: >No, you are not the only one. Listen to the bridge in Tony where it goes fro >m mellow to rockin. It sounds like they were recorded on different days or >something. Very poor transition. Bad production. Actually, I *liked* this transition, a lot. I can't believe it wasn't intentional: the tone goes from muffled to brassy right before the chorus, sort of from "mono car radio" sound to "$1000 stereo headphones" sound; a tambourine replaces the shaker and the drummer starts flailing away at a crash cymbal: and then Patty comes flying in with "Hey Tony". It grabs me by the throat, and it strikes me as a *good* production decision. I like it 100 times better than the part where the accompaniment drops away during the second chorus -- although I'm willing to give Patty and the producers the benefit of the doubt on that one too. >My whole complaint on >the new CD is the musicianship. If the CD does well, I'm sure they will >give Patty a much better supporting cast and crew for the next release. I dunno, I really don't have a problem with the musicianship. I think the drums are generally quite fine -- aside from the drum-machine drums, which are meant to sound like drum-machine drums -- and the rest of the instrumentation seems to me to do what it was supposed to do. Granted, there aren't many standout performances here, but it *is* a Patty-Griffin-with-studio-musicians record, not a Patty Griffin Band record (as someone else already said), and certainly not a Patty Griffin Jazz Quintet record. - --Allan ~~~~~~~~ Allan M. Ayres emdash@creative.net http://www.stanford.edu/~ayres ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:01:07 -0400 From: Elaine Bean Subject: MM: Moses Nothing at all to say (sorry for the wasted bandwidth) but I just wanted to post something with this very cool line from Moses in my sig. file. Elaine (I'm very silly today) (and bored) ~I don't necessarily buy any key to the future or happiness But I need a little place in the sun sometimes Or I think I will die~ ~ Patty Griffin ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:33:51 -0500 From: "Bill Diekmann" Subject: MM: off topic, but hilarious Sorry for being off topic, but this just killed me. check out http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/ Before you go though, write down the addresses to a couple of your favorite websites. It will blow you away. I'm going to try the Patty Lyric page although this may be sacrilege to some of you COME ON.....ITS FUN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:47:59 EDT From: CornflkGl@aol.com Subject: MM: hee hee..."Goodbye" in "jive" Good Lord... freaking hysterical... when I saw my/the lyrics site with this on it : "If ya' gots any problem viewin' dis page on yo' browser, please let me know ! Right on! " here's an incredibly funny transcription into "jive"... __Goodbye__ Occured t'me da damn oda' day You's've been gone now some couple years well, ah' guess it snatch'd while Fo' some sucka t'real disappear And ah' rememba' where ah' wuz When de wo'd came about ya' It wuz some day much likes today de sky wuz bright, and wide, and blue And ah' wonda' where ya' is And if de pain ends when ya' kick d' cud And ah' wonda' if dere wuz Some betta' way t'say baaaadbye Today mah' heart be big and so'e it's tryin' t'push right drough mah' skin ah' won't see ya' no mo' ah' guess dat's finally sinkin' in 'Cause ya' kin't make some fool see By de simple wo'ds ya' say All deir beauty fum widin Sometimes dey plum look away But ah' wonda' where ya' is And if de pain ends when ya' kick d' cud And ah' wonda' if dere wuz Some betta' way t'say baaaadbye From Flamin' Red ©1997 One Big Love Beat/Chrome Dog Beat (ASCAP) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:11:32 -0400 From: Mike Connell Subject: MM: MTV.com review of Flaming Red :-) Hi folks :-) Just found a nifty review of FR at the MTV web site at: http://www.mtv.com/mtv/music/reviews/griffin_red.html Mike :-) Patty Griffin Flaming Red (A&M) When Patty Griffin signed with A&M Records nearly four years ago, the label did what they'd do for any relatively inexperienced artist with a dynamic voice and intense songs -- they threw her in the studio with seasoned session players and hoped for radio-ready results. Unfortunately, Griffin left the sessions midway, admitting she lacked the confidence and experience it would have taken to add "bandleader" to her resume. A&M eventually agreed with Griffin's instincts and released her original solo acoustic demos as 1996's Living With Ghosts -- a sparse, but thoroughly stirring, set of strum 'n' sing anthems. As debuts go, it was a stunning and appropriate introduction to this rare singer/songwriter who could actually do both. Griffin went on to nicely fill the Lilith nation's acoustic niche without the help of radio, so there was little reason for fans, or perhaps even A&M, to anticipate anything other than an acoustic follow-up. But now, it appears all of the glowing press for Living With Ghosts and Griffin's growing live fanbase gave her the studio poise she lacked. For the folk purists who adopted Griffin, Flaming Red will be as disturbing as Dylan at Newport. It's not just electric, but is also, at times, downright heavy. And throughout, for better or worse, it's far more commercially accessible than Griffin fans could have expected. From the start, Griffin makes no effort to hide her makeover/evolution. In fact, the title track starts with a drum-stick count-off and swirling dual guitar line, only to introduce a harp riff so fast that it doubles as a Public Enemy-style siren. But vocally, Griffin is unfazed by the speed -- the phrasing is just as loose and vibrant as her acoustic work, only more energetic. And it's only the start of a brilliantly diverse four-song run that's sequenced ever-so-carefully to cover alternative ("Flaming Red"), AAA ("One Big Love"), rock ("Tony"), and Top 40 radio ("Change"). But, to her credit, none of the record's genre-jumps or scream to whisper vocal transitions seem forced. Griffin's unlocked confidence has clearly ushered in a sense of dynamism as well. And yet, for all the vocal subtleties buried within Griffin's pretty pop ("Christina") and casual country ("Mary"), a pair of raw rockers ("Tony" and "Wiggley Fingers") are undeniably Flaming Red's centerpieces. Because for as good as Griffin's Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt impressions may be, Flaming Red proves she does a better Patti Smith. First, by asking "Hey Tony, what's so good about dying," Griffin creates a compelling narrative around a gay high school student and delivers his story with both measured anger and obvious compassion. And while she spends the first half of the songs setting listeners up for an all-too-obvious retelling of Pearl Jam's "Jeremy," Griffin's anti-hero winds up killing himself, not his classmates. And that's lucky for Griffin, because she admits "I hated every day of high school/Funny I guess you did too/It's funny how I never knew/There I was sitting right behind you." Better yet, she gets even more introspective and decidedly more playful on "Wiggley Fingers," a bloozy tribute to carnality that unabashedly declares "I love to feel the little wiggley/I love the dirty little wiggley." But as singularly dumb and sexy as that chorus might be, it nonetheless hangs on Griffin's best hook to date -- a programmed semi-industrial sequence that drops out just long enough for a screaming Janis Joplin-style closing. Ultimately, whether Griffin's sulking or screaming, Flaming Red's overall victory doesn't so much actually hinge on electric vs. acoustic, tender folk vs. radio accessibility, or focus vs. diversity. Instead, the album find its beauty in a voice, a few rough edges and a batch of above average songs -- the exact formula that made Living with Ghosts so attractive the first time around. And in that, it's damn near the ultimate sophomore record. Apparently, all it took was a little confidence. - -- Andy Langer ******** * The Patty Griffin/Mad-Mission@smoe List Homepage is at: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/pattyg.htm * * Rachel Martin's Patty Griffin Lyrics Archive is at * http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/3079/patty.html * * Jerry Zigmont's Flaming Red - A Patty Griffin Website is at * http://w3.nai.net/~zigmont * * DuckOfPrey or WhyADuck55 on AOL or AOL Instant Messenger ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #193 *********************************