From: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org (lucy-list-digest) To: lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: lucy-list-digest V4 #179 Reply-To: lucy-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk lucy-list-digest Friday, August 9 2002 Volume 04 : Number 179 In this issue: [lucy-list] Re: NYT Magazine cover story [lucy-list] Camelot Songs Re: [lucy-list] Re: NYT Magazine cover story Re: [lucy-list] Re: NYT Magazine cover story [lucy-list] Our Treasure... Re: [lucy-list] Our Treasure... Re: [lucy-list] Camelot Songs [lucy-list] Powerful words! [lucy-list] Lulu's Back in Town Re: [lucy-list] NYTIMES and bugs Re: [lucy-list] NYTIMES and bugs [lucy-list] success is self-defined (I) [lucy-list] success is self-defined (II) Re: [lucy-list] success is self-defined (II) [lucy-list] "Musicians" or "Entertainers" [lucy-list] What is real? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:05:20 -0400 From: Donna Myers Subject: [lucy-list] Re: NYT Magazine cover story The link to the NYT article is: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/04/magazine/04LATONA.html You guys are creeping me out with these discussions about bugs and bats. Should I have my husband check my NJ house attic for bats? I liked the cheese discussion a lot more!!! Was planning to make the trip to Huntington, NY but my 7yr old woke up with a fever. Say hi to Lucy for me!! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:24:16 -0400 From: Elwestrand Subject: [lucy-list] Camelot Songs ETimothy asked for Camelot songs. Three come to mind. There's Monty Python's song from "The Holy Grail." Hard to imagine Lucy rhyming Camelot with Spam-a-lot though. Second, "If ever I would leave you" from the musical, "Camelot." A beautiful song which Lucy could do justice. Third, Jack Hardy's song, The Knight's Dream. Lucy should know this song since its on the Jack Hardy cover tribute "To the White Goddess," on which she sings. This is actually one of my favorite albums, which has become very hard to get(you have to buy it out of Jack's hand). I love Jack Hardy, but he doesn't have a beautiful voice - although his voice moves me too. Women singing his songs are transcendant. E-Elwestrand "She dances on Arthur's Grave, Amidst the ruins Solisbuy plain, Glastonbury's setting sun, And counts her suitors one by one." Jack Hardy The Knight's Dream ________________________________________________ Get your own "800" number Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:27:02 -0400 From: bbubar@hearst.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Re: NYT Magazine cover story Yes, thanks for the link, Donna. I realized it would have been more polite of me to provide it if I was going to rant about it, but my Internet connection was being fickle last night and I didn't want to tax it with an extra search. Don't worry...chances are you don't have bats. But hey, it hasn't ALL been creepy...I thought those bat pictures were pretty cool. Benay The link to the NYT article is: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/04/magazine/04LATONA.html You guys are creeping me out with these discussions about bugs and bats. Should I have my husband check my NJ house attic for bats? I liked the cheese discussion a lot more!!! Was planning to make the trip to Huntington, NY but my 7yr old woke up with a fever. Say hi to Lucy for me!! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:27:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Libby Wiebel Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Re: NYT Magazine cover story > You guys are creeping me out with these discussions about bugs > and > bats. Should I have my husband check my NJ house attic for > bats? I > liked the cheese discussion a lot more!!! Oh I like *this* one a whole lot more... I don't feel the least bit guilty for posting "NLC"... because its roots can't be traced back to me! *big "cheesy" grin* And speaking of "creeping me out".... whoever posted the link to that nasty picture of that nasty bug yesterday (sorry... don't remember who or any more details).... you should have warned me! They just about had to peel me off the ceiling after I looked at it... :) Later -- Libby ===== libbywiebel@yahoo.com http://www.libbywiebel.com http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/libby_wiebel.shtml "Nothing would ever happen if we always stayed the same." - Nerissa Nields (The Sweetness) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:04:12 -0500 From: "Timothy Bruce" Subject: [lucy-list] Our Treasure... Benay wrote >>>I mean, in a selfish way I find it nice that Lucy hasn't achieved the kind of "success" that is accompanied by screaming hordes...it's nice to be able to buy tickets to see