From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V6 #36 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.quackquack.net/pattyg * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V4 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Tuesday, February 5 2002 Volume 06 : Number 036 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MM: Re: New vs. Used. [Linda ] RE: MM: 1000 Kisses - MORE first impressions ["Scheiner, Andy" ] Re: MM: Re: New vs. Used. ["Matt Ward" ] Re: MM: dollars and tunes [Tricia9999@aol.com] MM: Re: dollars and tunes NPC:Martina Sorbara ["Eugene Wendland" ] [none] [Bilbo Baggins ] MM: (no subject) [Kaycee973@aol.com] MM:NPC:John Mayer ["Mare :-)" ] MM: Not That I'm Not Equally Self-Righteous, But... [Richard Challen Subject: Re: MM: Re: New vs. Used. Regarding purchasing only used (vs. new) CDs, some > cheap guy writes: > > > > >> is this wrong? << > > Of course it is. And -- in my opinion -- you have at least some guilt about it, or you wouldn't be asking. So if you're looking for justification for your disingenuous actions, you're not going to find it here.<< I disagree. The artist has made the money on selling the first (well the record company has made most of it). I regularly buy second hand CDs from second hand CD dealers (who make a genuine business out of the practice). Yes I too buy all Eleanor McEvoy's CDs as soon as they come out after my first second hand purchase of her work :0)I've bought many CDs from new after first sampling the artist through a second hand album. I've also bought them new after having friends give me taped copies, or boots.I hear people on mailing lists recommend an artist but their taste may not be the same as mine so I like to sample. I don't object to regular music buffs following these practices. We're not the ones who stuff the artists. We leave that to the record companies. linda - one cheap lady with no regrets Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:17:23 -0500 From: "Scheiner, Andy" Subject: RE: MM: 1000 Kisses - MORE first impressions Hi All, For those of you asking at what store in NYC I found the CD: Sorry if I gave the impression that I live in NYC - I don't. The record store at which I found it is in NYC, however, I live in Charlottesville, VA. Basically, I just got -VERY- lucky (I didn't even have to drive to NYC, but I might have made the road trip - although I would have had a hard time explaining this to my wife [who is also a Patty fan] - "just running out to the record store for a copy of Patty's new CD - back in about 20..." and, in a quiet mumble, as my voice trails off "...hours"). The NYC store in question ( http://stoozrecords.com ), had a listing on their eBay store (http://www.ebaystores.com/stoozrecords ) for the advance copy. For those of you unfamiliar with eBay, certain items are listed for sale as a pure auction transaction (goes to highest bidder with a fixed end time/date on the auction), while other items have a "Buy it Now" option, where, if you're willing to meet the seller's asking price, you can purchase it immediately without competing against other bidders (this option disappears as soon as the first bid [of an amount less than the "Buy it Now" price"] is placed, however). So, last Wednesday afternoon I needed a little break from writing software, so I went for a little virtual browse on eBay & there it was, a "Buy it Now" advance copy of 1000 Kisses for $29.95 with no bids yet entered!! It shipped on Thursday and arrived in Saturday's mail. I don't mean this paragraph to be a plug for Stooz Records - I've never done business with them before, so I cannot say much about them (although they did process the transaction quickly). Nor do I know how they obtained the CD, but, for those of you so inclined, I guess it can't hurt to give them a call or email to see if they can track down other copies. For those of you who want to come for a listen this weekend: Well, I'm game to host y'all - where "y'all" is some number less than 15 or 20 ;-) - can't be too many of you within driving distance of the Charlottesville area, right? We just had my son's 7th birthday party at our house (he wanted it at home, and we were either very, very brave or very, very stupid) with about 16 six- & seven-year-olds, so, I suppose, it couldn't be any worse than that!! Come by around 4PM on Saturday - I'll get the pizza's and sodas (and you can all bring the Table Talk Pies). RSVP me for directions. For those of you asking about "Long Road": Yes, it is the song formerly known as "Long Ride Home" -----Original Message----- From: Mare :-) [mailto:mare4682@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 7:15 PM To: Scheiner, Andy; marc_hertz@hotmail.com; mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: RE: MM: 1000 Kisses - MORE first impressions Umm, well, you can all come over to my house this weekend for a listen - does Table Talk pies deliver? I am not sure that they deliver, but you know if you are in NYC I would be driving right through Worcester, home of Table Talk