From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V3 #72 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttyg.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Friday, March 19 1999 Volume 03 : Number 072 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: Patty on Austin radio at 5pm on the 19th [Beverly Luna ] MM: RE: RE: Awards shows and the biz.of sellin' out [Joe Sullivan ] MM: Tab Page ["Paquin, John" ] Re: MM: Art of Sellin' Out? [rblack1@io.com (Ronda Blacksher)] MM: RE: Art of Sellin' Out? [Mark Cicero ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:28:46 -0600 From: Beverly Luna Subject: MM: Patty on Austin radio at 5pm on the 19th I read in the Austin Chronicle that Patty will be on KGSR (107.1, I believe) here in Austin at 5pm today. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:54:13 -0600 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: RE: Awards shows and the biz.of sellin' out Keep the faith all you want but (unfortunately)that's how it is (or at least, I see it very differently that you). Sorry, I don't mean to rain on your parade. That's just my opinion and apparently you disagree. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. Regards, Mark Cicero, Nashville,TN - -----Original Message----- From: Joe Sullivan [mailto:joe@techresource.org] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 10:06 PM To: 'Mark Cicero' Subject: Awards shows and the biz.of sellin' out Hello Mark, Comparing an awards,PR shmooze-fest orchestrated by labels with the blood and sweat of performers trading their skills for a living is ludicrous. Yes, they're both business but they are at opposite ends of the biz hierarchy. It's like saying profiting from the stock market on the backs of others is the same as digging the ditch. There has to be a vision of the economy that is transformative--which allows people to perform honest work without simultaneously legitimizing outta-control capitalism. "The minute..." reasoning you describe crushes that vision. Keepin the faith, Joe Seattle Not even the same ballpark. - -----Original Message----- From: Mark Cicero [mailto:MC1@wallerlaw.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 7:39 AM To: 'Pattylist' Subject: RE: MM: Desperate Donn, Are you implying that the awards shows reflect the "business" side of music more than the talent side? Well, who are we kidding? The minute an artists plays a gig and gets paid for it, or the minute an artist makes a CD and sells one copy they have bought into the business end of it. It's a fact of life. There is a lot of talent out there, what makes the difference in who gets heard or recognized is how talented they are in dealing with the business end as well. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN - -----Original Message----- From: COOLTUNES5@aol.com [mailto:COOLTUNES5@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 6:07 PM To: PerlmanJ@ujafedny.org; mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: Re: MM: Desperate always make me wonder who those awards shows really are benefitting. It all seems to be about money. My god the amount of terrific music released last year was staggering, and mention of all most none of it on those rediculous awards shows!!!! BTW check out Neil Finn's cd, pretty amazing music, and again was it even mentioned anywhere??????? Donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:33:05 -0800 From: Joe Sullivan Subject: MM: Sellin' out in the music biz Hello Mark, Comparing an awards,PR shmooze-fest orchestrated by labels with the blood and sweat of performers trading their skills for a living is ludicrous. Yes, they're both business but they are at opposite ends of the biz hierarchy. It's like saying profiting from the stock market on the backs of others is the *same* as digging the ditch. Perhaps the ma and pa store that lays off their one employee to stay "in business" is the same as the CEO who lays off 20,000 and receives millions in bonuses, "just business." Maybe they're both business, but one is a living and the other is gluttony. There has to be a vision of the economy that is transformative--which allows people to perform honest work without simultaneously legitimizing outta-control capitalism. "The minute..." reasoning you describe crushes that vision. Keep the faith, Joe Seattle (I responded personally to Mark earlier. Sorry about that. It's not personal--I'd rather discuss this a little on the list.) - -----Original Message----- From: Mark Cicero [mailto:MC1@wallerlaw.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 7:39 AM To: 'Pattylist' Subject: RE: MM: Desperate Donn, Are you implying that the awards shows reflect the "business" side of music more than the talent side? Well, who are we kidding? The minute an artists plays a gig and gets paid for it, or the minute an artist makes a CD and sells one copy they have bought into the business end of it. It's a fact of life. There is a lot of talent out there, what makes the difference in who gets heard or recognized is how talented they are in dealing with the business end as well. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN - -----Original Message----- From: COOLTUNES5@aol.com [mailto:COOLTUNES5@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 6:07 PM To: PerlmanJ@ujafedny.org; mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: Re: MM: Desperate always make me wonder who those awards shows really are benefitting. It all seems to be about money. My god the amount of terrific music released last year was staggering, and mention of all most none of it on those rediculous awards shows!!!! BTW check out Neil Finn's cd, pretty amazing music, and again was it even mentioned anywhere??????? Donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:56:26 -0800 From: Joe Sullivan Subject: MM: RE: RE: Awards shows and the biz.of sellin' out Mark (and any other commie sympathizers who may be listening:) Why are so many people so eager to equate work which earns $ with work which earns $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$? It is not inevitable that we worship at the altar of mega-corporations. It's tragic that the Clintonians have left the Democrats without any criticism of this world view. Perhaps