Lucy without dialing Ticketmaster on three phones at once in order to get through<<< Hey, Benay! Different strokes for different folks! Try being philosophical about this (Zen, eastern sorta philosophical...) You can make the same case that "people don't know what they are missing" for everything from what they eat to what they do on their vacations. (What? you're gonna sit here and watch a movie on the hotel TV instead of walking on the seashore under the full moon?.....OK, all right then....) What's truly hard to believe is that the better options out there are sometimes ACTUALLY INVISIBLE to many people because of prior conditioning but this has always been the case. Best just let this one lie. We have found a very good thing in Lucy and even as she continues to expand the sheer numbers of people whose lives she touches, she still manages to give us the impression that we are all special in her eyes and unique and critical to her continued success. I wouldn't doubt that Dar Williams has been a fine model for Lucy here. I too find it hard to believe that media fabrications can get so popular (The Archies, The Monkees, Milli Vanilli, etc.) but it's best to not lie awake at night fretting about "what might have been" for all of the talented singer-songwriters in the contemporty urban-folk fold. We have a treasure here and now in Lucy. A singer-songwriter, guitarist and engaging live performer like this is THE REAL THING. Aspects of our treasure will change over time (as Universal Law would dictate) but I would hope that, whatever direction Lucy's career (or life) takes her, it remains fun and fresh and creatively vibrant for her. ETimothy in south Minneapolis (which has the closest thing I've seen to screaming hordes at a Lucy show....whe she plays the Cedar Cultural Center!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:48:53 -0400 From: bbubar@hearst.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Our Treasure... You're perfectly right, Timothy, and I don't think we really disagree. I'm not trying to say everybody has to like Lucy's music---certainly, different people have different tastes, and that's not only fine, it's as it should be. Also, I certainly don't think the popular version of "success" is the be-all and end-all, which is why I put it in quotes...in all the ways you mentioned, Lucy is as successful as she needs to be in my mind, and constantly growing even more so. I just dislike the manufacture of a musical career from scratch in virtually an instant, the creation of something from nothing, and the fact that it can be so celebrated; I find it a large-scale swindle, and that's what made me react to the article. Surely it happens all the time, but I don't have to like it. Anyway, it's not keeping me awake at night (I have plenty of other issues in my life to serve that purpose!) and I don't think I'll be going out to protest it anytime soon. I'm just going to keep going to see Lucy and Dar and the Nields and all the others I like, and buying their music, and being happy to be able to do those things. I get to see Lucy in 8 hours or so...and my kind road buddies for this journey, Sharon and Suzi, sooner than that. In the meantime, back to Camelot... Benay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:59:16 EDT From: Bn2Synthsz@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Camelot Songs In a message dated 8/8/2002 11:24:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, elwestrand@ureach.com writes: > This is actually one of my > favorite albums, which has become very hard to get(you have to > buy it out of Jack's hand). I love Jack Hardy, but he doesn't > have a beautiful voice - although his voice moves me too. Women > singing his songs are transcendant. > > Believe it or not, I'm not famliar with Jack's music at all. He was at the New Bedford Summerfest but I missed all his sets. He's opening up our season at the me & thee coffeehouse and I just finished writing the press release about him! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:10:25 -0500 From: "Timothy Bruce" Subject: [lucy-list] Powerful words! >>>I just dislike the manufacture of a musical career from scratch in virtually an instant, the creation of something from nothing, and the fact that it can be so celebrated; I find it a large-scale swindle<<< "Large Scale Swindle"...now that's pretty powerful language, Benay! It's probably true, too! Personally, I have drawn only one "line in the sand" lately....that when at a "folk festival" one might hold the realistic expectation that performaers bring and play actual instruments--and that all the noted coming from the stage can be attributed to someone up there performing. I did not have the opportunity to go to