Pies, to get there so I could pick up as many as you want.....I am so jealous, my sister works in the promotions department at a record label and so she does plenty of "trades" with other companies but she has yet to track down anyone from ATO..... > _____ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:56:25 +0000 (GMT) From: adamk@zoom.co.uk Subject: MM: Old vs New Over on this side of the pond, unless you're buying chart material, if you're looking for something out of the ordinary, you can expect to pay around #17 sterling for a cd -- that's something like US$25! Even ordering over the net has its problems: if you buy from the individual artists' sites, the shipping costs to England can cripple you. Added to which, my last batch of cd's from the States got held up at the post office while Customs & Excise demanded their cut (apparently, all the ordering I'd done before that hadn't been taxed had been "lucky"). This added significantly to the cost and the hassle. Second-hand places are the refuge of the adventurous, as well as the broke. In my favourite place, here in London, everything is piled in a wonderfully eclectic tangle with little regard to order or category, and the low prices have allowed me to experiment and discover music that, otherwise, I'd never get a chance to without selling a kidney. It's here that I've stumbled across Dar Williams, Catie Curtis, Melissa Ferrick, Heather Eatman, Lida Huzik, Jill Sobule -- all for under a fiver each. And here's the thing: If I like them, I buy their new material new, as well as pay to see them in concert. I spread the word, I buy their material for people who I think might like it (I made a mix for an Aussie friend with a couple of Patty songs on it --- another grey area to get froth-mouthed about -- and she's since gone out and bought the albums). I got my first Patty cd from a second-hand place in NYC (yep - I'm cheap all over the world). I got my next, full price, over the internet from America. It works like that. And you know what, Ron? This is one thing I DON'T lose sleep over. adam k. Get your own zoom email - click here - http://www.zoom.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:51:57 -0800 (PST) From: fotographix Subject: MM: dollars and tunes my $.02 worth: $.01) everyone is entitled to an opinion, but until you are in the music industry, that opinion should not be used as a moral guideline for the rest of us (that said, you probably shouldn't read on since i myself have never created anything remotely like music- i don't play guitar, bass, drums; i play the CD.) $.02) probably the best possible thing for a musician is exposure. i have sent people copies of LFML, and yes, i have thrown in a studio cut on a mix for a friend. *I* would say that this is not robbing Patty of the $.30 she would have made on the sale (yes, also the support from her label), but rather contributing to a potential sale. think opportunity cost; in this case i buy the blank, and she gets another person to hear her stuff. there would be NO sale at all if there wasn't a potential one first. now, here comes the philosophy part... i am *certain* that patty works very hard for her money. i have seen her tour dates and i have a good idea of what it is like (friends have told me) to record. it must all be pretty grueling. HOWEVER, i too work pretty hard for my money, and until such time as i have 'disposable income', i cannot afford to just buy copies of the albums for friends. as for myself, hell yes i buy used CDs. i'm 23 and lots of months i have under $50 once i subtract basic expenses (rent, health care, food, gas). i agree with the new car analogy- moreover i can't see how anyone could be against used CD sales. as for the 'promo/do not resell' CDs, i think there is probably a problem. nobody should *make* money on a sale where the disc was actually given to the radio station, etc. that is why they say 'don't resell'. i have not personally run into many of those. ANYWAY, this post has gone on long enough, but i would like to thank everybody for participating. it is nice to see people actually thinking rather than just living along in a daze. also, i as much as a love all the buzz on mad mission, i have to say that the idea of Jen's threaded discusion board on pattygriffin.net makes my spine tingle. my inbox is filling up and i can't keep track of all the virutal conversations here! Be Well, Foto Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:41:28 -0800 From: "Matt Ward" Subject: Re: MM: Re: New vs. Used. So let me get this straight: If I buy a CD that I don't like, the moral thing for me to do is destroy it so as not to rip off the artist? I can't just throw it away, it might fall into the hands of some nefarious music pirate sifting through the garbage at the city dump. Following this line of reasoning, if I buy a pair of pants and then gain ten pounds (okay, so maybe it was twenty) should I burn the pants so that the seamstress isn't cheated out of selling a new pair? Only a moron--or Jack Valenti, but perhaps