it is because money makes the world go round? Yes. Can it change? Yes. Do we like it the way it is? No. Unless you are in the top 10% of the economic bracket which has earned 85% of Stock Market profits in the '90's (according to Robert Reiche (sp?) former secretary of labor). Where does the change begin? If not with artists then we're in deep shit. Mark writes: Keep the faith all you want but (unfortunately)that's how it is (or at least, I see it very differently that you). Sorry, I don't mean to rain on your parade. I live in Seattle friend--recently finished 93 consecutive days of rain:) Why do you say this? Why do you see it this way? Do you like it this way? Mark, are you a Nashville music attorney who profits directly from this?:) I don't necessarily have a problem with music attorneys: they fulfill necessary roles and putting in the effort of learning the laws and practicing them certainly deserves compensation. The question is what a "just" economy might look like. Mark concludes: That's just my opinion and apparently you disagree. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. I would prefer to agree. Help convince me. Sincerely, Woody Guthrie Seattle, WA - -----Original Message----- From: Joe Sullivan [mailto:joe@techresource.org] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 10:06 PM To: 'Mark Cicero' Subject: Awards shows and the biz.of sellin' out Hello Mark, Comparing an awards,PR shmooze-fest orchestrated by labels with the blood and sweat of performers trading their skills for a living is ludicrous. Yes, they're both business but they are at opposite ends of the biz hierarchy. It's like saying profiting from the stock market on the backs of others is the same as digging the ditch. There has to be a vision of the economy that is transformative--which allows people to perform honest work without simultaneously legitimizing outta-control capitalism. "The minute..." reasoning you describe crushes that vision. Keepin the faith, Joe Seattle Not even the same ballpark. - -----Original Message----- From: Mark Cicero [mailto:MC1@wallerlaw.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 7:39 AM To: 'Pattylist' Subject: RE: MM: Desperate Donn, Are you implying that the awards shows reflect the "business" side of music more than the talent side? Well, who are we kidding? The minute an artists plays a gig and gets paid for it, or the minute an artist makes a CD and sells one copy they have bought into the business end of it. It's a fact of life. There is a lot of talent out there, what makes the difference in who gets heard or recognized is how talented they are in dealing with the business end as well. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN - -----Original Message----- From: COOLTUNES5@aol.com [mailto:COOLTUNES5@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 6:07 PM To: PerlmanJ@ujafedny.org; mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: Re: MM: Desperate always make me wonder who those awards shows really are benefitting. It all seems to be about money. My god the amount of terrific music released last year was staggering, and mention of all most none of it on those rediculous awards shows!!!! BTW check out Neil Finn's cd, pretty amazing music, and again was it even mentioned anywhere??????? Donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:38 -0600 From: "James P" Subject: MM: Art of Sellin' Out? I agree with Joe. I tend to be an optimist when it comes to global change and how it can manifest itself. But not all artists are as business savvy as Ani DiFranco. What she did and what she's doing is brilliant and I hope that it has inspired other artists to go on that same path by subverting the music mega-corporations and their looks-based industry. She needs to write a book on how she did it. I'm sorry Mark, I don't mean to rain on YOUR parade, but when you look at who is getting exposure these days (i.e. the "Divas," and the teenage "sensations") it has nothing to do with how talented they are at the business side of music. Chances are they have no clue how it works. They look pretty and sing uncomplicated, unchallenging songs and that is why they have record deals. It has nothing to do with talent in either regard. I think that Milli Vanilli and C&C Music Factory proved that to us. What insults me the most is that music companies have some little outdated demographic that tells them I want this kind of music shoved down my throat. The true artists/musicians that do "fall through the cracks" and get exposure in the mainstream (i.e. Sheryl Crow, Tori Amos, Shawn Colvin, Dave Matthews,etc.) and even the occasional Grammy, have worked their asses off for YEARS to get where they are. And I'd bet quite a bit of money (if I had it) that every one of them had to go through some kind of "image makeover" before they were allowed to make their first video. Where does this leave Patty? I know that among musicians her work is respected and admired. Yet, at a concert here in Nashville, a guy sitting next to me said, "I hope it's not Patty's looks that are keeping her from the exposure she deserves." Does his comment reflect the (let's face it) male-dominated music industry? I and many others think that Patty is not only incredibly talented, but incredibly beautiful, too. But is she not going to get more exposure and respect because she doesn't look like Mariah Carey? The priorities of this mutated form of capitalism are very disturbing, indeed. Yet, we (I mean this collectively/societal, not we on this list) demonstrate our support by purchasing records by the Untalented, by purchasing our goods at places like Wal-Mart and any big-chain/mega-store. Many of us work for these places, but know that if we went to work for an individually owned place, we'd get paid less because they, too, are trying to compete. Where does that leave us? How does one get the word out? How does one get people to realize that their choices and money are influenced by corporations? More importantly, how does one get people to CARE that corporations rule the world? If any of you on this list want more info on how corporations rule our lives, there is a wonderful website that you can go to for more informative arguments on the salvation