From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V7 #464 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, August 1 2008 Volume 07 : Number 464 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) [Holly Kruse ] Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) [Holly Kruse Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) > something that I actually see it because Oops. If possible, please excuse this and all other typos that appeared in my too long, too late-at-night babbly post. Holly ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:20:58 -0700 From: West Anthony Subject: [loud-fans] One From The Heart Well, then. First of all, I would like to thank all of you who have responded to my recent musings in a positive way. PunkGirl, in particular -- you have no idea, after so long in this world believing that nobody could know what my life was like, to actually discover that somebody KNOWS what my life was like, how you made my heart glad. A million, billion, kazillion thanks to you. And now, I would like everyone to please step away from the computer, and take a breath. Maybe I'm trying to put out a burning bridge here, but I just wouldn't want to see any relationship come to an end over a heated discussion. Opinions have been expressed, buttons have been pushed... why not pause for a moment? Sleep on it. A little time and a little tolerance from all sides is all I ask for. Perhaps things will feel different a little further down the road... if not, I'll say no more. At this moment, my heart is full, thinking of you all. Kind of odd, really, coming from someone who doesn't feel comfortable around people. It's a funny old world. Love, West. "The mediator between the Brain and the Hands must be the HEART!" - -- Fritz Lang's "METROPOLIS" (1927) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:10:14 -0500 From: Holly Kruse Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Hey, wow. I lurk and lurk and lurk -- okay, maybe deleting digests unread because of all kinds of other stuff going on doesn't count as lurking, but occasionally I lurk -- and then something happens on the list, something that I actually see it because I notice there's all kinds of crazy activity on loud-fan. There are so many posts that there's an extra digest! Admittedly, because I get loud-fans in digest form I may be way late on this, but I'll give it a shot. > I was a Communications major in college. A > professor told me that black people use the word "nigger" with each other > because it takes the power away from it. I think that's brilliant. I don't claim to speak for all communication professors, but because my middle-class white person expertise doesn't seem to be what's required here, I am going to put on my communication professor hat. (Okay, I don't have a special hat for that.) I do have a doctorate in communication. I also happen to teach about this very thing in one of my classes. Here's what I would say: Appropriating a word like that is an oppositional act for the group that the word is/has been used to insult and/or oppress. Appropriating the word gives the group a measure of symbolic power. Other obvious examples of this kind of appropriation are "queer" by gay activists (e.g. "Queer Nation" in the early days of the AIDS epidemic) and "girl" by third- wave feminists. We've also seen how those words have been co-opted by the mainstream media and consumer culture ("Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"; a younger Britney Spears being representative of "girl power"). The fact that this hasn't happened with the n-word points to something going on in our culture, social structure, and history that makes this word (and of course many other racial slurs, but particularly this one) one that for systemic reasons does not seem to lose its power. Which, again, makes it a particularly powerful word to appropriate for the group it is meant to hurt. But that doesn't mean that my using it helps take its power away. These kinds of terms are very important in creating oppositional identity and defining who has the right to say what. Of the three terms I mentioned, the only one I really have social and symbolic standing to use in a non-traditional way is "girl." If I were to hear my male university president or provost, or a male member of the board of trustees, or really, anyone, refer to the "the girls on the Department of Communication faculty," that would not be good. If I were to start referring to my gay friends and colleagues and students as "queers," I do not think that they would be pleased. The same would be true -- really, really true -- if I were to use the n-word to refer to my black friends and colleagues and students. Social rules and norms are constantly in flux, including those concerning how we use language, but perhaps not as much as we think. Part of the whole picture is who has the standing to say what. For instance, in this particular unit of my class, the African-American students are quite clear and emphatic when they explain why I don't have standing to use the n-word -- my use of it would not take the sting away from the word. Quite the opposite, in fact. BTW, for an expert on race and class in the U.S., I would definitely point people to sociologist Christopher Jencks. JMHO. Holly - ----- Holly Kruse Faculty of Communication The University of Tulsa holly-kruse@utulsa.edu or holly.kruse@gmail.com http://personal.utulsa.edu/~holly-kruse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:22:46 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) On Jul 31, 2008, at 1:42 AM, Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: > As far as a limited sample set, I base it on my observations of > spending > extended amounts of time in the Detroit/Flint area, Maryland DC > area, all over > the southeast, and most recently, LA. The Payne book did wonders > for me in > opening my eyes to why certain behaviors were occuring and how to > deal with > them. I'd have to assume then, that your time in Detroit didn't include any time in the Palmer Woods, Indian Village, or New Center neighborhoods, or in the suburbs Southfield, Lathrup Village, or Oak Park, all of which are comprised of majority middle-class black populations. Even if you consider your sample large, I'd argue that it apparently wasn't very granular. -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:32:30 -0400 From: "outbound-only email address" Subject: [loud-fans] oh, come ON Mark on the breadth of experience in which he has somehow not perceived middle class black people as non-anamalous: >> As far as a limited sample set, I base it on my observations of spending extended amounts of time in the Detroit/Flint area, Maryland DC area, << I'm probably going to regret waidng back into this inanity, but, dude, if you didn't see middle-class black people in the Maryland/DC area, you just weren't going to the right parties. Seriously, as bi guy within a day's drive, you didn't check out the Dupont Circle scene once?! The mind boggles. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:16:33 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/31/2008 6:31:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dwalker@freeke.org writes: I'd have to assume then, that your time in Detroit didn't include any time in the Palmer Woods, Indian Village, or New Center neighborhoods, or in the suburbs Southfield, Lathrup Village, or Oak Park, all of which are comprised of majority middle-class black populations. Even if you consider your sample large, I'd argue that it apparently wasn't very granular. Excellent. That's all I wanted. Some real world examples. Thanks, much. When I have time after work tonight, I'll do some web research on these. Most fabulous. - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:45:46 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/31/2008 8:46:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pantone367@gmail.com writes: Flint is also not really near Detroit and I've never heard of anyone putting the two together like they're a metro area or something. And what is an extended amount of time? Six months? A year? Five years? I've been in Detroit for six years myself, and I know lots of black middle class people. Maybe you just didn't get out enough? - --betsy All I wanted were some real world examples, and I have been given more than enough now to look into. I stand informed and corrected and I'm HAPPY about this! I get tired of seeing the same old depressing poverty scenario over and over and over. It really does depress me. I hate to see people in financial need. It grieves me. Without fail, if I go to downtown Greenville to mail a letter at the post office, I am approached by a street person for money. And, without fail, they are always black. I give money to the rescue mission every month a half block away because it really bothers me. I gave them my old TV about a month ago. I give them any type of Goodwill donation I ever have. About 10 years ago I arranged for a Chinese restaurant to give their food to the rescue mission at the end of lunch. They came and picked it up for years, until the restaurant went out of business. They were throwing away unbelievable amounts of food--simply because they were required to by law. When I worked at Domino's ten years ago, we used to throw away like three to nine pizzas a night. I'd take them downtown and give them to people on the street. It wasn't a big deal. It only took me about 15 minutes out of my evening to do this, and the food wasn't wasted. I'm saying this because I'm not trying to brag about doing charitable things. I'm saying this so you know that I mean business. It grieves me to see people in need. I gave a poor (black) kid a belt last year at school because his pants kept falling down, and so I took my web belt I was wearing, cut it short, and gave it to him. I bought another some shoe strings as he didn't have any (also poor and black), and he kept coming out of his shoes. Thanks again for some real world examples. I didn't WANT to be right in my hypotheses. - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:48:37 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/31/2008 2:45:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Markwstaples writes: the rescue mission every month a half block away It's a half a block from the main post office. - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:22:20 -0600 From: "Roger Winston" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 12:48 PM, wrote: >> In a message dated 7/31/2008 2:45:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> Markwstaples writes: >> >> the rescue mission every month a half block away > > It's a half a block from the main post office. Thanks for clearing that up. It was really bugging me. BTW, as long as we're coming clean, I lied a couple of weeks ago about owning a '64 Impala. Sometimes I'll just say any old damn thing to try to make my point. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:20:54 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Mark, I commend you for what you've done about getting restaurant leftovers to people who can use them. It does indeed feel good to be able to help someone in need, but I always feel bad that the need exists in the first place, and that my efforts often just feel like a band-aid, a temporary alleviation of the symptoms. And waste angers and saddens me, any kind of waste, but particularly food waste. I was raised to be very conscious of food waste, and to practice "good stewardship", and it bewilders me that so many people seem to have so little conscience on the issue. Perhaps with the downturn in the economy and the rising prices more people will start to think more about what they buy (and overbuy) and what they throw away, and perhaps restaurants won't produce so much overage because it will cut into their profits. Jen (who just pitted a bowl of cherries and now has fingers and thumbs dyed a lovely shade of dark grape, like some amateur mendhi job gone horribly wrong, and it won't wash off. LOL! Anyone know how to return my skin to a human shade? Should I soak my hands in bleach water? I hate the smell of bleach.) ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V7 #464 *******************************