Winnipeg this year, but I got a report of a really high-powered mainstage set that was sort of rappin' poetry to a pre-recorded soundtrack--a first for them, I believe. I don't think I am being unreasonable to say that acts that need to bring pre-recorded tracks or MIDI triggered soundbites with them to "fill out their sound" or save on expenditures for musicians should probably look for a festival that better fits them--there are plenty of festivals out there. But I had a hard time getting anyone at that party to agree with me on this point. The bottom line (IMHO) has gotta be: At a "folk festival" all the notes come from actual performers actually playing instruments. I think a lot of the "pseudo musicians" making it big out there right now are doing so in part by utilizing these types of technological crutches. There are "stars" out there that make a living singing live to pre-recorded tracks, even lip-synching to someone else's voice (Bollywood Indian pop). I have to beleive that would be hard to get "real musicians" to go along with a farce of the type that you described earlier. If I paid a good price for a concert ticket and encountered this, I just might call it a "swindle", too. Anybody else got any strong feelings on this? Timothy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:14:12 -0400 From: Phil Kalina <76106.566@compuserve.com> Subject: [lucy-list] Lulu's Back in Town Wow, either National Public Radio or WAMU (the local affiliate I'm listening to) just played a snippet of "Lulu's Back in Town". I've heard Irving Kaplansky play that song on piano as sort of an into for Lucy. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:19:02 -0400 From: Sdgold60@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] NYTIMES and bugs firstly, benay.. i was in the Zen Palate in Union Square when two women eating noodles and sesame medalions got up and screamed... One of those Lucy-Benay bugs was crawling up the wall.. some guy..took his g/fs shoe and killed it and swept it onto the sidewalk..where the wait staff all had to go look at the damn dead bug... makes for interesting dinner conversation.... Secondly.. the making of an artist is not new.. there is a guy who "made" Backstreets, NYSC, and O-Town.. he was profiled on 60 minutes or 20/20..it was interesting to see how he picks the guys, gets a stylist, choreographer, songs etc.. the making of a boys band and he is making a girls band NOT the spice girls either... then there was the making of the monkees..they were fabricated too... its an old story... what is that TV show.. that the girl just got the boot and she has been on every am show..she lost to JUSTIN.. dont they all lose to Justin sharon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:34:22 -0400 From: bbubar@hearst.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] NYTIMES and bugs Wow, I'm entering the common language! People dream of this. From the last week or so, we have: pulling a Benay = taking a topic seemingly completely unrelated to Lucy Kaplansky and relating it to Lucy Kaplansky and Lucy-Benay bug = a scary, horrible insect that must be vanquished at (almost) all costs So who's doing the submissions to Webster's? (grin) Benay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Libby Wiebel Subject: [lucy-list] success is self-defined (I) Whoops... I did it again... :) Wrote a message so long that the list-gods denied it. *grin* Here it is... in 2 parts... this being part 1 - ------------------------------------------------------ Hmmm... I don't know if it's "strong feelings" or just an opinion... but it seems to me that a lot of what we're talking about is success.... Between reading the Times article yesterday and then hearing chatter about it on this and various other lists, I've really been thinking a lot about "success" in the last couple of days. Strange beast, it is... because the more I think about it, the more I realize how incredibly self-defined it is... or at least (IMO) should be. For instance... I got a call over my lunch today from a guy who books musicians for farmers markets in the Arlington/DC area. He had seen me at an open mic... and asked for my card... and boom... after a couple of follow ups from me, here he was, calling my cell phone with a couple of dates for me to pick from. I was like... wow... success. Someone knows my name... calls me up... wants ME... and will even pay me about the equivalent of a tank of gas to come up and play. WOW. So... is that success?? I think so. Other people might not believe it. After all, I'll be standing in the hot sun on a street corner, singing with my little tip bucket. You might say... that's not success, that's called down-and-out. But I think it is success. For