that's redundant--would support this argument. I'm an author and I welcome the sale of used copies of my books and I have no problem with people sharing a single copy of my book. My career will ultimately be built on creating a fan base, so I'd much rather have someone who doesn't care for my books (this is purely theoretical you understand) either pass it on, or sell it, to someone who might. In the context of this list, this debate is particularly specious as my guess is that the average person on this list will buy something like 2.4 copies of 1000 kisses. As for the fact that this was a promo copy; given the lather that we're all worked into over the fact that someone's getting hear these tracks early, I'd say this particularly promo copy did an exemplary job! Matt Ward - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:46 AM Subject: Re: MM: Re: New vs. Used. > Regarding purchasing only used (vs. new) CDs, some > > cheap guy writes: > > > > > > >> is this wrong? << > > > > Of course it is. And -- in my opinion -- you have > at least some guilt about it, or you wouldn't be > asking. So if you're looking for justification for > your disingenuous actions, you're not going to > find it here.<< > > I disagree. The artist has made the money on selling > the first (well the record company has made most of > it). I regularly buy second hand CDs from second hand > CD dealers (who make a genuine business out of the > practice). > > Yes I too buy all Eleanor McEvoy's CDs as soon as they > come out after my first second hand purchase of her > work :0)I've bought many CDs from new after first > sampling the artist through a second hand album. I've > also bought them new after having friends give me > taped copies, or boots.I hear people on mailing lists > recommend an artist but their taste may not be the > same as mine so I like to sample. I don't object to > regular music buffs following these practices. We're > not the ones who stuff the artists. We leave that to > the record companies. > > linda - one cheap lady with no regrets > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:52:16 EST From: Tricia9999@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: dollars and tunes Can I assume that those who don't buy used cds also refuse to buy used books? Tricia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:04:50 -0500 From: "Eugene Wendland" Subject: MM: Re: dollars and tunes NPC:Martina Sorbara > ANYWAY, this post has gone on long enough, but i would > like to thank everybody for participating. it is nice > to see people actually thinking rather than just > living along in a daze. yeah, i agree, so lets move on to the new artist category. Check out Martina Sorbara at http://www.martinasorbara.com . Her second cd, Cure for Bad Deeds, has been our for about a year now. She hails from the Toronto, Ontario music seen and writes and co-produces all of her stuff with jian ghomeshi of Moxy Fruvous. every track on this cd is worthy. e. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:24:53 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Negrin Subject: MM: Hi My first group Post... There seems to be a lot of controversy about the buying used vs. new CDs. I just had to write to tell you all how amusing I find this. Thats my two cents. - --Chris Oh yeah, if you dont know, Internet radio with a CRAZY number of super specific channels. I wont tell you my favorites, but will say that you cant get enough. www.spinner.com Be my singing lesson Be my song When I tell you I'm falling You tell me I'm strong You say trees have grown tall birds have flown high Higher and higher Goodbye goodbye goodbye - --- Tricia9999@aol.com wrote: > Can I assume that those who don't buy used cds also > refuse to buy used books? > > Tricia Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:57:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bilbo Baggins Subject: [none] Lets stop this already. For those with no minds, here's the deal. When you buy something, it is yours to do what you want with, including selling it. Now back to real issues. Why are none of Evil_Gary's reviews on the new Pattygriffin.net site. Jen? I thought my review of the Landmine free world concert was worthy? I'm hurt. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:56:28 EST From: Kaycee973@aol.com Subject: MM: (no subject) i agree with gary... ..... just puttin my 2cents in. Y Kim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 02:51:15 +0000 From: "Mare :-)" Subject: MM:NPC:John Mayer Hi, I hate to be annoying bringing up old recommendation posts but was there a recommendation for John Mayer? Or does anyone know anything about him? Is he worth a listen? My sister suggested him to me, but my sister also met her lifelong goal of meeting all the Backstreet Boys this summer, not that I do not value her opinion I just want to see what other people with different tasted in music think... Thanks! Mary - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:13:05 -0500 From: Richard Challen Subject: MM: Not That