From: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org (lucy-list-digest) To: lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: lucy-list-digest V6 #181 Reply-To: lucy-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk lucy-list-digest Thursday, December 23 2004 Volume 06 : Number 181 In this issue: [lucy-list] A few questions for Phil Garner [lucy-list] to Gina Re: [lucy-list] Lucy and God [lucy-list] Top 10 of 2004 [lucy-list] To Roxy [lucy-list] merry xmas, to be a jew and making spaces Re: [lucy-list] Top 10 of 2004 Re: [lucy-list] To Roxy [lucy-list] OK, let's put a stake in the heart of this once and for all ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: Gina Golde Subject: [lucy-list] A few questions for Phil Garner Hey Phil, I thought you ceased being a Lucy fan when she sent out that email about Bush. Did your Lucy albums sell on Amazon or did you have to destroy those God given songs with a hammer, like you said you would? Just curious. Here is an interesting part of that same message to the list: Mike wrote: I find it offensive that artists as listed in the email use this type of forum to espouse their political views. I appreciate the fact that we all have a right to express ourselves. ............... ......... shut up and sing! Phil here: Mike's view is much like mine. Great minds think alike. Gina here: But when I ask to please avoid politics and religion around here, it is fine for you to tell me that if I'm offended I need to get a life? It's OK for you to ASSUME my beliefs and lecture me on the role of God in my life? It's okay to tell me that I should believe the way you believe or shut up because I'm a minority in America? Very interesting perspective, Phil. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:55:32 -0500 From: Roxylee Subject: [lucy-list] to Gina Gina said: Your posting your strong opinions about things upon which people are polarized and > which have no context in this room does start fighting. For the last time, all I did was to express my observation of the obvious bias on the lists. And I wished the list a Merry Christmas. If anyone started a fight, Gina, it wasn't me. > You KNOW this because apparently you caused quite a stir in the > Richard room. Actually, Gina, I had nothing to do with any of the discussions there.. I endured the hateful diatribes for a month, then signed off because it was very hurtful to read. > But, still you came here and did the same. No, and you falsely accuse me. > A simple "Merry Christmas" would have sufficed if that's what you > meant. I meant to express my observation of the obvious bias and to say Merry Christmas, which I did. > Instead, you went on a little rant about being Christian etc. I, for > one, think that this was not appropriate for the content of this room. I don't hear you talking about anything Lucy related. I hear you ranting about my right to express myself freely, the way others can without reprisal. > Assuming my beliefs and condeming me for having my little minority > feelings hurt is just plain RUDE. I didn't assume anything about your beliefs, nor condemn you for anything. You are either twisting what I wrote, or you have me confused with someone else. At any rate, I'm done defending myself. You obviously missed my point entirely. Have a nice, musical day, Roxy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:14:49 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Garner Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Lucy and God Doug Fuller wrote (snipped): 1 - What makes you think I give a fuck? 2 - I don't give a fuck. 3 - Maybe she liked the song, dicknose. 4 - I presume you're an asshole. 5 - Or maybe she worked at it, shit-for-brains. 6 - You're an idiot. 7 - shut the fuck up so we don't have to listen to your bullshit drivel. 8 - Then we can count on you shutting the fuck up 9 - Fuck you. Phil comments: These comments by Doug were in reply to my comments about God in relation to Lucy's talent and in relation to folk who think they're "godless". It's a typical response from a liberal leaning person who thinks that his way of thinking is mainstream. It isn't. Doug is in a shrinking minority of folk who have such ideas about God and Christianity. Those of you who believe in God don't be afraid to say so. You're part of a great majority in the USA and the number of folk who are willing to say so is also increasing. Doug, I love you buddy. Peace and love, Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:29:34 -0500 From: "Donna Myers" Subject: [lucy-list] Top 10 of 2004 Lucy Kaplansky----The Red Thread Richard Shindell----Vuelta Eliza Gilkyson-------Land of Milk & Honey Kasey ChambersWayward Angel Patty Griffin-----------Impossible Dream Buddy Miller----------Universal United House of Prayer Hem---------------------Eveningland Tracy Grammer-----The Verdant Mile Po Girl------------------Vagabond Lullabies Greg Brown-----------Honey in the Lions Head I had the pleasure of seeing my first three picks sing together at Joes Pub last month. Thrilling!! My vote for Venue of the Year is: World Cafi Live in Philadelphia Wonderful room with great sound and good food. Lucy will be there in April!! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:04:31 -0800 (PST) From: Gina Golde Subject: [lucy-list] To Roxy Roxy wrote: It appears those with liberal views are free to denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with them about religion and/or politics, but traditionalists who dare to express themselves are being blasted. This bias is very unfair. I'm not ashamed to be a Christian conservative traditionalist American, even if it's not popular in here these days. I'm here because I love acoustic music, great songwriting, deep lyrics. Lucy is great. So is Richard. I have all their music and it doesn't matter to me what their politics are. What bothers me is all the hatred and prejudice I see from people who love the same music I do. Gina responds: If you say that you are here for the love of the music, then why even discuss politics and religion, esp. if it does not relate to the music? Prior to you bringing all this up, please give me an example how anybody in this room has denigrated you about your religion or political views. I did not attack your views, I asked that we not have these discussions in here. They are, by their very nature, inflammatory to the opposite side, whatever that side is. I am sorry if you felt personally attacked, but my request was to stay away from the topic completely - you, me and everybody. I did not and have not argued your beliefs. Let's think about your original post for a minute. Hypothetically, let's say I went to the Garth Brooks list and said something like "Happy Holidays. Yes, I'm being PC and not saying Merry Christmas because there are other religions celebrating holidays during this season. I can't believe that they still have a manger scene in my mall. I am tired of having Jesus shoved in my face. I am also tired of the attempted ban on literature like Harry Potter for religious reasons. Thank goodness they do not allow bible reading or prayer in school because I just don't want my child exposed to that. I am ashamed of this country and all the self righteous religiosity. Perhaps I should move to Canada. BTW, no offense to those conservative Christians among us." After the hostile responses I could then turn around and say that the people who listen to Garth Brooks are hateful and prejudice. How could I expect NOT to be blasted? How clueless would I be to think that I wasn't stirring up the pot? Of course there would be people who agree and disagree with me, but it is only common sense to know that I was in an area where most people would not share my views and that they would be bent out of shape over this because these are values that they feel strongly about. Yep, I would be denigrated and I'm sure I would receive very angry responses of all colors... Although I wouldn't deserve such treatment for simply expressing my views, nobody does, I would certainly be asking for it. I would most definitely be saying a whole lot more than Happy Holidays too. Roxylee wrote: Gina said: Your posting your strong opinions about things upon which people are polarized and > which have no context in this room does start fighting. For the last time, all I did was to express my observation of the obvious bias on the lists. And I wished the list a Merry Christmas. If anyone started a fight, Gina, it wasn't me. > You KNOW this because apparently you caused quite a stir in the > Richard room. Actually, Gina, I had nothing to do with any of the discussions there.. I endured the hateful diatribes for a month, then signed off because it was very hurtful to read. > But, still you came here and did the same. No, and you falsely accuse me. > A simple "Merry Christmas" would have sufficed if that's what you > meant. I meant to express my observation of the obvious bias and to say Merry Christmas, which I did. > Instead, you went on a little rant about being Christian etc. I, for > one, think that this was not appropriate for the content of this room. I don't hear you talking about anything Lucy related. I hear you ranting about my right to express myself freely, the way others can without reprisal. > Assuming my beliefs and condeming me for having my little minority > feelings hurt is just plain RUDE. I didn't assume anything about your beliefs, nor condemn you for anything. You are either twisting what I wrote, or you have me confused with someone else. At any rate, I'm done defending myself. You obviously missed my point entirely. Have a nice, musical day, Roxy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:24:49 -0500 From: Sdgold60@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] merry xmas, to be a jew and making spaces i think that there needs to be room on the list for people of different views.. i would not attempt to change the opinion of someone who has religious or political beliefs unless they are willing to hear the other side and consider that there is one.. personally, i am offended when i am wished merry xmas.. xmas is not merry... its not the holiday i celebrate. Jews are not significant as the religion that preceded christianity or that Jesus belonged to Being a jew to me, means i have a history, a culture, languages, struggles, foods, music (the wayfaring strangers and andy statman rely heavily on Klezmer and clarinets), being a jew also means i grew up with persecution. such that WAS and IS depicted in the Passion of CHRIST and will be vivid in the xmas release of the Merchant of Venice. i am holding my breath on this one... pacino or not..as shylock I am offended when the leadership in this country tried to christianize this nation. USA is founded on a separation of church and state and i am seeing that gap close. I see the antisemitism grow.. and i have experienced antisemitism all of my life. so when i read be proud to be a