From: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org (lucy-list-digest) To: lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Subject: lucy-list-digest V2 #71 Reply-To: lucy-list@smoe.org Sender: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-lucy-list-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk lucy-list-digest Sunday, March 19 2000 Volume 02 : Number 071 In this issue: [lucy-list] Re: Spell Checking Re: [lucy-list] my house [lucy-list] Or rather . . . [lucy-list] While on the subject of grammar... [lucy-list] To the ! [lucy-list] Eye Eye [none] [lucy-list] Re: lucy-list-digest V2 #70 - Or, RANT ON! [lucy-list] Wooden Ships (Crosby, Stills and Nash) Re: [lucy-list] To the ! [lucy-list] oh no! more grammar Re: [lucy-list] oh no! more grammar Re: [lucy-list] oh no! more grammar Re: [lucy-list] Wooden Ships (Crosby, Stills and Nash) Re: [lucy-list] To the ! [lucy-list] violinst analogy Re: [lucy-list] violinst analogy Re: [lucy-list] To the ! Re: [lucy-list] Re: Spell Checking [lucy-list] grammar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:22:31 EST From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] Re: Spell Checking << Let me guess..you hate jazz, too? >> Yes I do, but the analogy here would be that at least jazz players try to keep their instruments in tune. RG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:09:01 EST From: Shadyt2911@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] my house howie, some of the people in this chat area are brutal or they just don't have much of a life and they look at the splinter in your eye and ignore the board they have in theirs. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:22:18 EST From: Rongrittz@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] Or rather . . . << Yes I do, but the analogy here would be that at least jazz players try to keep their instruments in tune. >> . . . actually, that they try to PLAY in tune. RG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:00:44 -0500 From: Jeff Bernstein Subject: [lucy-list] While on the subject of grammar... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:36:02 EST From: Asdalin@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] To the ! I may be in the minority, but if someone wants to post ANYTHING at all, it's their choice how they do it. I thought the point of the Lucy list was to share about Lucy, her gigs, other performers we've discovered and want to share with others, and more. Just don't read the posts you find difficult to read, and enjoy the ones you can. I would hate to see someone stop posting because the rules of grammar and spelling do not apply to their style of self expression. Please let's keep this sight fun and a place to keep in touch about all things Lucy, et al. Anne (Who usually uses toooooooooo many commas, and quite often improperly placed.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:15:24 EST From: RockinRonD@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] Eye Eye In a message dated 3/18/2000 3:23:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, RonG rings in on the thread of posts sans punctuation/proper grammar/syntax/capitalization: << It's about common courtesy and making yourself understood. Period. >> I couldn't agree more. I always make a conscientious effort to write clearly, intelligently and, hopefully, entertainingly, whenever I post to any of these Lists. And with a spell check so convenient, it's ridiculous not to use it so that everyone understands the message being conveyed. We're all adults here; there will be the occasional gaffe. But why not write in a way that shows off our intellect and education rather than in a way that shows so little concern or courtesy for the reader. Like Ron, I scroll through those same posts. I'm tired of straining my eyes. And my patience. RallyinRon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 05:25:24 PST From: "sharon g" Subject: [none] i looked up from vacationland massachusetts to find a debate of artistic freedom of expression vs convention, propriety vs impropiety, courtesy vs rudeness or one of the many different frames you want to place on the discussion. the facts are that through the artistic ages there have been those who draw in teh lines with good and solid reasons and those who do not for what ever reason they choose not to color in the lines. i could detail those individuals through history but it is boring. i have appreciated reading all of your comments public and private, though i could have done without the ones that cursed me out privately..i am grateful for all the words and thoughts that came my way, positive and challenging. freedom to choose gave us delete buttons and spellcheckers we either use em or we dont. and the choose of using of them is the important fact.. i better call my postman for i fear he will have 20 spellcheckers and a horsehead that he will have to deliver when i return.. thursday i was forunate to see susan mckeown at johnnyD's with sarah T., joe luca ,Tina wheeler, and keith. and we are meeting up tonight for ellis paul. when i return to NY i have richard tickets.. thank you again sharonG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:42:47 EST From: Scharri@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] Re: lucy-list-digest V2 #70 - Or, RANT ON! Do you also correct acquaintances mispronunciations, what about your Mom? If you meet someone in a