me-here-now, at least. Do I want it to be bigger? More? Yeah. Sure. Someday... when I'm ready. But for now... I'll live with (and be HAPPY about) my little WOW experiences. :) And... for the record... I really like farmers markets. *grin* So... just like this up & coming teen role-model singer thinks that what she's doing is success... well... I think my little milestones are success. In the same breath, I'd never in a million years put myself in that made-over-and-molded "star" category... but that's her option, and if she reaches her kind of "success" with it, then more power to her. So... what about our fave singer and list-topic, Lucy? Well... I can't reach inside her head and figure out what she thinks success is... But I really hope that she thinks what she's got is it... because I sure like it... and I certainly see it that way! Thought about that the other night when I saw Shawn Colvin perform... how glad I am that Lucy went back to singing... that Shawn picked up and produced The Tide... that the whole little chain of events was set in motion, however it may have worked.... because all of the various successes along the way made for something that I, for one, am happy about now. Sometimes, part of me wishes I knew exactly what it would take to have that big-old world-defined S-U-C-C-E-S-S out there... but then I look at it again... and if I just define my own successes... well, then... I'm happy enough. So... bringing it back to the article... I'm not sure I completely disagree with what "they" are doing... so long as the singer (I don't remember her name) isn't sacrificing anything bigger and more precious _to her_ to have "it".... it, being "Britney Spears Success".... I'll probably never listen to her. But... if she's happy, then... well... let her be. And I see it as a different issue entirely as to whether I'd let a child of mine latch on to the whole sex-laden and lipstick-driven culture that goes with it... Now.... Benay said: >>>I just dislike the manufacture of a musical career from >>>scratch in virtually an instant, the creation of something >>>from nothing, and the fact that it can be so celebrated; I >>>find it a large-scale swindle And... ETimothy went on to say.... >>>"Large Scale Swindle"...now that's pretty powerful language, >>>Benay! It's probably true, too! And then said.... >>>If I paid a good price for a concert ticket and encountered >>>this, I just might call it a "swindle", too. So yeah... if I expected to go and hear a symphony... and it was pre-recorded and the violins just waved their bows in the air... well yeah... I'd call that a swindle, too. BUT... I think the difference is that we've come to an expectation of what a symphony is supposed to be. And... it's not just a couple of people's expection. I venture that it's pretty well expected from most folks. Well... what's the "expectation" from folk? I'm not sure. Yeah, I like it when I hear all of the music straight from the performer... but... in the same breath, I'll say that I loved a recent Suzanne Vega rendition of "Blood Makes Noise" where she gave the sound people a pre-recorded synth track... no one on stage played anything (except for her with her ting-sha)... and it was all vocals. OK... is that folk? I don't know... what's the expectation? Not sure... but regardless, I liked it, and I'd still for surely call her a folk musician. - ------------- part 2 coming........ ===== libbywiebel@yahoo.com http://www.libbywiebel.com http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/libby_wiebel.shtml "Nothing would ever happen if we always stayed the same." - Nerissa Nields (The Sweetness) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Libby Wiebel Subject: [lucy-list] success is self-defined (II) continued.......... - ------------------------------------------- I think expectations have changed and will continue to change. I mean... for a great while, it was expected that you mic your guitar rather than use any kind of pickup (partly beacause the good ones are a relatively new technology... but)... Peter, Paul, and Mary still do this. But... we'll note that Joan Baez switched to a pickup. What's right? What's expected? I'm not sure... So... not that I don't usually prefer all music made there on the spot on stage... but... when ETim. says: >>>one might hold the realistic expectation that performaers >>>bring and play actual instruments--and that all the noted >>>coming from the stage can be attributed to someone up there >>>performing. I think that might be a tad bit much... I'm not sure that we're at a point where we can have a completely "realistic expectation". Bob Dylan and his electric Newport... is Dylan still folk? Yeah. But did he do something out of the ordinary? Yeah. But