I'm Not Equally Self-Righteous, But... To Ron: Hate to bust your bubble about used CDs, but a few things you should know from someone who's worked music retail for years: 1) Most independent music stores survive solely on their used merchandise. I know ours does. Yes, new CD sales benefit the record company and (occasionally) the artist (more on that later), but your average music store barely breaks even on catalog CDs and LOSES MONEY on new releases. But if we don't advertise "THE NEW KID ROCK ON SALE FOR $12.99" then we don't get traffic into our store. And it's that traffic that buys the used merch, which we make a much better margin on (around 50%, versus 8% for new CDs). Look around and see how many indie stores have gone out of business in the last few years. Heck, even Tower's about to go bankrupt. Eliminate the used CDs, and the few remaining indie stores go under too. And that'll leave Best Buy and Wal-Mart, and do you REALLY think they will be bothered to stock the new releases by Patty Griffin?? (Or Elanor McEvoy or Eliza Carthy...) Bet that'll help those artist sales!! 2) If someone is buying a used promotional CD, this means the record company already gave this CD away for FREE! (probably to a radio person or journalist who didn't know/like the artist, and they sold it right away) And guess who already paid for this CD as part of the "promotional costs" that their label will eventually recoup? That's right, the artist!! At the very least, maybe the artist would like this "promo CD" to wind up in the hands of a potential fan, rather than a wastebasket. (And don't kid yourself, if there are no used CD stores anymore, that's where the bulk of these promo CDs will end up...) 3) If our man on the street hadn't bought that used CD, would the CD have magically turned into a $17.99 new CD that benefits both label and artist? Nope, it would've stayed the same ol' used CD and probably would've been bought by another shopper the next day or week. So it's kind of silly to think that NOT buying a used CD somehow "saves a sale." >You know that when you buy a used CD, not one cent goes into the artist's pocket, yes? 4) You know that, in a typical major-label deal, the artist isn't going to see one cent anyway until total sales cross 500,000, yes? In other words, every used Patty Griffin CD that has ever been sold was just "theoretically" taking money out of her pocket... because, in real life, A&M was taking ALL the royalty money and probably still complaining they had "yet to recoup our costs." If you sneak into Patty's show using a counterfeit ticket, or you steal a T-shirt from her merch stand, then yes, NOW you are taking $ out of her pocket. Buying a used CD, rather than a $17.99 new CD, means about $2 less for Patty once she crosses the mythical 500,000-unit mark. Trust me, all things considered: She would rather have you buy the CD, become a fan, and attend one of her shows so she can finally start making REAL money. > That record store sales help build local radio station buzz, which in turn helps build more record sales, yes? 5) Most radio stations are controlled by a few giant conglomerates: Clear Channel, et al. Record sales at your local used CD store in Podunk, USA make zero difference in what 102X New Rock station in your market decides to play 50 times a week. You really want to see Patty get some major airplay? Get Clive Davis to phone radio stations and talk shows on her behalf, like he did with Alicia Keys, and THEN we'll see some airplay. > Hell, in your second post, did you not even avoid the question regarding where you buy your used CDs because you're afraid that law enforcement agents might get involved and close down your "source?" 6) When Media Play, a nationwide chain, sells used CDs outright in many of their stores, it's not really a criminal offense, is it? We're not talking bootlegged CD-Rs on the street corner or 5,000,000 downloads a week off Napster/Morpheus/KaZaa, are we?? > Honestly . . . how is what you're doing different than just borrowing a CD from a friend and burning a copy for yourself? 7) Because the used CD store makes money, and stays in business, and continues to promote struggling artists. Because only one person can buy that used CD, and then it's gone. Because when a customer can't find a particular title used, they (often) buy the CD new at full retail price. Because the person that originally sold back the used CD will (often) use that money to buy a different NEW CD. By contrast, once you have a burner, you never need to see the inside of a record store again! Bet that helps struggling artists a lot!! > Sorry, but you asked. Sorry, but I answered. - --rICH Listen to Rich: Check out the official website of Backyard Green, featuring tour dates, lyrics, pictures, and sound clips from the new album: http://www.backyardgreen.com And be sure to check out Rich's solo website at: http://listen.to/rich.com http://www.geocities.com/richardchallen ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V6 #36 ********************************