of our culture: www.adbusters.org I hope I haven't rambled too long. I have much more that I could say about all this but I'll let someone else have the cyber-floor now. -Cristina "As long as this women-in-rock movement is treated as a novelty, we're still looking at it as something that's not here to stay." -Sheryl Crow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:48:36 -0600 From: "Paquin, John" Subject: MM: Tab Page Can someone give me the URL of the page that has Patty guitar Tab on it? I remember someone collecting them, but I seem to have misplaced the address. Thanks! - -john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:02:16 -0600 (CST) From: rblack1@io.com (Ronda Blacksher) Subject: Re: MM: Art of Sellin' Out? At the risk of turning into a cheerleader, I thought this one of the more thoughtful and clear messages seen on this list. Go Cristina! Ronda Austin At 11:43 AM 3/19/99 -0600, James P wrote: >I agree with Joe. I tend to be an optimist when it comes to global change >and how it can manifest itself. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:13:01 -0600 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: RE: Art of Sellin' Out? Cristina writes: "I'm sorry Mark, I don't mean to rain on YOUR parade, but when you look at who is getting exposure these days (i.e. the "Divas," and the teenage "sensations") it has nothing to do with how talented they are at the business side of music." Mark replies: Cristina, no apologies are necessary, when it comes to raining on my parade. My ego always carries an umbrella ;-). I find it difficult to debate any issue when the issue itself is so subjective. Words like "talented", "true artists/musicians", defy any meaningful definition.....so any meaningfull debate is really impossible. Those of us that are passionate about music are already doing all we can. We do our part to affect change buy supporting those artists that we think are talented,by buying their music, supporting radio stations that play their music and by spreading the word utilizing whatever technology is at our disposal. I love Ani Defranco and what she's done and I've bought all of stuff just to express my support (because really not all of it is good, in my opinion). But I also like Celine Dion (one of the Diva's) and I have all here CD's including those in French. Oh, just for the record (no pun intended)I am not an attorney. I work for the largest law firm in Nashville and many of our clients are in the music industry, but NO, I do not directly profit from the "Music Biz". I'm just a guy in his mid forties, who is, has always been and forever will be in love with the female voice. I don't know what "true talent" is, I only know what stirs my heart. Have a good weekend, everybody. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN - -----Original Message----- From: James P [mailto:jasepru@home.com] Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:44 AM To: Mad-mission@smoe. org Subject: MM: Art of Sellin' Out? I agree with Joe. I tend to be an optimist when it comes to global change and how it can manifest itself. But not all artists are as business savvy as Ani DiFranco. What she did and what she's doing is brilliant and I hope that it has inspired other artists to go on that same path by subverting the music mega-corporations and their looks-based industry. She needs to write a book on how she did it. I'm sorry Mark, I don't mean to rain on YOUR parade, but when you look at who is getting exposure these days (i.e. the "Divas," and the teenage "sensations") it has nothing to do with how talented they are at the business side of music. Chances are they have no clue how it works. They look pretty and sing uncomplicated, unchallenging songs and that is why they have record deals. It has nothing to do with talent in either regard. I think that Milli Vanilli and C&C Music Factory proved that to us. What insults me the most is that music companies have some little outdated demographic that tells them I want this kind of music shoved down my throat. The true artists/musicians that do "fall through the cracks" and get exposure in the mainstream (i.e. Sheryl Crow, Tori Amos, Shawn Colvin, Dave Matthews,etc.) and even the occasional Grammy, have worked their asses off for YEARS to get where they are. And I'd bet quite a bit of money (if I had it) that every one of them had to go through some kind of "image makeover" before they were allowed to make their first video. Where does this leave Patty? I know that among musicians her work is respected and admired. Yet, at a concert here in Nashville, a guy sitting next to me said, "I hope it's not Patty's looks that are keeping her from the exposure she deserves." Does his comment reflect the (let's face it) male-dominated music industry? I and many others think that Patty is not only incredibly talented, but incredibly beautiful, too. But is she not going to get more exposure and respect because she doesn't look like Mariah Carey? The priorities of this mutated form of capitalism are very disturbing, indeed. Yet, we (I mean this collectively/societal, not we on this list) demonstrate our support by purchasing records by the Untalented, by purchasing our goods at places like Wal-Mart and any big-chain/mega-store. Many of us work for these places, but know that if we went to work for an individually owned place, we'd get paid less because they, too, are trying to compete. Where does that leave us? How does one get the word out? How does one get people to realize that their choices and money are influenced by corporations? More importantly, how does one get people to CARE that corporations rule the world? If any of you on this list want more info on how corporations rule our lives, there is a wonderful website that you can go to for more informative arguments on the salvation of our culture: www.adbusters.org I hope I haven't rambled too long. I have much more that I could say about all this but I'll let someone else have the cyber-floor now. -Cristina "As long as this women-in-rock movement is treated as a novelty, we're still looking at it as something that's not here to stay." -Sheryl Crow ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V3 #72 ********************************