then... where do we put someone like the Who-like, electrified Gandolph Murphy who we saw at FRFF? Where are the lines? I'm not sure.... and I'm not sure who's eligible to set those "expectation boundaries".... because obviously a lot of our opinions will differ greatly.... so much that the conventional boundaries would never stick. Now... who do we call a "real musician"?? Quoting ETimothy again... >>>I think a lot of the "pseudo musicians" making it big out >>>there right now are doing so in part by utilizing these types >>>of technological crutches. There are "stars" out there that >>>make a living singing live to pre-recorded tracks, even lip- >>>synching to someone else's voice (Bollywood Indian pop). I >>>have to beleive that would be hard to get "real musicians" to >>>go along with a farce of the type that you described >>>earlier. Anybody else got any strong feelings on this? Whoa! I don't like that... "pseudo musicians"??? Look at it this way. There are a lot of people out there who play guitar. But... a great number of them know little-to-nothing about reading music (i.e. if you gave them a musical score, like for an opera or symphony, they couldn't follow it). But... if someone is a wonderful performer... yet can't read a note.... are they a "real musician"? I sure hope so... (unless we delve into the performer-versus-musician discussion... which might be what we're actually doing... just under a different guise). I'd just say that they aren't the same kind of musician as someone who has perhaps had that particular training. Are they lacking an important skill? Well, that depends on who you talk to. And technology... if it's there, then why not use it? Perhaps I don't like the sound of a certain A, B, or C... well that's fine... But I wouldn't go so far as to call them a pseudo-musician for it. And there is a lot to be said for discovering a "new" sound. e.g. Allette Brooks used the clacking sound of someone typing on a computer keyboard as background percussion on an album. I think that's pretty darned cool! Orthodox, no. But innovative? Sure! So why not use pre-recorded or electronic stuff? Someone created it in the first place... And someone else is using it along with (well for what we're talking about here) voice... an instrument in its own right... to make great sounds. True, I don't like certain sounds... but others are great! Would I call them folk? Maybe, maybe-not... it depends. And as far as technology goes... I'm not sure that we have the right to say that Chip Davis and the Mannheim Steamroller are not "real" musicians.... but... if you ever see them live... you'll note that there are a lot more sounds coming from the stage than could ever be produced by the number of people up there. Traditional? No... but music? I sure think so! Maybe it's better to speak in terms of "classicaly trained musician" or "garage band musician" or "hollywood pop musician" or "musician by-ear" or "performance based musician" or "acoustic musician" or.... etc, etc... I really think the idea of a "real musician" is a slap in the face. Anyway... I think I'm babbling... and I don't know how much of this will actually make sense... but I'll just send... Just my $.10 worth... :) Just remember... you're getting this from a warped musician, herself, who owns 3 tambourines and teaches her piano students how to rap. :) Libby ===== libbywiebel@yahoo.com http://www.libbywiebel.com http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/libby_wiebel.shtml "Nothing would ever happen if we always stayed the same." - Nerissa Nields (The Sweetness) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:49:21 -0700 From: John Alvord Subject: Re: [lucy-list] success is self-defined (II) Unless you have a good definition of success, you will always be disappointed. In the world of popular music, every artist follows an up and down path during their career. Michael Jackson will never be as "popular = record sales) as the middle 1980s. Bruce Springsteen sold, was it 12 million of Born to Run, and he might sell 3 of "Rising". So in raw sales terms. every artist's popularity will rise and fall. If nothing else, your fans grow old and die and so do you! [avoid digression on Eva Cassidy] I remember an interview with Dar where she talked about wanting a slow-building career where she gets to record and perform as long as she wants to. She had offers from major record labels and stayed with a profitable TV-music company where her level of success is appreciated and she won't get dropped when the sales don't soar past 2 million units. I sure hope Lucy K. appreciates her success and continues for a long time. john alvord ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:01:20 -0500 From: "Timothy Bruce" Subject: [lucy-list] "Musicians" or "Entertainers" Libby, Do take care not to attribute thoughts to me which I did not put forth....lest I come across as an old curmudgeon! I was quite specific in describing my "line in the sand" as applying to a gathering that calls itself a "folk festival". And I acknowledge that there is no such thing as "purist" folk! Now bluegrass is a different kettle of fish. I would bet anyone a hundred bucks that if someone at an established bluegrass festival surreptitiously used technological tricks to make their act sound more dynamic or to make the actual playing easier for the musicians--and through some technical SNAFU got caught--they would be booed off the stage and never invited back. We are not that rabid about content at folk festivals! But I do believe "playing actual instruments" is a realistic benchmark to consider when booking bands for festivals that are trying to specialize in that broad genre we loosely title "folk". My earlier reference of the extreme example was "BOLLYwood", not HOLLYwood. In essence, Indian movie stars and starlets film so-called "Bollywood" musicals in which they lip-synch to a professional vocalist's recording. Fine and dandy for the movie! But then they go on lavish, Rolling Stones-like tours and re-enact their movie performances to huge stadium crowds, lip-synching to the pre-recorded tracks from the original movie. This is a HUGE business in south Asia, rivaling Hollywood in terms of popularity and profitability. But is it a live concert? I would call these performers, "entertainers" rather than "musicians". The bottom line is, when we buy a ticket to something, what we are paying for is entertainment. But there is sometimes deliberate deceit out there at live shows which some fans pick up on and others don't. Because I have some familiarity with most all of the instruments up on a stage, I pick up on the tricks and shortcuts most of the time. Alas it is a growing trend. It's up to festival promoters to pick and choose the acts that they want at their particular festival. OUr only choice is whether to keep coming back. But keep in mind that festivals evolve over time and can "drift" from their original mission. I just wanted to throw out the proposition that at FOLK festivals, the actual music you HEAR should be made "live" by the musicians on stage. There are hundreds of other festivals out there for the hundreds of other types of music. At the Winnipeg FOLK Festival, it has become clear to me in the past two years that in an effort to be more things to more people, they have become LESS to me by drifting from their original mission. (I can only imagine the cat-fights that must go on up there at the booking committee meetings!) It's a pity that they haven't booked any of the acts by Northeastern US singer-songwriters that I love so much like Lucy, Dar, the Nields, Dave and Tracy, Richard, etc. for a couple of years now (despite my pestering) because they are expanding the festival to more mainstream stuff like "The Fabulous Thunderbirds", and "The Crash Test Dummies". Mission drift. I hope FRFF doesn't succumb to it. With that said, I must re-iterate that I am no curmudgeon and play approximately half the year acoustic and half the year electric. I love my "effects pedals" and I really enjoy taking people on mind-bending shamanic journeys through music. The comments I made were really only intended to apply to "folk festivals" and they were only intended to stimulate debate (which they seem to be doing!). Love ya Libby! T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:30:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Deb Woodell Subject: [lucy-list] What is real? Interesting discussion going on here. I like reading all the great posts. I don't have a real problem with folks who add a little "oomph" to their performances, whether it be going electric (Of course, I was much too young to actually have followed that breaking Dylan story!) or adding a few "options," as Pete and Maura Kennedy sometimes do with their guitars. To me, the "folkiness" is in the vibe, the message. As Martin Carthy once said in an interview, if everyone remained a true traditionalist, we'd still be playing music with sticks and rocks. Deb ===== You can take the rock band away from the girl and think you've tamed her. But, she'll just pick up an acoustic, give you that innocent little girl grin, quietly laugh and say? "Nevah!" HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ End of lucy-list-digest V4 #179 ******************************* This has been a posting from the Lucy Kaplansky mail list digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe lucy-list-digest" in the body of the message