From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #164 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttour.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com/road/index.html * and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Wednesday, June 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 164 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: Artistic Sellout?? [Mark Cicero ] MM: flaming red lyric [Elaine Bean ] [none] [mgillis@meditech.com] MM: flaming red lyric -Reply [Mark Cicero ] [none] [Mark Cicero ] MM: Re: [EMSTER68@aol.com] MM: RE: Sellout ["Paquin, John" ] [none] [mgillis@meditech.com] MM: Commercials, etc. ["muzikman (a.k.a. Michael Bauer)" ] MM: advanced copies ["Terry Miller" ] MM: Paula Cole - an opportunist [Amy_Emerman@time-inc.com] MM: Paula Cole - an opportunist AKA "The Bandwagon" [Mark Cicero ] Re: MM: flaming red lyric -Reply [Adangerz@aol.com] MM: They're palying it! [lgrady@lnmta.bentley.edu] MM: RE: They're playing it! [Erin Scrafford ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:56:36 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: Artistic Sellout?? Judith, 1. The talent of an artists should be judged on their recorded output and live shows. 2. You have no idea if Paula's or any artists contract with their record lablel requires them to allow their songs to be used for commercial projects. 3. Commercial success does not necessarily equal artistic sell out. The only time I might care what an artist's music is supporting is if it supports say, a commercial for the KKK. Then I would think that it would reflect on the artist if they allowed that association to be made. Have you answered you own question, "How would you feel if you heard that Patty was going to replace Vonda Shepard's spont on "Ally McBeal"? Regards, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:31:44 -0700 From: Elaine Bean Subject: MM: flaming red lyric Hi, I don't want to start a big argument with anyone about this, but I would love to hear other's reactions to the lyrics of Flaming Red - particularly (I'm doing this from memory, and I may have some words wrong) those that read "Stupid girl, she was dressed like she deserved everything that she got". At first, I was so taken aback, then came to realize (This is my take) that she is singing sarcastically - she is making a statement about the narrow attitudes of those people who, even today, still believe that a woman "asks for it" because of dress, attitude, etc. Now, it's one of my favorites. I think FR is absolutely wonderful. I love this song and the music, both when she performs with a band and when she performs it acoustically. Was this ever discussed? I don't ever remember it - apologies if it has. Any other observations? I'm curious. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:59:27 -0500 From: mgillis@meditech.com Subject: [none] Judith wrote: I like Paula Cole, and liked her very much before she got famous. However, when I see her songs used as commercials, I have to say that I'm disappointed. It doesn't seem to jibe with the image of the independent, non-conventional, free-expression artist she's trying to put across. It got me wondering if I would feel the same way about Patty. I find this to be an extremely dangerous trend, and if anuthing spells the death of rock and rock and roll, this is it. I know that for me, image is quite important when sizing up an artist, and image has always been an integral part of the appeal of rock and roll. If it gets to the point where we can't tell whether a musician is making an artistic statement or trying to sell product (or taking the company line), its over! - -Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:02:53 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: flaming red lyric -Reply Elaine, One of the problems at the moment is that not all of us on the list have access to a copy of the new CD. Yes, we can read the lyrics on the archive page but it's not the same. I'll reserve my observaitons till I've had a chance to digest the new CD. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN >>> Elaine Bean 06/17/98 11:31am >>> Hi, I don't want to start a big argument with anyone about this, but I would love to hear other's reactions to the lyrics of Flaming Red - particularly (I'm doing this from memory, and I may have some words wrong) those that read "Stupid girl, she was dressed like she deserved everything that she got". At first, I was so taken aback, then came to realize (This is my take) that she is singing sarcastically - she is making a statement about the narrow attitudes of those people who, even today, still believe that a woman "asks for it" because of dress, attitude, etc. Now, it's one of my favorites. I think FR is absolutely wonderful. I love this song and the music, both when she performs with a band and when she performs it acoustically. Was this ever discussed? I don't ever remember it - apologies if it has. Any other observations? I'm curious. Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:08:11 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: [none] Matt, Unfortunately your point about "image" being a big part of the appeal in Rock and Roll is true because most of the music (90%) is so shallow. Therefore some artists need more than their music when the talent is lacking. However if the talent is there, as I feel it is with Patty, then image is secondary. Regards, Mark Nashville, TN >>> 06/17/98 09:59am >>> Judith wrote: I like Paula Cole, and liked her very much before she got famous. However, when I see her songs used as commercials, I have to say that I'm disappointed. It doesn't seem to jibe with the image of the independent, non-conventional, free-expression artist she's trying to put across. It got me wondering if I would feel the same way about Patty. I find this to be an extremely dangerous trend, and if anuthing spells the death of rock and rock and roll, this is it. I know that for me, image is quite important when sizing up an artist, and image has always been an integral part of the appeal of rock and roll. If it gets to the point where we can't tell whether a musician is making an artistic statement or trying to sell product (or taking the company line), its over! - -Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:12:36 EDT From: EMSTER68@aol.com Subject: MM: Re: Why shouldn't artists allow their songs used in commercials? Do you have any idea how much money they make from it? They are not all millionaires. The songs used are already usually well known and by having them on television only puts it in the heads of millions of people watching. If the right money was offered to me ....there would be no question about it. Wouldn't you find it hard to turn that down? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:21:45 -0500 From: "Paquin, John" Subject: MM: RE: Sellout Jonatha Brooke doing Goodyear commercials is one of the most depressing things I've heard in a long time. Does it mean I'm going to stop buying her albums? No. Any resentment or dissapointment we may feel is our own. We don't have the right to look beyond the music and judge the artist making it. We don't know why these decisions are made, or who they are made by. Does Paula Cole actually have any say in who can purchase the right to play her music? I seriously doubt it. Does Jonatha Brooke's Goodyear commercial enable her to record another album? Possibly. Take the artist's work and hold it close, plumb it's depths for answers to the questions you don't know how to ask. Then let the artist go. The music you hear is the fruit of the choices they've made. - -john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:30:52 -0500 From: mgillis@meditech.com Subject: [none] Matt writes: (sigh) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:11:32 -0700 From: "muzikman (a.k.a. Michael Bauer)" Subject: MM: Commercials, etc. Hi All~ Out of lurk mode for a moment to put in my .02 on commercials using artists' work. I'd have to agree with those that basically say "hey...they gotta eat, too." It used to really irritate me when I'd hear a song used or re recorded for use in a commercial. But, like some of you have mentioned, many of these artist don't have a lot of control over it - it's the record companies. If I *have* to listen to a Goodyear commercial, I'd rather it be someone like Jonnatha Brooke singing it; If I *have* to watch a Pepsi ad on TV, I'd rather see John Lee Hooker sitting there playin' away. I don't think either of these people sold out. I don't know how popular the Stones are to folks on the list but they've managed to balance business decisions with still being the "real deal" as far as songwriting goes - but I suppose that's a different discussion altogether (or flame bait, I suppose :-) ) If you really pay attention, I'd bet that 50-75% of the ads you see/hear today are using songs and or/clips from a popular/semi-popular artist. And, a lot of ads are actually *written* by people you'd never guess (ok, you would guess Barry Manilow wrote "I'm stuck on Band-Aids because Band-Aids' stuck on me). Or the music is composed by popular artists standing in as session players. Anyways..JMHO ~m ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:19:27 -0400 From: Amy_Emerman@time-inc.com Subject: MM: Re: - --------------- cc:Mail Forwarded --------------- From: EMSTER68@aol.com AT TIME_INC Date: 06/17/98 10:12 AM To: mgillis@meditech.com AT TIME_INCmad-mission@smoe.org AT TIME_INC Cc: Subject: MM: Re: Why turn it down if it will bring your music to the attention of more people? Like in the case of Paula Cole, she really lucked out because Alanis Morissette wouldn't let Dawson's Creek use "Hand in my Pocket" as their theme song. And lord knows, she didn't need the exposure. Paula just happened to be in the right place at the right time. I'm sure we won't be hearing Ani DiFranco's voice on a commercial any time soon, that's for sure! :-) ______________________________ Forward Header _____________________________ _____ Subject: MM: Re: Author: EMSTER68@aol.com at TIME_INC Date: 6/17/98 10:12 AM Why shouldn't artists allow their songs used in commercials? Do you have any idea how much money they make from it? They are not all millionaires. The songs used are already usually well known and by having them on television only puts it in the heads of millions of people watching. If the right money was offered to me ....there would be no question about it. Wouldn't you find it hard to turn that down? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:25:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen V. Gilmore" Subject: MM: Re: your mail yes I would be! Then she'd be in the "mutilated music hall of shame".. However, she'd be in some select company, that would include Enya ("Orinoco Flow" may be more well known to some as a commercial for Crystal Light than as a musical masterpiece), Clannad (must run in the family-Enya's brothers and sisters comprise the band), whose "Harry's Game" is even noted on their CD as being "the Volkswagen song", and Tchaikowsky, with the opining notes of the fourth movement of his Fourth Symphony used in a GE diswasher commercial. - SVG On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Perlman, Judith wrote: > Last night I was watching TV and a commercial came on showing men built > like Calvin Klein models in sensual poses with women out of Baywatch. > The music playing was "Feelin' Love" by Paula Cole. This is the 3rd > song of hers I've seen used to promote a TV show - "Where Have all the > Cowboys