store and have a casual conversation, do you correct their grammar? Try to just take people for who/what they are and appreciate them. I've never met anyone that doesn't have some inherent good qualities....spelling/grammar isn't everyone's forte'. I used to work with a research physicist that couldn't button his shirt correctly or remember to tie his shoes. But he kept the bad guys out of your backyard through his research......The people in the city we live in never say "to be" i.e., "The car needs washed". Would you correct them all if you lived here? The L-List isn't the place for this...we are here for entertainment....not stress..which I'm starting to feel here. To me music is relaxing. Verbal volley is also fun but today, its not. Please, this is not the place....the Internet gets its personality from the casualness not pettiness. I tell you, in 26 years on the Internet, (thats since 1974 for the mathematically challenged....we haven't ranted about them yet!) this is as far from the subject as I've seen. Is there anyone out there who's income depends on this......Are you so inflexible that you can't read unless there is proper capitalization and punctuation? Does it pay bills? Then, in the scheme of things, is it that important??? Where's you sense of humor? I must be getting old. I'm ranting and I'm becoming serious about being serious... and, I seriously don't do serious very well! Sue ps I didn't use my spell checker on purpose! You guys just aren't fun to play with lately - OK, I'm finished ranting.. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:33:31 EST From: OzWoman321@aol.com Subject: [lucy-list] Wooden Ships (Crosby, Stills and Nash) Howie wisely offered: << If you don't understand what I say, that's all right - I may not be speaking to you. >> and I would like to add... <> From sharon's (and we all know this is primarily about ms. goldberg... :-) first post to the Dar-list, I felt as if she *was* speaking to me - one of her many talents is talking in lyrics, and I feel fortunate that I *know* her language... that I always *knew* the language, even before I met her, and loved her, and felt proud to call her friend... We all have our special gifts to bring to the table of these discussion lists - - conversely, what I choose to skim and/or delete could be an A-ha! epiphany moment for you... Only by being free to speak our own dialects can we accurately and intimately express ourselves in the way we do best - some of us choose to put our hearts and souls on the line every time we post, giving "strangers" a glimpse into our very personalities... Anal-retentive English major/journalism minor that I am, I wouldn't dream of abbreviating or writing in lower case... any more than the Southern in me could allow white shoes between Labor Day and Memorial Day... - but the commonality of Lucy and Dar and Bette and Barbra and MCC allows me and sharon an instant connection that no amount of grammar/syntax/typing faux pas can put asunder... ;-) It is up to each one of us to read it or not read it, get it or not get it - however, we should all feel free to Just Do It! Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:48:15 EST From: Shadyt2911@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] To the ! anne, i couldn't agree with you more love, jimmy ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 2000 18:53:12 +0000 From: "Matthew Bloomfield" Subject: [lucy-list] oh no! more grammar Just to add my tuppence: Whilst I agree that written English and its presentation is incredibly important, IMHO email has more in common with conversational English and as such can be far more flexible. The style of certain peoples writing is more akin to an accent than a breach of grammar / spelling rules and often makes for interesting reading. In a forum like an emai list to ignore posts because of spelling / grammar issues is often to igore the most interesting posters. All the best, mAtT Grammar Rules for Usenet ======================== 1. Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects. 2. Prepositions are not words to end sentences with. 3. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. 4. It is wrong to ever split an infinitive. 5. Avoid cliches like the plague. (They're old hat) 6. Also, always avoid annoying alliteration. 7. Be more or less specific. 8. Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary. 9. Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies. 10. No sentence fragments. 11. Contractions aren't necessary and shouldn't be used. 12. Foreign words and phrases are not apropos. 13. Do not be redundant; do not use more words than necessary; it's highly superfluous. 14. One should NEVER generalize. 15. Comparisons are as bad as cliches. 16. Don't use no double negatives. 17. Eschew ampersands & abbreviations, etc. 18. One-word sentences? Eliminate. 19. Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake. 20. The passive voice is to be ignored. 21. Eliminate commas, that are, not necessary. Parenthetical words however should be enclosed in commas. 22. Never use a big word when a diminutive one would suffice. 23. Kill all exclamation points!!! 24. Use words correctly, irregardless of how others use them. 25. Understatement is always the absolute best way to put forth earth shaking ideas. 26. Use the apostrophe in it's proper place and omit it when its not needed. 27. Eliminate quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." 