From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #108 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttour.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com/road/index.html * and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Sunday, April 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 108 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: Judging Patty [RockinRonD ] MM: New vs. Old ["Elaine F. Bean" ] Re: MM: New vs. Old [David Lewis ] Re: MM: Judging Patty [Mooodeee ] Re: MM: Judging Patty [David Lewis ] Re: MM: Judging Patty [Mike Acerbo ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:33:02 EDT From: RockinRonD Subject: MM: Judging Patty Wow! Quite a controversial thread we have going for such a list in its infancy. To begin, I agree with Joe Luca...we should be tolerant of everyone's point of view, even if their posting seems somewhat emotional and knee-jerk. I think we all understand that LWG is one of those rare things in music--songs that were never meant to be published that way, somehow reach the public and VOILA! they find an audience and a loyal, passionate following is born. No doubt, LWG exposes the raw talent of a songwriter/singer more than a few steps above. On the other hand, I have always been leery of Patty's second effort because of the expectations I can't fend off after living with LWG for so long. LWG is impossibly good. The new album, of which I've heard none of, with studio musicians up the kazoo, can only serve to impair that raw, gutsy, earthy sensibility of LWG. But as fans we have to be patient and let Patty go through her growing pains. Dar's latest album is my least favorite and I find most of the songs shallow compared to her first two. But I (and most of the DarList) have not given up on her. Let's try to do the same for Patty. Ron NP (Now PLaying on my CD): Townes Van Zandt: For The Sake of the Song ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:30:37 -0400 From: "Elaine F. Bean" Subject: MM: New vs. Old Hi, It's so hard not to make comparisons between an artists music- but I (and I'd venture to say everyone on this list) will keep an open mind and realize that an artist is constantly experimenting, growing, learning, and evolving. Each product of such a phase is unique - should an artist not experiment and grow for fear that the final result will be not be pleasing to everyone? Is "stagnancy" preferable? I hope not! Just my 2 cents. :) Patty's musical talents are incredible sources of pleasure for me. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:50:27 -0300 From: David Lewis Subject: Re: MM: New vs. Old >Is "stagnancy" preferable? I hope not! Of course not. Patty tried to make an album with a full band for Living With Ghosts but it didn't turn out so well, so they released the demos. I think it's absolutely imperative that you experiment with new sounds, ideas etc, but the end result still has to be great on it's own terms. So Patty has a made a second attempt at a full band album and I can only assume that it is much better than the original LWG attempt. According to *some* who have heard it, it still not quite right, but I'll reserve judgement until I heard it for myself. I think it's great that Patty is doing something new on this album, but if it's not, in my opinion, a good album on it's own terms (there's not much point in comparing it to LWG) then it's just not a good album. Perhaps Patty just needs more time to get used to working with other musicians. I don't know, as I say, I'll wait till I heard Flaming Red before passing judgement. - ---------------------------------------- Graphic Design - Multimedia - Web Design email: dlewis@accesscable.net web: http://mypage.accesscable.net/~dlewis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:10:44 EDT From: Mooodeee Subject: Re: MM: Judging Patty << The new album, of which I've heard none of, with studio musicians up the kazoo, can only serve to impair that raw, gutsy, earthy sensibility of LWG. >> Hey Mad Missionaries, Perhaps I can help with this thread. Anyone who knows me knows that I am about as purist as they come when it comes to my love for singer/songwriters, and especially Patty. Voice and guitar. Nothing else. But aside from being a purist and a minimalist listener--- I also work for a record label. And I can tell you that the reason for the full band and overproduction of Patty's "Flaming Red," Dar's "End of the Summer", and at least two or 3 cds from some chick who won some grammys recently by the name of Shawn Colvin, that the reason for the pop-ridden overproduction of what is otherwise brilliantly pure, stems from ignorant power-flexing piss-headed Music Directors and the brainless mentality of pop radio, and the grip of the dollar-holding musically uneducated masses with extremely short attention spans for anything highly intimate and emotional, and musically pure. (::whew::: that felt good to get out of my system! No pent aggression for the radio business for me, wouldnt you say?) If you have ever made radio calls for a record label then you would know instantly why things happen the way they do. I have found that