From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V5 #186 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.quackquack.net/pattyg * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V4 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Wednesday, August 1 2001 Volume 05 : Number 186 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MM: Taping ["Darcie Miner" ] Re: MM: Taping [donhenn@msn.com] MM: Re: Taping ["donhenn" ] MM: The Taping Issue Part 25 [Richard Challen ] MM: Cat's Cradle ["donhenn" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:33:01 -0500 From: "Darcie Miner" Subject: Re: MM: Taping Dave said: "So you're saying that anyone who plays a cover song in concert has to ask the copyright holder to perform the song? I've never heard of such a thing! There are thousands upon thousands of cover bands out there who have certainly not asked all those different artists for permission to perform their song(s) live." GOOD LORD NO! otherwise i'd be screwed with all them patty songs i cover... the rule is where ever a cover band plays, it's an ASCAP (where i personally keep my stuff published, it's most safe) SESAC or BMI club. next time you walk into a club that holds cover bands, look at the front door, or a window on the entrance of the club, there should be a sticker- i usually see ASCAP stickers. anyways, the bands NEVER pay or have to ask for permission or whatever, UNLESS they were to RECORD the song on an album. the CLUB pays ASCAP SESAC or BMI for all those cover bands. it's just entertainment; this is why places like ThE wIrE in new cumberland NEVER had cover bands, they didn't pay those associations; which are really an artists best friend, because they take care of their music, also when it's gets radio air play. it's all the same, the artist is going to get a certain percentage for publishing rights and copyrights. i guess when you're playing an outside venue, like an artsfest or something and you're a cover band, they just don't tell anyone... but in reality, that's illegal. all bars that have cover bands, top 40 bands, anyone that covers someone else's shit, that bar must pay those companies for the bands that they hold in their clubs to play other artist's songs. Dave Matthews- TONIGHT- yay, ~darc http://www.darcieminer.com Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 18:58:24 -0400 From: donhenn@msn.com Subject: Re: MM: Taping MMers , Amen to everything Mimi said , especially the posterity line. I'm sure that there is some music that Patty is done with , she's constantly moving forward. When the world finally discovers her , a large part of her body of work , will still be available , thanks to her lawless fans recording & sharing her music on hard media. You sacrifice and pay your fines To the god of single minds Patty Griffin "Song for the Eighties" (AKA "Never Gonna' Be") Don if not just for posterity's sake. Mimi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:05:37 -0400 From: "donhenn" Subject: MM: Re: Taping MMers , Some people certainly have a much greater respect for the law , & rules & regulations than I do.Believe it or not , I rarely come to a complete stop when I approach a stop sign with no other cars around. I think (rightly) , that it's OK to tape a show b/c I'm not making any money on it , as long as it's not costing the artist money (live releases). Most of Patty's fans would be delighted if they could buy her live shows , professionally recorded. Absent the release of live recordings , in the long run these boots mean MORE revenue for the label , & the artist , in increased sales for the CDs & shows. For artists who have little national recognition , there's nothing that grows their audience like the dedicated fans who circulate their music , & tell anyone who will listen how great their music is. If I had nothing but LWG & Flaming Red , I would be very frustrated at hearing all this other great music that I couldn't get a copy of. Also , I would never have heard "Off You Go" , "Long Ride Home" , "Boxes" , "Illusions" , "Falling Down" , "Calling Me Home" , "The Longer You Wait" (The Gate) , "You Don't Have Me"( You Decided ), "Under These Clouds" , & many others. Under those conditions , I don't know where my enthusiasm for Patty's music would be right now. It certainly wouldn't be in that obsessive state that it was in when I first got the Rarities songs the same week as the Fez shows , & probably not in near-obsessive state it's in now after seeing her 5 times in a week. It wouldn't be so easy to opine that she is easily the singer/songwriter of the '90's , or the reigning "Queen of Soul" , or that she is currently creating & performing the best music on the planet , which I also did a year and a half ago at the Fez. When you talk about the "right" to do something , don't confuse it with abiding by every rule & regulation that comes down the pike. Somebody , somewhere , talked about inalienable rights that are not granted by man. It may seem silly to mention that in a context that could be perceived as trifling , but I live by it. I guess you stand with Warner Brothers suing lyrics sites to cease & desist , too. I would really like to know the reasoning behind that. Their name is in my mind as someone to avoid giving my business to if I have an option. I'm sure they're not worried though , b/c they're going to rake in millions selling lyrics(LOL). I hope you don't mistake my strident tone for personal anger at you. It's more towards those who go to ridiculous lengths to make a dollar or two , often costing themselves money in the long run. Well , back to reviews. Hope y'all don't get too tired of me. Peace & music , & Patty Griffin. So do your dance on my head Heavy steps of the dead Patty Griffin "Falling Down" Don > No mattter the intent behind taping a show or what you plan to do with it > (personal use), it does not matter that you don't plan to make a profit. > A > musical performance is just as much a copyrighted event as writing a song > or > recording one to a CD. There are about 7 categories of copyrighted events. > Most