From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #61 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttour.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com/road/index.html * and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Friday, March 6 1998 Volume 02 : Number 061 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM:TONY ["Joseph Silin" ] MM: Tony [hkoehler@admin.austin.isd.tenet.edu (Holly Burton Koehler)] Re: MM: Tony lyrics [lindsp@cts.com (Lindsey Padgett)] Re: MM: Tony lyrics [AS IS143 ] Re: MM: tony [shoes ] MM: read this if you are sendin me requests (or tapes) for the ann abors shows [AS IS143 ] Re: MM: tony [EMSTER68 ] MM: Re: Tony [W1GGY2 ] Re: MM: Re: Tony [heidi burtt ] Re: MM: Re: Tony [David Lewis ] Re: MM: tony [David Lewis ] Re: MM: Re: Tony [caroline bonnivier ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:23:20 -0500 From: "Joseph Silin" Subject: MM:TONY I recently learned that a friend from high school named Kevin had just committed suicide. This gentleman was 40 years old and was very sick with cancer. Nonetheless, when I heard of his death at his own hand, I felt a great loss. So, I can understand why Patty Griffin might be moved to write a song about that subject, if she experienced a similar loss. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:31:40 -0600 From: hkoehler@admin.austin.isd.tenet.edu (Holly Burton Koehler) Subject: MM: Tony REALLY Really really well put! >While Patty's lyrics are certainly open for interpretation, I feel that she >is pretty straight forward in her writing, especially in a song like >"Tony." Get past the slurs and you will find a strong social message. > >The song is about a very sad and tragic situation of a boy named Tony who >commits suicide. Why? Simply because he was gay. It has to do with Tony's >feelings about his own sexuality and the way society views homosexuality. >Obviously, he was filled with self-hatred for being gay. Where does this >hatred come from? It comes from the views that society has about >homosexuals. When she refers to "that little faggot staring back at him" >she is certainly using it in a derogatory way because that is how Tony >viewed himself...as a little faggot. He was probably called that all is >life and finally started to believe that was all he was and all that he >would ever be. The message is loud and clear: How sad that he could not >bear to live in this world just because he was gay. Life is worth much more >than someone's sexual preference. I cannot believe that in this day and age >we still cannot accept people for who and what they are. That, to me is her >message. I don't understand why people would think that the song is >hurtful. It is very honest and in this case, the truth hurts. It is better >to talk about it then to ignore it, hoping it'll just go away. That never >solves anything. > >Chris Kornmann >chrisk@cmj.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:57:43 -0800 From: lindsp@cts.com (Lindsey Padgett) Subject: Re: MM: Tony lyrics Thanks for the lyrics! My guesses to the ???? parts are in parentheses: >does anyone remember tony >a quiet boy, little over-wieght >he had breasts like a girl >when i wasnt too busy feeling lonely >i'd stare over his shoulder >at a map of the world > >he always finished all his homework >raised his hand in homerooom >??.......................?? attendence (called the morning attendance) >with the pledge alligence to the ? (and pledge allegiance to the gloom) > >chorus: >hey tony whats so good about dying >he said i think i might do a little dying today >he looked in the mirror and saw that little faggot starin back at em >pulled out a gun and blew himself away > >i hated every day of highschool >its funny i guess you did too >its funny how i never knew >there i was sitting right behind you > >they wrote it in the local rag >death comes to the local fag >i guess you finally stopped believing that any hope would ever find you >well i know that story i was sitting right behind you > >hey tony whats so good about dying >he said i think i might do a little dying today >he looked in the mirror and saw that little faggot starin back at em >pulled out a gun and blew himself away > >hey tony whats so good about dying dying >hey tony whats so good about dying dying > >hey tony whats so good about dying >he said i think i might do a little dying today >he looked in the mirror and saw that little faggot starin back at em >pulled out a gun and blew himself away >pulled out a gun and blew himself away >pulled out a gun and blew himself away >tony.. Hope that helps! :) Lindsey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:04:14 EST From: AS IS143 Subject: Re: MM: Tony lyrics In a message dated 98-03-06 13:01:24 EST, you write: > ??.......................?? attendence (called the morning attendance) > with the pledge alligence to the ? (and pledge allegiance to the gloom) > Hope that helps! :) > > Lindsey > yeah it does lindsey! thanks! i was thinking gloom, but i didnt want to try it ( i dont know why) :) thanks again:) kate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:51:37 -0500 (EST) From: shoes Subject: Re: MM: tony i heard tony at the iron horse concert for hte first time, adn speaking from a point of view that could be relatively similar to "tony's", i don't think patty has to come right out and SAY what the song means. i mean, we all know and love her, adn (i hope) know that she's not being cruel here. she's saying, "how sad. your (tony) life was miserable in high school, so was i, and we never knew each other. and now you're gone, killed yourself, from misery, and i'm still here, but i never really knew you." she's commenting on how coldhearted teenagers can be, how heartless our world is sometimes. does she need another point? i think taht's a pretty big point right there... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:54:22 EST From: AS IS143 Subject: MM: read this if you are sendin me requests (or tapes) for the ann abors shows hiya everybody... (FINALLY) i am on spring break from school, and im home for a week. just a quick note to let anyone knwo that if you are planning on sending tapes to me anytime in the next few days...send them to my home address, that way while im here i can dubb them right away and get them back to you...unfortunetly if you already send the tapes to my school address, and i didnt write you letting you know that i got them, most likely (unless i go up there this week) i wont get them til monday the 16th.. sorry about this, i just wasnt thinking..im gonna be dubbing tapes this week so if i get your package when i get back i can just send them out then. thanks! kate - ---------------- 8800 sierra ct white lake, mi 48286 - ----------------- http://members.tripod.com/~Lifey/index.html ~~sometimes all we do is cope~~ p.g ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:14:26 -0800 From: "Larry S. Greenfield" Subject: Re: MM: tony Well, it's not uncommon for me to comment on something I know nothing about. In the case of "Tony" -- which I haven't heard, although I've read all the discussion here -- it seems to me that Ziad is getting pretty close to it; perhaps Tony is looking into the mirror and seeing what all the nasty kids are "calling" him, cnontemptuously, and hating himself or feeling ashamed or overwhelmed for what he is and how he is perceived by the kids. I can't wait to hear Patty's new stuff. - -=-Larry-=- ZIAD_TOUBASSY@bm.com wrote: > > > > Re: this whole "Tony" issue, I think we're being a little quick to > judge. When I saw Patty perform this song a couple weeks ago, she > prefaced by saying that she had a horrible high school experience and > there was this boy who everyone teased and after the fact she wished > she'd known what was going on with him and maybe they could have > helped each other out. > > I think the "breasts like a girl" bit is sort of Patty channeling her > unenlightened high school self...she thought at the time that it was > OK to rag on this kid, etc. And in the song, doesn't she use "fag" > and "faggot" to refer to what Tony's thinking about himself. From > what I know from friends, etc., a lot of gay folks have to fight their > own prejudice against homosexuality when dealing with coming out -- > hence, I think, Patty's point. > > Just my two cents. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:16:01 EST From: EMSTER68 Subject: Re: MM: tony It means that there was nothing wrong with him or the fact that he was gay! So...what a shame his life ended so tragically!!!!!!!!!! There is no room on this earth for judging people or making them feel bad about themselves just because they are different from you! The Homosexual Teen Suicide rate is so high! It's rediculous and a shame and should NOT be! I feel Patty is trying to make people aware of their own homophobia and they should acknowledge it, release it, and move on!!! As Jewel does (if you insist on making the comparison) on Pieces of you. STOP HOMOPHOBIA NOW! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:26:19 EST From: W1GGY2 Subject: MM: Re: Tony Hi all, I'm new to the list. I saw Patty in NY a couple weeks ago and heard this song for the first time (I only heard it once as well). My interpretation actually was a bit different from those of you who've posted. I don't necessarily think that Tony was gay at all! He may have been, but what were the people around him basing it on? The fact that he was overweight, had enlarged breasts, perfect grades and attendance. That's all those people saw and isn't it so easy to pick on someone like that?! And calling someone a faggot is a pretty common slur to throw around. I think even when she talks about Tony calling himself a faggot, it's possible that it's not literal. It's just that he started buying into everyone else's vision of him. Like he knows it's not true but feels he could never get that across to anyone. Anyway, whether it's about being gay or fat or whatever, I guess the point is still pretty much the same. And either way, she is definitely just using the shocking, but truthful, language to get that point across. My favorite line is "when i wasnt too busy feeling lonely i'd stare over his shoulder at a map of the world". That just says so much! Amy In a message dated 3/6/98 5:34:17 PM, owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org wrote: >The song is about a very sad and tragic situation of a boy named Tony who >commits suicide. Why? Simply because he was gay. It has to do with Tony's >feelings about his own sexuality and the way society views homosexuality. >Obviously, he was filled with self-hatred for being gay. Where does this >hatred come from? It comes from the views that society has about >homosexuals. When she refers to "that little faggot staring back at him" >she is certainly using it in a derogatory way because that is how Tony >viewed himself...as a little faggot. He was probably called that all is >life and finally started to believe that was all he was and all that he >would ever be. The message is loud and clear: How sad that he could not >bear to live in this world just because he was gay. Life is worth much more >than someone's sexual preference. I cannot believe that in this day and age >we still cannot accept people for who and what they are. That, to me is her >message. I don't understand why people would think that the song is >hurtful. It is very honest and in this case, the truth hurts. It is better >to talk about it then to ignore it, hoping it'll just go away. That never >solves anything. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:07:07 -0800 From: heidi burtt Subject: Re: MM: Re: Tony what does that mean "I stared over at a map of the world? Heidi W1GGY2 wrote: > > Hi all, I'm new to the list. I saw Patty in NY a couple weeks ago and heard > this song for the first time (I only heard it once as well). My interpretation > actually was a bit different from those of you who've posted. I don't > necessarily think that Tony was gay at all! He may have been, but what were > the people around him basing it on? The fact that he was overweight, had > enlarged breasts, perfect grades and attendance. That's all those people saw > and isn't it so easy to pick on someone like that?! And calling someone a > faggot is a pretty common slur to throw around. I think even when she talks > about Tony calling himself a faggot, it's possible that it's not literal. It's > just that he started buying into everyone else's vision of him. Like he knows > it's not true but feels he could never get that across to anyone. Anyway, > whether it's about being gay or fat or whatever, I guess the point is still > pretty much the same. And either way, she is definitely just using the > shocking, but truthful, language to get that point across. > > My favorite line is "when i wasnt too busy feeling lonely > i'd stare over his shoulder at a map of the world". That just says so much! > > Amy > > In a message dated 3/6/98 5:34:17 PM, owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org wrote: > > >The song is about a very sad and tragic situation of a boy named Tony who > >commits suicide. Why? Simply because he was gay. It has to do with Tony's > >feelings about his own sexuality and the way society views homosexuality. > >Obviously, he was filled with self-hatred for being gay. Where does this > >hatred come from? It comes from the views that society has about > >homosexuals. When she refers to "that little faggot staring back at him" > >she is certainly using it in a derogatory way because that is how Tony > >viewed himself...as a little faggot. He was probably called that all is > >life and finally started to believe that was all he was and all that he > >would ever be. The message is loud and clear: How sad that he could not > >bear to live in this world just because he was gay. Life is worth much more > >than someone's sexual preference. I cannot believe that in this day and age > >we still cannot accept people for who and what they are. That, to me is her > >message. I don't understand why people would think that the song is > >hurtful. It is very honest and in this case, the truth hurts. It is better > >to talk about it then to ignore it, hoping it'll just go away. That never > >solves anything. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:28:21 -0400 From: David Lewis Subject: Re: MM: Re: Tony >what does that mean "I stared over at a map of the world? It means she sat behind him in Geography class. *********************************** Graphic Design - Multimedia - Web Design email: dlewis@accesscable.net web: http://mypage.accesscable.net/~dlewis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:27:33 -0400 From: David Lewis Subject: Re: MM: tony >It means that there was nothing wrong with him or the fact that he was gay! While I have no doubt that this is what Patty believes, it was not at all clear to me upon first listening. >It means that there was nothing wrong with him or the fact that he was gay! >So...what a shame his life ended so tragically!!!!!!!!!! >There is no room on this earth for judging people or making them feel bad >about themselves just because they are different from you! >The Homosexual Teen Suicide rate is so high! It's rediculous and a shame and >should NOT be!... You don't need to tell me that. All of the above is obvious. The problem is that although that is certainly the message I wanted to hear, I didn't actually hear it upon first listening. I was left wondering what the point was of a song with lines like "I read it in the local rag, death comes to the local fag". As I have written in previous posts, I find it hard to imagine that Patty would ever intend any harm by her music, but nevertheless, upon *first listening* I *was* left wondering. Ok? Anyway, I would very much like to thank everyone who posted with their thoughts on the song and I would especially like to thank the person who posted the lyrics. This flurry of posts has given me a much clearer picture of the song and of how Patty felt about the whole thing... which helps a great deal. Nevertheless, I don't think I will ever be able to listen to it again. It's not a judgemental thing about the song or Patty or anything at all like that, it's just too painful for me because of an almost identical tragedy that occured in my family not too long ago. >As Jewel does (if you insist on making the comparison) on Pieces of you. >STOP HOMOPHOBIA NOW! No one on the Patty list made any comparison to Pieces of You. That was a quote from a post on the Dar list. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:41:18 -0500 From: caroline bonnivier Subject: Re: MM: Re: Tony >what does that mean "I stared over at a map of the world? "i'd stare over his shoulder at a map of the world" im pretty sure just creates the image of her sitting behind him in your average everyday high school classroom. she also stated, as several other people pointed out, that she sat behind him for four years. maybe it was just homeroom or maybe it was geography class...either way, i think the majority of high school classrooms have a map in the front of the room. btw, that was one of my favorite lines too. peace and stuff to everyone caroline ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #61 ********************************