within the music industry, ultimatley the people with the power to make or break artists are the music directors who decide the programming at your everyday run-of- the-mill hometown radio stations (as well as the big ones). They are presented with an enormous amount of new music almost to the point of bombardment, and will look for ANY excuse in the book for NOT adding an artist to their programming playlist. And I can tell you that on a consistent basis, the fault they would find in LWG is that it is underproduced, and isnt strong enough to carry the Hot AC/pop radio format (which is your money-making and superstar making format). They most likely told the persons making Patty's radio calls that LWG didnt fit their format because it needed full production with a band (in their opinion) in order for it to go over well for their listening audience. Therefore, they would not play her. That is primarily for the Hot AC stations---yes, most of you may have heard of Patty thanks to play on AAA stations, but as you know, their format is inconsistent, and doesnt always have an impact on top 40 radio (which is the reason we purists love them! hehehe, but that is beside the point.) After having spoken with Michael Baker last July at a dinnertable at Katz's Deli in Austin at 3 in the morning, his vision for "Flaming Red" was one of compromise to the criticisms of the music industry. He said that with a fully produced cd comes the opportunity for widespread radio acceptance and financial success, and that Patty deserves to achieve that. I dont want to sound like I am bursting anyone's bubble who is a purist (because God knows that I am a purist when it comes to Patty's music). But all of us should consider the big picture, and allow this metamorphasis to happen. In the vein of Shawn Colvin, where if anyone has been a fan of hers for over 10 years knows what I am talking about. There is such a sad thing as artistic compromise for the sake of financial success. But that doesn't always mean that it destroys the very essence of the music that we and the artist themselves truly love. Shawn still, on most occaisions, plays relatively small intimate venues with just her and her guitar, and this is in spite of her full-band tours and worldwide full-band-produced radio success. So for the purists, all is not lost. Have faith, bite the bullet, sacrifice what we must, and have some sympathy and understanding that it has to be this way in order for the artists to achieve financial success. Some might call it selling out, but knowing what I know about the way things work, it isnt very fair to say that. If you choose to place blame, blame the music directors of radio stations who refused to add LWG based on what it was---pure. Yours from Austin, Mimi Alidor "Are you out there, can you hear this? ... I was out there listening all the time." - --Dar Williams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:40:20 -0300 From: David Lewis Subject: Re: MM: Judging Patty That was a wonderful post Mooodeee. It is true of course that plain old voice and guitar with one mic and no edits is a tough sell in our "fast-food" culture. It's just up to the artist I suppose do either do what they want and remain a relatively small name (or a big name in a small niche) or compromise a bit in order to make a better living. However, I don't think Patty is making any compromises. From what I've heard, Patty *wanted* to make this album with a full band. I've read or heard a number of times that she was very excited about the idea of working with a band. So I don't think she "sold out". I think that for the most part, she's still doing her thing. Then again, if she is "selling out" I agree with Michael Baker that she deserves it. She isn't a young 20-something with a career just falling in her lap. She's been around and I get the feeling that she's had a hard go of it. She deserves all the success she can get. But I really don't think she is "selling out." I love Patty's first CD. It's amazing. But it is possible to have something "produced" without there being any kind of sacrifice. It's just a different medium than solo voice and guitar. The "produced" medium can still be profound on it's own terms. For instance, I have all of Shawn Colvin's CD's and while I love them all, I would have to say that her latest CD is the best. It is a true work of art. She won those grammy awards because she did some incredible work, not because she created "pop" music. It is possible to have both. Even Mozart's symphonies started out as little more than a tune in Wolfgang's head. Orchestrating the tune doesn't make it any less brilliant... as long as the orchestration is also brilliant. That said, Mozart wrote for all kinds of different mediums... full orchestra, solo piano, voice and piano. You name it. It would be nice if Patty could do the same... a solo album here, a fully "orchestrated" album there, an acoustic album... whatever. I guess what I'm saying is, while I dissagree that an artist's music is "sacrificed" as soon as you add a band, I agree that the lack of variety created by the music industry is a very sad