28. If you've heard it once, you've heard it a thousand times: Resist hyperbole; not one writer in a million can use it correctly. 29. Puns are for children, not groan readers. 30. Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms. 31. Even IF a mixed metaphor sings, it should be derailed. 32. Who needs rhetorical questions? 33. Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement. 34. Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. 35. We should try to avoid sexist and patronizing remarks as well as unnecessary stereotypes, because you know how girls are, they worry their pretty little heads about all kinds of silly things. - -- Visit My New Website http://www.tthewb.u-net.com For information on Nanci Griffith, Lucy Kaplansky and me! Coming Soon - My New Amiga Pages ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:17:28 -0500 From: "Martha P. Trachtenberg" Subject: Re: [lucy-list] oh no! more grammar Oh Matt. I LOVE the grammar rule list. I work as a copy editor and proofreader and will have to print it out and post it by my desk. Heaven knows, with some of the manuscripts that come my way, I need a good laugh from time to time. Can we all go back to talking music now? It has been DAYS since I was sent hurtling out to the record store for yet another (to me) obscure artist recommended by a lister. You folks have some mighty sharp ears. Thank goodness. I have two gigs coming up in New Jersey, and now all I can think of is the danger of missing my exits and winding up in the Delaware Water Gap, thanks to Richard's song Transit. Spectacular piece of music, both the writing and the recording. It makes me long for a 2-CD player, so I could listen to it back-to-back with the Beatles' Norwegian Wood. (Ah yes. Grammarians - -- American style is indeed to make it Beatles's, but I much prefer the British choice of leaving off the second s, and as this isn't going to press, I'm using it.) Hope this finds you all well, wherever it finds you, cheers, Martha At 06:53 PM 03/18/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Just to add my tuppence: > >Whilst I agree that written English and its presentation is incredibly >important, IMHO email has more in common with conversational English >and as such can be far more flexible. The style of certain peoples >writing is more akin to an accent than a breach of grammar / spelling >rules and often makes for interesting reading. In a forum like an >emai list to ignore posts because of spelling / grammar issues is >often to igore the most interesting posters. > >All the best, > >mAtT > > >Grammar Rules for Usenet >======================== >1. Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects. >2. Prepositions are not words to end sentences > with. >3. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. >4. It is wrong to ever split an infinitive. >5. Avoid cliches like the plague. (They're old > hat) >6. Also, always avoid annoying alliteration. >7. Be more or less specific. >8. Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are > (usually) unnecessary. >9. Also too, never, ever use repetitive > redundancies. >10. No sentence fragments. >11. Contractions aren't necessary and shouldn't be > used. >12. Foreign words and phrases are not apropos. >13. Do not be redundant; do not use more words > than necessary; it's highly superfluous. >14. One should NEVER generalize. >15. Comparisons are as bad as cliches. >16. Don't use no double negatives. >17. Eschew ampersands & abbreviations, etc. >18. One-word sentences? Eliminate. >19. Analogies in writing are like feathers on a > snake. >20. The passive voice is to be ignored. >21. Eliminate commas, that are, not necessary. > Parenthetical words however should be enclosed > in commas. >22. Never use a big word when a diminutive one > would suffice. >23. Kill all exclamation points!!! >24. Use words correctly, irregardless of how > others use them. >25. Understatement is always the absolute best way > to put forth earth shaking ideas. >26. Use the apostrophe in it's proper place and > omit it when its not needed. >27. Eliminate quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson > said, "I hate quotations. Tell me what you > know." >28. If you've heard it once, you've heard it a > thousand times: Resist hyperbole; not one > writer in a million can use it correctly. >29. Puns are for children, not groan readers. >30. Go around the barn at high noon to avoid > colloquialisms. >31. Even IF a mixed metaphor sings, it should be > derailed. >32. Who needs rhetorical questions? >33. Exaggeration is a billion times worse than > understatement. >34. Proofread carefully to see if you any words > out. >35. We should try to avoid sexist and patronizing > remarks as well as unnecessary stereotypes, > because you know how girls are, they worry > their pretty little heads about all kinds of > silly things. >-- >Visit My New Website http://www.tthewb.u-net.com >For information on Nanci Griffith, Lucy Kaplansky and me! >Coming Soon - My New Amiga Pages > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:24:13 EST From: Shadyt2911@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] oh no! more grammar hey, i got an original thought. let's talk about music ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:32:29 EST From: Tricia9999@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Wooden Ships (Crosby, Stills and Nash) In a message dated 03/18/2000 