of these an artist can license or sell to someone else for money. One > of the them is the right to perform a song. > > > You as a member of the audience do not have a right to tape a performance > without a) permission of the copyright holder (not necessarily the artist) > or b) paying a royalty to the copyright holder. Most people think > (wrongly) > that just because they don't intend to sell or make a profit, that makes > it > ok to record an artist's show. > > > When VCR's first came out, the act of taping a show off of the tv was > considered a copyright infringment. And it truthfully was. It wasn't > until > after a Supreme Court decision allowing private owners to tape shows that > we > could do so without violating copyrights. Your purchase of a CD allows you > the right to make as many copies as you want for your own personal use. > However, it doesn't allow you to make copies of that copy or literally, to > give that copy away to a friend. The act of handing a copied CD to a > friend > is literally a copright violation. > > > I just wanted to clear the facts. Many people have a misconception about > whether or not a copyright violation ocurrs. A lot of people think that > it > is only a violation if they intend to sell or distribute it make money > from > it. But it isn't what you intend to do with the recording that determines > if > it's a violation or not, it is literally the pure act of making that > recording that violates copyright. > > > Eric Southward > Indianapolis, IN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 20:33:16 -0400 From: Richard Challen Subject: MM: The Taping Issue Part 25 Just to clarify... > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:32:49 EDT > From: FlamingRed74@cs.com > Subject: Re: MM: Taping > So you're saying that anyone who plays a cover song in concert has to ask the copyright holder to perform the song? I've never heard of such a thing! There are thousands upon thousands of cover bands out there who have certainly not asked all those different artists for permission to perform their song(s) live. The reason you don't have to ask the copyright holder of every cover song you perform is because 99.9% of all major artists belong to ASCAP or BMI, non-profit organizations that handle residuals for their members (AKA songwriters). A cover band can perform an entire set of "top 40" or "new rock hits" because the venue plays an annual fee to either ASCAP, or BMI, or both... and this fee will be combined with thousands of other similar fees from radio stations, television stations, ballparks, hockey arenas, etc. Then the songwriter gets residuals out of this big "pot" of money, based on how often his/her song was played/performed over a certain quarterly period. If you go see a cover band in a bar that doesn't pay a fee to ASCAP or BMI, then technically, that bar (and even the band) is violating artists' copyrights. Most bars (and cover bands) are too tiny for a large organization to make a fuss, but ASCAP *did* target the Girl Scouts not so many years ago. Seems they weren't paying fees on their campfire songs. A public relations disaster, sure, but there you go. One more tidbit: I had a friend of mine play the Mountain Stage radio program, and the producers told the band not to perform one of their big crowd pleasers--an Allison Krauss cover--because the program didn't want to pay the licensing fees! > I've never heard of a concert being "copyrighted material" either. Wouldn't you have to submit a recording of each and every concert and pay for it to be copyrighted? If the artist has already registered the copyrights with each song at the U.S. Copyright Office, then every song is already copyrighted. You're thinking of a phonographic copyright... like if Patty decides to release a live album, she then copyrights the actual recording itself... but the songs themselves have already been copyrighted over the last 5 years. Basically, recording an artist's show violates his/her copyrights, just like taping a song off the radio, or downloading a song off Napster, or burning your roommate's CD. I know that the rise of the Internet has basically meant the trampling of artists' rights because "music should be free" (a phrase often uttered by those who DON'T make music of their own), but it's worth remembering that it's still theft in the technical sense of the word. > Otherwise, if an artist is indifferent to it I can't see how you are infringing on any "copyright" rules. If your friend GIVES you a CD out of their collection (saying "I want you to have this") then you haven't stolen from your friend. If Patty says, "Go ahead and tape my show," then she's letting your 'copyright violation' slide. But if you take a CD out of your friend's collection when they're not looking, figuring "they won't mind," you're still stealing from your friend no matter how you cut it... and unless you spoke to Patty personally before the show (or read a message from her on her website saying she's cool with taping), you're doing the exact same thing. Whew! I don't know if this debate is done yet, but I am... see ya, rICH Listen to Rich: Check out the official website of Backyard Green, featuring tour dates, lyrics, pictures, and updates on the soon-to-be-released new album: http://www.backyardgreen.com And be sure to check out Rich's solo website at: http://listen.to/rich.com http://www.geocities.com/richardchallen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:28:30 -0400 From: "donhenn" Subject: MM: Cat's Cradle MMers , Thanks to rICH for the setlist , which is exactly the same as Birchmere , & almost the same as the other two. Starr Hill had "Tony" in place of "Be Careful" , but only b/c she broke a string. "Nobody's Crying" showed up at Rams Head , but "Tomorrow Night" was dropped from the encore. I guess she was keeping things as simple as possible since she had to prepare for 4 shows in as many days , & hadn't been playing for awhile. No complaints here though. When she's that good , song choice is a minor point. Patty & Doug had much better chemistry than Atlanta. Doug