christian.. that is fine for you but not always fine for me.. i am not always safe in this country being a jew and i am not always safe repeating my last name in public... i appreciate that there be a space here.. especially where Lucy Kaplansky is not a christian but has chosen to include such landmark songs as the hte ANGELS rejoiced and has recorded such christian artists as Buddy and Julie Miller, that a space where all are included not just the christians. my mind and heart are open and appreciate gospel music and songs that include Jesus even though i dont believe in jesus christ as a diety.. so i am offended to be wished merry christmas... and prefer not to be wished anything...religious cards dont send me..and i wonder if the sender knows I am a jew when i get them in the mail...Xmas is another day and if the stores were open and restaurants were open, id be shopping... at least i get a three day weekend out of the deal sharonG - -- She said a good day Ain't got no rain She said a bad day's when I lie in bed And think of things that might have been paul simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:54:29 -0600 From: "PhotoTwang" Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Top 10 of 2004 And here's my opinion on the "Best of 2004" #1 Universal United House of Prayer - Buddy Miller #2 Have A Little Faith - Mavis Staples #3 Loaded - Jeff & Vida #4 The Red Thread - Lucy Kaplansky #5 Feels Like Home-Deluxe Edition (CD/DVD) - Norah Jones #6 One Moment More - Mindy Smith #7 Lifeline - Iris DeMent #8 Lonely Runs Both Ways - Alison Krauss + Union Station #9 The Dana Owens Album - Queen Latifah #10 I Can't Be New - Susan Werner #11 Beautiful Yesterday - Dayna Kurtz #12 Impossible Dream - Patty Griffin and also: Ollabelle - Ollabelle a boot and a shoe - Sam Phillips 23rd Street Lullaby - Patti Scialfa The Verdant Mile - Tracy Grammer Wayward Angel - Kasey Chambers Stages - Ruthie Foster Eddi Reader Sings the Songs of Robert Burns - Eddi Reader The Diary of Alicia Keys - Alicia Keys Careless Love - Madeleine Peyroux Van Lear Rose - Loretta Lynn Wishbones - Slaid Cleaves Afternoon - Eleni Mandell Your Heart's in Good Hands - Al Green You Can't Save Everybody - Kevin Welch & Kieran Kane w. Fats Kaplin Crooked Still - Crooked Still Eveningland - Hem ~Richard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:31:49 -0500 From: L Kling Subject: Re: [lucy-list] To Roxy PLEASE, to all who want to continue this thread during a season of joy, take it off-list! Both sides are ruining it for the rest of us! Lisa Gina Golde wrote: >Roxy wrote: >It appears those with liberal views are free to denigrate anyone who >doesn't agree with them about religion and/or politics, but >traditionalists who dare to express themselves are being blasted. This >bias is very unfair. I'm not ashamed to be a Christian conservative >traditionalist American, even if it's not popular in here these days. >I'm here because I love acoustic music, great songwriting, deep lyrics. >Lucy is great. So is Richard. I have all their music and it doesn't >matter to me what their politics are. What bothers me is all the hatred >and prejudice I see from people who love the same music I do. > >Gina responds: >If you say that you are here for the love of the music, then why even discuss politics and religion, esp. if it does not relate to the music? Prior to you bringing all this up, please give me an example how anybody in this room has denigrated you about your religion or political views. I did not attack your views, I asked that we not have these discussions in here. They are, by their very nature, inflammatory to the opposite side, whatever that side is. I am sorry if you felt personally attacked, but my request was to stay away from the topic completely - you, me and everybody. I did not and have not argued your beliefs. > >Let's think about your original post for a minute. Hypothetically, let's say I went to the Garth Brooks list and said something like "Happy Holidays. Yes, I'm being PC and not saying Merry Christmas because there are other religions celebrating holidays during this season. I can't believe that they still have a manger scene in my mall. I am tired of having Jesus shoved in my face. I am also tired of the attempted ban on literature like Harry Potter for religious reasons. Thank goodness they do not allow bible reading or prayer in school because I just don't want my child exposed to that. I am ashamed of this country and all the self righteous religiosity. Perhaps I should move to Canada. BTW, no offense to those conservative Christians among us." After the hostile responses I could then turn around and say that the people who listen to Garth Brooks are hateful and prejudice. How could I expect NOT to be blasted? How clueless would I be to think that I wasn't stirri! > ng up the > pot? Of course there would be people who agree and disagree with me, but it is only common sense to know that I was in an area where most people would not share my views and that they would be bent out of shape over this because these are values that they feel strongly about. Yep, I would be denigrated and I'm sure I would receive very angry responses of all colors... Although I wouldn't deserve such treatment for simply expressing my views, nobody does, I would certainly be asking for it. I would most definitely be saying a whole lot more than Happy Holidays too. > >Roxylee wrote: >Gina said: > >Your posting your strong opinions about things