Gone" for some Western on CBS, and "I Don't Want to Wait" for > Dawson's Creek. > > I like Paula Cole, and liked her very much before she got famous. > However, when I see her songs used as commercials, I have to say that > I'm disappointed. It doesn't seem to jibe with the image of the > independent, non-conventional, free-expression artist she's trying to > put across. It got me wondering if I would feel the same way about > Patty. > > I know all the arguments - that artists struggle for years, and that > their success may be short-lived, so they deserve to take whatever they > get; that there's nothing unethical about their songs being associated > with another creative endeavor; that they might just be helping friends > involved with a project; and/or that it helps them reach a wider > audience (and sell more records). I also know that fans have no right > to dictate to an artist what's right or wrong. > > But still...I do feel let down. Would you be disappointed if Patty's > music showed up in commercials? I'd be interested in hearing what other > people think. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:28:48 -0500 From: "Terry Miller" Subject: MM: advanced copies So, those of you who have advanced copies of "Flaming Red'--I guess you got them at one of Patty's concerts? She was in the Dallas area a few weeks ago and I was all set to see her when a family emergency came up. It killed me to miss the concert because I suspect it might've been the last time I could see her at a small venue. Plus, I probably could've already had the new album! Were there cool concert t-shirts too? I first saw Patty open for Shawn Colvin about a year ago and thought she pretty much blew Shawn away. I'd never heard of Patty Griffin before, but I HAD to run out and get the album. (They sold out at the concert!) Anyway, would be interested in hearing how other people first discovered Patty.... Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:46:30 -0400 From: Amy_Emerman@time-inc.com Subject: MM: Paula Cole - an opportunist I don't think she's that great...I just think she jumped on the bandwagon at a GREAT time for women in music...even just a few years ago she would have (and did) go on virtually unnoticed. Thanks to people like Sarah McLachlan who are really using their energies and talents to bring women back into focus! Sarah is so cool :-) Did I have a point? Don't remember what it was. Sorry... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:03:51 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: Paula Cole - an opportunist AKA "The Bandwagon" To each his/her own. I happen to think that Paula Cole, like Patty Griffen is a pioneer. Both women are tremdousely talented writers (unlike my self who can't even spell) not to mention gifted vocalists. If there is a band wagon please describe it for me. I am always curious who gets to ride and who doesn't. This is not a flame, just another point of view [ I assume I'm allowed to have one, even though I'm male ;-) ] Regards, Mark Nashville, TN >>> 06/17/98 11:46am >>> I don't think she's that great...I just think she jumped on the bandwagon at a GREAT time for women in music...even just a few years ago she would have (and did) go on virtually unnoticed. Thanks to people like Sarah McLachlan who are really using their energies and talents to bring women back into focus! Sarah is so cool :-) Did I have a point? Don't remember what it was. Sorry... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:07:30 -0500 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: Re: -Reply Amy wrote: "I'm sure we won't be hearing Ani DiFranco's voice on a commercial any time soon, that's for sure! " Mark replies: If anyone hears a commercial spot utilizing any of Ani's music be sure to call the "girl police" !!! ;-) Regards from my little plastic castle, Mark Nashville, tN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:10:06 EDT From: Adangerz@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: flaming red lyric -Reply In a message dated 6/17/98 7:07:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MC1@wallerlaw.com writes: << Elaine, One of the problems at the moment is that not all of us on the list have access to a copy of the new CD. Yes, we can read the lyrics on the archive page but it's not the same. I'll reserve my observaitons till I've had a chance to digest the new CD. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN >> Tis sadly true, though not through lack of effort. I went to Amoeba Records in Berkeley (where I know alot of people including a couple of the owners) in hopes of buying their advance copy. It turns out no one will send them promo copies because they sell them in the store. I guess I have to wait another week like everyone else. Sigh. Waiting with happy headphones for the next Patty installment, Adangerz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:13:34 -0400 From: lgrady@lnmta.bentley.edu Subject: MM: They're palying it! WooHoo! WBOS in boston just started playing OBL!! I requested it what, a week ago? But hey, it's on!!!!! YAY!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:25:17 -0400 From: Erin Scrafford Subject: MM: RE: They're playing it! I, too, heard OBL on the radio. Yesterday on the ZONE station in Albany, NY. It wasn't until the chorus came on and I heard the lyric that I knew it was her. 6 days and counting... >---------- >From: lgrady@lnmta.bentley.edu[SMTP:lgrady@lnmta.bentley.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 1:13 PM >To: mad-mission@smoe.org >Subject: MM: They're palying it! > >WooHoo! > >WBOS in boston just started playing OBL!! I requested it what, a week ago? >But hey, it's on!!!!! > >YAY!! > > > ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #164 *********************************