had a number of guitars , pedals & attachments , with which he made a number of non-guitar-like sounds , & he seemed to be experimenting. Most of it sounded good , & I was slightly disappointed when he leaned more traditional for later shows. A few times , he had a mandolin/almost ukulele/ sound. Most notably , when he & Patty were playing together between vocals. They had great chemistry doing that , especially at the first two shows. "Carry Me" still had too much volume on the guitar , but "Truth # 2" was the first time I noticed the mandolin sound , & both played very well on it. "Poor Man's House" struck me when she started slowing down & singing more quietly as though she was ending , then came back with a strength that surprised even me. "Mad Mission" got a big response as soon as it was recognized , then another as she finished the lines ; "I got the ambition , mad mad mission , sign me up" Many of you must have been there. I think that she got more spontaneous responses while she was singing there , than the other shows. Don't know if that was good or bad , check with the purists who know all the rules of proper etiquette. They remind me of the guy who sat next to me at Starr Hill. When he liked something , he would applaud ever so gently , & say "very nice". After one of the songs , he said it twice ! "Florida" is a new song, she said she wrote it a couple of weeks ago. I got a lot of info on it from Patty , & other attendees who caught things that I didn't make notes on , & might not have remembered if they hadn't jogged my memory. A lot of sensory overload seeing 5 shows in 6 days. I think the overload is accelerating my normal age-related deterioration of the brain. : ) She said that she & a girlfriend went to Florida to work for the season at the Holiday Inn , liked it there , & stayed two years. Part of the lyrics seem to imply a good relationship gone sour. She said that she was finally fired for insubordination , & seemed delighted with the memory , & reminded me of the line from "Under These Clouds" ; "She tells her boss , "here's my butt , why don't you give it a kiss , you got all you're going to get out of me" ".She also said that she was in a cover band at the time she left for Florida , & that she wrote it when she was thinking about that period of her life. "Be Careful" is a song that she introduced at 6 Degrees , & I think she said it was inspired by Marilyn Monroe's high-profile vulnerability. It seems to me that "Christina" was also inspired by HER high-profile vulnerability. Maybe that's on Patty's mind as she contemplates stardom. I would guess that Patty has that in common with them. The off-stage shyness would indicate vulnerability. It's one of the songs where Doug's quiet , soulful , playing really adds to the mood that Patty's singing creates.Others are "Rain" , "Stolen Car" , "Mary" , & the bluesy opening to "Flaming Red". His more up-tempo playing sounds best on "Chief" , "Truth # 2" , & the rocking part of "Flaming Red" "Rain" is another song introduced at 6 Degrees. She said it was inspired by one of the heavy rains they get in Austin. There's a line in there that revisits "Under These Clouds" ; "holding on underneath this shroud". The UTC line is ; "someone's still alive under this shroud" Dark & tragic for sure. : ) I think that Patty is happy to be performing again. She chatted awhile before the encore , & said "this just beats the hell out of sitting at home & watching movies or something" . Doug did some excellent guitar during "Tomorrow Night" , & got his only direct crowd response while I was writing a note about it. Patty said that she wrote "Ten Million Miles" just a few days before the shows. Still moving forward. During one of her chats , she started waving her hands like she was nervous that something bad was going to happen. I think that she was afraid to mention the wrong city. She did it as she was saying she was walking around Carrboro/ Chapel Hill that day.Carrboro is a very small town , Chapel Hill is a bit larger , Durham is bigger yet , & just a bit farther away , the much bigger Raleigh is also close. When I was at the Ark she mentioned Detroit first , & had to quickly change to Ann Arbor when she got a negative reaction. After the show , I was standing there when someone nabbed her lyrics for "Ten Million Miles". (It wasn't me Patty !! ) I didn't know what it was at the time. Then I was standing there looking at the setlist , wanting to take it , so that I could see the name of the new song. But they hadn't taken up the lights or started any music , so I was hoping for another encore song or two. Someone else got it , & I asked them if I could look at it , & got the name. I have a note that follows her saying she wrote "Ten Million Miles" a few days ago. It says "this one's for you" , & I have no clue what it relates to. From the lyrics I remember , it could be a song just dedicated to her fans. Which , of course , would include me. YAY ! I know this is too long already , but I hate to ignore an excellent opening act. Caitlain Cory & Thad Cockerell , a country & western duo with a little bit of nice blues thrown in. They don't always play together , she has her own CD coming out. She plays the violin & sings , & he plays guitar & harmonica & sings. There was also a bass player who didn't get any billing. She was excellent on the violin but didn't play while she was singing, I guess that would be difficult.They had a couple of very good original compositions , & did a great job on "Together Again". Don't know who did the original , but someone guessed George Jones & Tammy Wynette. They also did a song that Caitlain composed , I think it was called "Please Break My Heart" a tongue-in-cheek song asking for a heartbreak to act as a catalyst for her creative muse. Now , where are my notes for Starr Hill ? We had the real thing Up there in the moonlight Didn't cost nothing But each of our hearts Patty Griffin "You Don't Have Me" (AKA "You Decided" ) Don ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V5 #186 *********************************