10:28:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, OzWoman321@aol.com writes: > << If you don't understand what I say, that's all right - I may not be > speaking to you. >> > Bingo!!!!!! I really think part of the problem is that the default reply goes to the list rather than to the individual you are responding to. All the other lists I'm on have the individual as the default reply, so that if I really have something that would be of interest to the list, I have to think about it and make a conscious effort to send it to everyone. If it is something only in reply to that individual, I don't clutter the list with it. Maybe the list manager could think about a change? Now, back to the music... saw Richard Shindell in concert the other night and enjoyed it tremendously, especially the second set. I also saw Lucy at the same venue recently. She was laughing, conversing, having a wonderful time - of course her parents were there, too. Richard however was at work and although he has a wonderful wit and told humorous stories, we were witnessing a much more serious person. And yes he does describe himself as misanthropic, I believe. Hurray for the differences. Best, Tricia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:29:10 EST From: Wblr4@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] To the ! In a message dated 3/18/00 12:27:41 PM Central Standard Time, Asdalin@aol.com writes: << Anne (Who usually uses toooooooooo many commas, and quite often improperly placed.) >> Yes, Anne,,,,I've, been, meaning, to speak, to you, about that. wbe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:42:39 -0000 From: "Jenny" Subject: [lucy-list] violinst analogy >Yes I do, but the analogy here would be that at least jazz players try to >keep their instruments in tune. as opposed to violinists who don't give a damn. which is also an analogy of how this violinist feels about this whole sorry debate jenny* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:08:34 -0000 From: "Jenny" Subject: Re: [lucy-list] violinst analogy >as opposed to violinists who don't give a damn. which is also an analogy of >how this violinist feels about this whole sorry debate >jenny* Ok, that wasn't *supposed* to sound like that. what i mean is...who cares? i wasn't going to get involved but now i have...darn it. i don't think we should even waste the time talking about it anymore..it's just all gotten way too personal and overblown. let's all just 'be'. jenny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:26:47 EST From: Shadyt2911@aol.com Subject: Re: [lucy-list] To the ! You know all this bullshit remains me of the time I accidentally used UPPER CASES. LET'S GIVE THIS TYPE OF USELESS SHIT A REST ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:31:59 -0000 From: "IAN BUCHAN" Subject: Re: [lucy-list] Re: Spell Checking Seconded - -----Original Message----- From: Rongrittz@aol.com To: lucy-list@smoe.org Date: 18 March 2000 05:01 Subject: [lucy-list] Re: Spell Checking ><< Putt knot yore trussed in spill checquers! >> > >Cute, but that's not the point. It's not so much spelling that's the issue >-- some people just can't spell -- although I can't imagine why anybody >wouldn't just use the spell check function before they send their mail to at >least correct true misspellings. And it's not about regional dialects. It's >about common courtesy and making yourself understood. Period. > >Unless you're writing simply to see your own words in print -- essentially >writing for the sake of writing, or writing for yourself -- I'll never >understand why you wouldn't do everything you could to make your posts easy >to comprehend. Meaning appropriate capitalization Correct punctuation. >Proper spelling. And the occasional paragraph break. > >I pretty much have a policy that I immediately delete posts from people who >seem to think that breaking accepted rules of grammar and spelling is cute, >creative or somehow "eccentric." And yes, it means that I often miss posts >from some folks who I consider to be friends, but I just don't want to have >to work that hard. If you want me to read what you have to say -- and I have >to assume that's why you're writing -- you're the one who's going to have to >do the work. Sorry. > >RG > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 01:25:36 -0000 From: "Iain Geddes" Subject: [lucy-list] grammar Hello I guess I could be unpopular here but downloading all the recent messages relating to the various listers' grammar, spelling is a bit boring. I guess we in Scotland tend to rely on straight speaking, I can see the reasoning behind those of you who are irritated by certain listers but at the same time is it worth all the effort? I guess the various styles adopted on the list help me to visualise the personalities behind the names. For whatever reason I don't visualise SharonG (sorry to use you here) as speaking in a HomeCounties (English) accent and I'm sure you don't visualise a Scot speaking with a Bronx accent. I agree its a pain if its totally illegible but lets not try to prevent peoples personalities from coming to the fore. Perhaps a little come and go! Iain (2 i's), Edinburgh, Scotland ------------------------------ End of lucy-list-digest V2 #71 ****************************** This has been a posting from the Lucy Kaplansky mail list digest To unsubscribe send mail to Majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe lucy-list-digest" in the body of the message