thing. - ---------------------------------------- Graphic Design - Multimedia - Web Design email: dlewis@accesscable.net web: http://mypage.accesscable.net/~dlewis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:53:21 -0700 From: Mike Acerbo Subject: Re: MM: Judging Patty Hey Mimi, My quarm with the production of this album would not have been as great had the overproduced songs actually been great songs. But these are just good songs that were once incredible. I doubt we'll be hearing much of "Red" on the radio at all. "Tony" might be the exception, but the subject matter may turn radio stations off.... I hope I'm wrong and Patty does reach a greater audience though. Then she would be more free artistically to pursue what she wants to pursue......Mike Mooodeee wrote: > << The new album, of which I've heard > none of, with studio musicians up the kazoo, can only serve to impair that > raw, gutsy, earthy sensibility of LWG. >> > > Hey Mad Missionaries, > Perhaps I can help with this thread. Anyone who knows me knows that I am > about as purist as they come when it comes to my love for singer/songwriters, > and especially Patty. Voice and guitar. Nothing else. > > But aside from being a purist and a minimalist listener--- I also work for a > record label. And I can tell you that the reason for the full band and > overproduction of Patty's "Flaming Red," Dar's "End of the Summer", and at > least two or 3 cds from some chick who won some grammys recently by the name > of Shawn Colvin, that the reason for the pop-ridden overproduction of what is > otherwise brilliantly pure, stems from ignorant power-flexing piss-headed > Music Directors and the brainless mentality of pop radio, and the grip of the > dollar-holding musically uneducated masses with extremely short attention > spans for anything highly intimate and emotional, and musically pure. > (::whew::: that felt good to get out of my system! No pent aggression for the > radio business for me, wouldnt you say?) > > If you have ever made radio calls for a record label then you would know > instantly why things happen the way they do. I have found that within the > music industry, ultimatley the people with the power to make or break artists > are the music directors who decide the programming at your everyday run-of- > the-mill hometown radio stations (as well as the big ones). They are > presented with an enormous amount of new music almost to the point of > bombardment, and will look for ANY excuse in the book for NOT adding an artist > to their programming playlist. And I can tell you that on a consistent basis, > the fault they would find in LWG is that it is underproduced, and isnt strong > enough to carry the Hot AC/pop radio format (which is your money-making and > superstar making format). They most likely told the persons making Patty's > radio calls that LWG didnt fit their format because it needed full production > with a band (in their opinion) in order for it to go over well for their > listening audience. Therefore, they would not play her. That is primarily > for the Hot AC stations---yes, most of you may have heard of Patty thanks to > play on AAA stations, but as you know, their format is inconsistent, and > doesnt always have an impact on top 40 radio (which is the reason we purists > love them! hehehe, but that is beside the point.) > > After having spoken with Michael Baker last July at a dinnertable at Katz's > Deli in Austin at 3 in the morning, his vision for "Flaming Red" was one of > compromise to the criticisms of the music industry. He said that with a fully > produced cd comes the opportunity for widespread radio acceptance and > financial success, and that Patty deserves to achieve that. I dont want to > sound like I am bursting anyone's bubble who is a purist (because God knows > that I am a purist when it comes to Patty's music). But all of us should > consider the big picture, and allow this metamorphasis to happen. In the vein > of Shawn Colvin, where if anyone has been a fan of hers for over 10 years > knows what I am talking about. There is such a sad thing as artistic > compromise for the sake of financial success. But that doesn't always mean > that it destroys the very essence of the music that we and the artist > themselves truly love. Shawn still, on most occaisions, plays relatively > small intimate venues with just her and her guitar, and this is in spite of > her full-band tours and worldwide full-band-produced radio success. So for > the purists, all is not lost. Have faith, bite the bullet, sacrifice what we > must, and have some sympathy and understanding that it has to be this way in > order for the artists to achieve financial success. Some might call it > selling out, but knowing what I know about the way things work, it isnt very > fair to say that. If you choose to place blame, blame the music directors of > radio stations who refused to add LWG based on what it was---pure. > > Yours from Austin, > Mimi Alidor > > "Are you out there, can you hear this? ... I was out there listening all the > time." > --Dar Williams ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #108 *********************************