upon which people are >polarized and > > >>which have no context in this room does start fighting. >> >> > >For the last time, all I did was to express my observation of the >obvious bias on the lists. And I wished the list a Merry Christmas. If >anyone started a fight, Gina, it wasn't me. > > > >>You KNOW this because apparently you caused quite a stir in the >>Richard room. >> >> > >Actually, Gina, I had nothing to do with any of the discussions there.. >I endured the hateful diatribes for a month, then signed off because it >was very hurtful to read. > > > >>But, still you came here and did the same. >> >> > >No, and you falsely accuse me. > > > >>A simple "Merry Christmas" would have sufficed if that's what you >>meant. >> >> > >I meant to express my observation of the obvious bias and to say Merry >Christmas, which I did. > > > >>Instead, you went on a little rant about being Christian etc. I, for >>one, think that this was not appropriate for the content of this room. >> >> > >I don't hear you talking about anything Lucy related. I hear you >ranting about my right to express myself freely, the way others can >without reprisal. > > > >>Assuming my beliefs and condeming me for having my little minority >>feelings hurt is just plain RUDE. >> >> > >I didn't assume anything about your beliefs, nor condemn you for >anything. You are either twisting what I wrote, or you have me confused >with someone else. At any rate, I'm done defending myself. You >obviously missed my point entirely. > >Have a nice, musical day, > >Roxy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:40:11 -0500 From: "Doug Fuller" Subject: [lucy-list] OK, let's put a stake in the heart of this once and for all I know everyone's sick of this topic but since I really stirred things up I'm entitled to chime in again ;-) Don't worry -- no profanity. First, let's take a little stroll down Memory Lane. IIRC things got a bit testy back around election time when some people took offense to Lucy posting a petition or something about her thoughts on the upcoming election. I don't think I even read it (such things don't interest me) and I read little if any of the follow-up (again, lack of interest). I vaguely recall some people urging others to keep to themselves over such matters -- a suggestion with which I agree. Robert Abalos summed it up nicely: "No one is going to get their mind changed on the election or anything else by comments left here." Phil Gardner [thankfully] promised to stop being a fan of Lucy's and either sell his Lucy CDs or smash them with a hammer. Upon re-reading this I would have thought he would have unsubscribed from the Lucy List. I mean, why would anyone stay on (and POST to) a mailing list for an artist they so strongly dislike? Weird. If I don't like the philosophy of a mailing list I'll either not subscribe or unsubscribe once I decide I don't like it. For example, I'd never subscribe to a list promoting larger SUVs, a list that was entirely spam, a list supporting the US invading the rest of the countries of the world or any list associated with the catholic church and it's practice of raping kids. But enough of that, back to the Lucy List... The bell for Round 2 rang when Gerry posted the [VERY funny] ultra-PC holiday greeting. Roxylee first chimed in with the religious crap. Clearly she didn't get the humor (sad, really). Gina responded asking why Roxylee would be so dumb to start another round of the nonsense. Roxylee responded saying how she didn't see how she was being inflammatory (duh!) and we were "off and running" (gotcha with that Lucy reference, didn't I?). Kevin from the UK responded with "hear, hear" but he didn't indicate what he was "hear, hearing" about. This all got batted around a bit then Phil Gardner disappointed us all by breaking his promise and came out of hiding. Gina again pleaded to knock off the nonsense. Deb Woodell couldn't leave well enough alone and chimed in also. Sharon responded to that explaining exactly why you just don't talk about this crap on lists like this. Steve Gilmore posted links to several articles which I ignored at the time but all seemed pro-christian. Phil, of course, had to keep at it and started in with his babbling again telling Gina she needed to get a life (why, dear lord, can't this guy keep a promise?). This is what set me off. Roxylee joined forces with Deb and Phil at which time I decided to let y'all know that I just don't want to hear this crap. I was going to apologize for my previous tirade but I've decided not to. Yes, I was offensive and out of line (notice the cleaned up language) but you should have heard what I *really* wanted to write :-) I also got a good number of private messages saying, in effect, "atta boy!" What we learn from all this is that everything was all fine and dandy until the bible thumpers (Roxylee, Phil Gardner, Deb Wodell) got involved. They don't understand that many people just don't want to hear their opinions on these matters. If nothing else hopefully they'll learn to keep their opinions to themselves. And Gina made a GREAT point with the Garth Brooks example. So, dudes, knock it off. Cheers, Doug Fuller Boston PS. Kristen swore once too and SHE didn't get yelled at ;-) ------------------------------ End of lucy-list-digest V6 #181 ******************************* This has been a posting from the Lucy Kaplansky mail list digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe lucy-list-digest" in the body of the message