From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #60 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttour.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com/road/index.html * and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Friday, March 6 1998 Volume 02 : Number 060 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MM: tony [hooligan ] Re: MM: tony [David Lewis ] Re: MM: tony [ZIAD_TOUBASSY@bm.com] MM: Fwd: Austin's NEWest Acquisition!! [Mooodeee ] MM: Tony [Chris Kornmann ] Re: MM: tony [David Lewis ] MM: Tony lyrics [AS IS143 ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:03:48 -0800 (PST) From: hooligan Subject: Re: MM: tony there *is* a message in Tony which seems to be the observation that we all co-exist in a world wherein we are sadly surrounded by many souls to which we sense no connection. She spent every day for years sitting behind 'Tony' in school ('staring at the back of his head') yet ultimately knew nothing about him - his pain, struggles, loves, hopes, or even his favorite color for that matter. Only years later, upon returning home does she learn of his tragic fate in a newspaper article. i suppose that every lyric/poem/artwork is open to interpretation, and just as you don't see the same message that i might - i don't take offense (or find these lyrics detrimental in the least bit) to this particular song. obviously we are each sensitive on different levels, some moreso than others. On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, David Lewis wrote: > I feel the same way. Basically the song leaves me wondering exactly what > Patty is saying about the whole tragic event. It could be a great song, > slurs and all, if there were a clear message or an attempt at understanding > but all she really seems to say, as far as I can tell, is that this guy > named Tony (real person, real name, with real people who loved him) had > breasts like a girl, called himself a "little faggot" and shot himself and > what the hell did he do a stupid thing like that for? Judging from the rest > of her music, I can't imagine that Patty's intentions are anything but > positive but unfortunately the lyrics do not make that very clear. I do not > know the exact statistics, but an alarming number of suicides are gay > males. With that in mind and the rather unclear message or lack of any > message in "Tony" accompanied by the various slurs, I think the song is > potentially very hurtful... even if that was not it's intention, which I > don't think it was. I imagine that it will certainly horrify Tony's parents > when they hear it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:51:36 -0400 From: David Lewis Subject: Re: MM: tony Your interpretation actually helps quite a bit. I am at the distinct disadvantage of only having heard the song once and only being able to recall the lyrics in bits and pieces. For instance, I did not realize that she only heard about what happened to Tony years later upon returning home and reading a newspaper article (why the media would publish such a story is another question... suicides are almost never and should never be reported). I can imagine now how much of a shock it must have been to come home and find out that this guy you sat behind for years but never got to know killed himself. Dispite having sat so close to him for years, she had no idea that he suffered such pain and confusion. Nonetheless, with lines like "breasts like a girl" and "that little faggot staring back at him" I did not pick up on that upon first listening and the Dar post demonstrates that I am not the only one that was left a little confused and troubled by that song. So I think that there is a problem with the song being somewhat unclear in it's message. And yes, you are right that, of course, we are all sensitive on different levels. Not too long ago, someone very dear to me commited suicide when he discovered that he was gay. >there *is* a message in Tony which seems to be the observation that we >all co-exist in a world wherein we are sadly surrounded by many souls to >which we sense no connection. She spent every day for years sitting >behind 'Tony' in school ('staring at the back of his head') yet >ultimately knew nothing about him - his pain, struggles, loves, hopes, or >even his favorite color for that matter. Only years later, upon >returning home does she learn of his tragic fate in a newspaper article. > >i suppose that every lyric/poem/artwork is open to interpretation, and >just as you don't see the same message that i might - i don't take >offense (or find these lyrics detrimental in the least bit) to this >particular song. obviously we are each sensitive on different levels, >some moreso than others. > >On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, David Lewis wrote: > >> I feel the same way. Basically the song leaves me wondering exactly what >> Patty is saying about the whole tragic event. It could be a great song, >> slurs and all, if there were a clear message or an attempt at understanding >> but all she really seems to say, as far as I can tell, is that this guy >> named Tony (real person, real name, with real people who loved him) had >> breasts like a girl, called himself a "little faggot" and shot himself and >> what the hell did he do a stupid thing like that for? Judging from the rest >> of her music, I can't imagine that Patty's intentions are anything but >> positive but unfortunately the lyrics do not make that very clear. I do not >> know the exact statistics, but an alarming number of suicides are gay >> males. With that in mind and the rather unclear message or lack of any >> message in "Tony" accompanied by the various slurs, I think the song is >> potentially very hurtful... even if that was not it's intention, which I >> don't think it was. I imagine that it will certainly horrify Tony's parents >> when they hear it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:05:36 -0500 From: ZIAD_TOUBASSY@bm.com Subject: Re: MM: tony - --IMA.Boundary.245702988 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Re: this whole "Tony" issue, I think we're being a little quick to judge. When I saw Patty perform this song a couple weeks ago, she prefaced by saying that she had a horrible high school experience and there was this boy who everyone teased and after the fact she wished she'd known what was going on with him and maybe they could have helped each other out. I think the "breasts like a girl" bit is sort of Patty channeling her unenlightened high school self...she thought at the time that it was OK to rag on this kid, etc. And in the song, doesn't she use "fag" and "faggot" to refer to what Tony's thinking about himself. From what I know from friends, etc., a lot of gay folks have to fight their own prejudice against homosexuality when dealing with coming out -- hence, I think, Patty's point. Just my two cents. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: MM: tony Author: David Lewis at Internet Date: 3/6/98 2:08 AM annonymously quoted to Mad Mission from a Dar list post. >In "Tony" (song >about a high school acquaintance who is gay who kills himself) she uses >the words "faggot" and "fag". I interpret the song to be that she >identifies with Tony in his isolation and aloneness and that she wishes >that they had both found ways to reach out across that gulf to connect >with one another. But I am still left wondering and slightly disturbed. > >While the use of slurs is very hard-hitting and gripping, I'm am still >left with a knot in my stomach when they are not tied directly to a >strong social justice message. (As in, Jewel's "Pieces of You".) Maybe >its just another level of my own internalized heterosexism. My prayers >are that Patty's intentions are positive and healing for our world. I feel the same way. Basically the song leaves me wondering exactly what Patty is saying about the whole tragic event. It could be a great song, slurs and all, if there were a clear message or an attempt at understanding but all she really seems to say, as far as I can tell, is that this guy named Tony (real person, real name, with real people who loved him) had breasts like a girl, called himself a "little faggot" and shot himself and what the hell did he do a stupid thing like that for? Judging from the rest of her music, I can't imagine that Patty's intentions are anything but positive but unfortunately the lyrics do not make that very clear. I do not know the exact statistics, but an alarming number of suicides are gay males. With that in mind and the rather unclear message or lack of any message in "Tony" accompanied by the various slurs, I think the song is potentially very hurtful... even if that was not it's intention, which I don't think it was. I imagine that it will certainly horrify Tony's parents when they hear it. - --IMA.Boundary.245702988 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Received: from yandr-bh.yr.com (206.33.89.129) by smtp1.yr.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 00318CEB; Fri, 6 Mar 98 01:24:08 - -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by yandr-bh.yr.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id BAA29312 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:23:57 -0500 Received: from cambridge-mail-router2.netops.gte.com by yandr-bh.yr.com via smap (3.2) id xma029293; Fri, 6 Mar 98 01:23:41 -0500 Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by netops.gte.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18765 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] (root) by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yAqXV-0006fp-00; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:23:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id BAA16779; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:15:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id BAA16649 for mad-mission-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.accesscable.net (CDR28-6.accesscable.net [24.138.28.6]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id BAA16645 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [24.138.27.35] (CDR27-35.accesscable.net [24.138.27.35]) by mail.accesscable.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA24706 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:08:56 -0400 (AST) X-Sender: dlewis@pop.accesscable.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <99BA3CC61477D111AB3E0000F8066BAB39706B@nt.dma.state.ma.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 02:08:06 -0400 To: mad-mission@smoe.org From: David Lewis Subject: MM: tony Sender: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org Precedence: bulk - --IMA.Boundary.245702988-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:21:36 EST From: Mooodeee Subject: MM: Fwd: Austin's NEWest Acquisition!! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_889194096_boundary Content-ID: <0_889194096@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_889194096_boundary Content-ID: <0_889194096@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Mooodeee Return-path: To: small-repairs@smoe.org Subject: Austin's NEWest Acquisition!! Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:05:44 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit PATTY GRIFFIN!!!!!!! Yes Dee, Patty's moved to Austin!! YAY!!! All we need now is Dar, Jonatha, and Lucy we will be all set;-) Gotta love this town! Shawn fans who are Patty fans (who are near here)... come to Patty's Cactus Cafe show Saturday (tomorrow). Shawn is going to be there. You better get there early cause tickets are only at the door and they will go fast. (Sarah) It's a venue that holds ony about 150 people. A few of us listers are going to be there too. I can't wait. (Jean... when are you getting here?) Mimi ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Now Playing: Dar Williams "End of the Summer" - --part0_889194096_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:59:49 -0400 From: Chris Kornmann Subject: MM: Tony While Patty's lyrics are certainly open for interpretation, I feel that she is pretty straight forward in her writing, especially in a song like "Tony." Get past the slurs and you will find a strong social message. The song is about a very sad and tragic situation of a boy named Tony who commits suicide. Why? Simply because he was gay. It has to do with Tony's feelings about his own sexuality and the way society views homosexuality. Obviously, he was filled with self-hatred for being gay. Where does this hatred come from? It comes from the views that society has about homosexuals. When she refers to "that little faggot staring back at him" she is certainly using it in a derogatory way because that is how Tony viewed himself...as a little faggot. He was probably called that all is life and finally started to believe that was all he was and all that he would ever be. The message is loud and clear: How sad that he could not bear to live in this world just because he was gay. Life is worth much more than someone's sexual preference. I cannot believe that in this day and age we still cannot accept people for who and what they are. That, to me is her message. I don't understand why people would think that the song is hurtful. It is very honest and in this case, the truth hurts. It is better to talk about it then to ignore it, hoping it'll just go away. That never solves anything. Chris Kornmann chrisk@cmj.com >On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, David Lewis wrote: > >I feel the same way. Basically the song leaves me wondering exactly what >Patty is saying about the whole tragic event. It could be a great song, >slurs and all, if there were a clear message or an attempt at understanding >but all she really seems to say, as far as I can tell, is that this guy >named Tony (real person, real name, with real people who loved him) had >breasts like a girl, called himself a "little faggot" and shot himself and >what the hell did he do a stupid thing like that for? Judging from the rest >of her music, I can't imagine that Patty's intentions are anything but >positive but unfortunately the lyrics do not make that very clear. I do not >know the exact statistics, but an alarming number of suicides are gay >males. With that in mind and the rather unclear message or lack of any >message in "Tony" accompanied by the various slurs, I think the song is >potentially very hurtful... even if that was not it's intention, which I >don't think it was. I imagine that it will certainly horrify Tony's parents >when they hear it. >annonymously quoted to Mad Mission from a Dar list post. >In "Tony" (song >about a high school acquaintance who is gay who kills himself) she uses >the words "faggot" and "fag". I interpret the song to be that she >identifies with Tony in his isolation and aloneness and that she wishes >that they had both found ways to reach out across that gulf to connect >with one another. But I am still left wondering and slightly disturbed. > >While the use of slurs is very hard-hitting and gripping, I'm am still >left with a knot in my stomach when they are not tied directly to a >strong social justice message. (As in, Jewel's "Pieces of You".) Maybe >its just another level of my own internalized heterosexism. My prayers >are that Patty's intentions are positive and healing for our world. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:56:34 -0400 From: David Lewis Subject: Re: MM: tony > Re: this whole "Tony" issue, I think we're being a little quick to > judge.... I suppose you're right. The problem is that I only got to hear it once and I don't fully recall all of Patty's prelude remarks or lyrics. *********************************** Graphic Design - Multimedia - Web Design email: dlewis@accesscable.net web: http://mypage.accesscable.net/~dlewis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:13:47 EST From: AS IS143 Subject: MM: Tony lyrics hi all, with all the talk about this song i thought id try and write down the lyrics for all of you:) kate ps feel free to correct them, i know that there are a few lines that i cant completly figure out.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tony by Patty Griffin her intro on the tape: "Back in my early 20's i went back to my town in Maine and i opened up a news paper and i read this little, small article on someone that i'd gone to highschoool with who i didnt know much about although he did sit in front of me for four years of my life." does anyone remember tony a quiet boy, little over-wieght he had breasts like a girl when i wasnt too busy feeling lonely i'd stare over his shoulder at a map of the world he always finished all his homework raised his hand in homerooom ??.......................?? attendence with the pledge alligence to the ? chorus: hey tony whats so good about dying he said i think i might do a little dying today he looked in the mirror and saw that little faggot starin back at em pulled out a gun and blew himself away i hated every day of highschool its funny i guess you did too its funny how i never knew there i was sitting right behind you they wrote it in the local rag death comes to the local fag i guess you finally stopped believing that any hope would ever find you well i know that story i was sitting right behind you hey tony whats so good about dying he said i think i might do a little dying today he looked in the mirror and saw that little faggot starin back at em pulled out a gun and blew himself away hey tony whats so good about dying dying hey tony whats so good about dying dying hey tony whats so good about dying he said i think i might do a little dying today he looked in the mirror and saw that little faggot starin back at em pulled out a gun and blew himself away pulled out a gun and blew himself away pulled out a gun and blew himself away tony.. ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #60 ********************************