From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V7 #462 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, July 31 2008 Volume 07 : Number 462 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Markwsta] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [AWeiss43] [loud-fans] looks like we need an odds-maker ["outbound-only email addres] Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) [Markwstaples@ao] Re: [loud-fans] looks like we need an odds-maker [Markwstaples@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) ["Dave Walker" Subject: [loud-fans] looks like we need an odds-maker I foresee 3 outcomes: 1. Mark quits in a huff with a lengthy email about how loud-fans failed to meet his expectations for an online community 2. Mark quits without telling anyone and eventually logs on with a new address to see if people are still talking about him 3. Mark apologizes for most, if not all, of the previous week's worth of email*, possibly with an aside about adjustments to medication recently or at least non-list-related stressors, and things go back to more-or-less normal. At this point I think we're sliding toward #1 or #2 pretty fast. But you know what? I'd prefer option 3. * Back to and including the one that got Dave Walker's dander up ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:14:17 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/29/2008 11:49:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, glarbleflarb@yahoo.com writes: And don't tell me it isn't exceptional to you -- here is a direct quote from an e-mail you sent when you visited L.A. last year: "Where are all the white people?" Yeah, I remember saying and writing that. I was totally perplexed. The first place we stop on the way to Moor Park is outside of LA, in a Wal-Mart that looked like a converted old-timey Sears. I wanted some nicotine gum, STAT. My brother and I were the only people in the Wal-Mart we were in that weren't black or Latino, save for one employee, and this was weird to me. I also remember my brother telling me later, at the Sambo's in Santa Barbara, "Here are all the white people, Mark!" He thought it was funny, and I thought it was extremely ironic. EVERYONE in the place was white. Heck, everyone in the town was. I'm not used to that. I remember interviewing in DeKalb County in Atlanta two years ago. The principal, a black female probably about 60, looked at the photograph of the 5th grade class (a gift, framed, with all their signatures in the border) I taught in my student teaching that I had brought with me to give her an idea of who I taught . She looked it over, and immediately said, "Hmmm. Not very diverse." The class was about 20% black (I've been told African-American isn't correct to use, because of the origin of some people labeled as such not being Africa--fair enough). This was a school that was 99% black. Low-income. Typical scenario I always see. I wanted to say to her, "Lady, THIS school isn't very diverse." But, of course, when one wants a job, one keeps their mouth shut. I have no doubt in my mind that there are middle class black people. I've even delivered to about 5 in my 16 years of delivery. However, like I said, a significant amount? A political force to be reckoned with? Where do they live? What pocket of what city? Tell me, and I'll believe. I know that sounds smartassed, but serously. Where? - --Mark _Science Dictionary:_ (http://www.answers.com/library/Science%20Dictionary-cid-51639) middle class A social and economic _class_ (http://www.answers.com/topic/class) composed of those more prosperous than the poor, or lower class, and less wealthy than the upper class. Middle class is sometimes loosely used to refer to the _bourgeoisie_ (http://www.answers.com/topic/bourgeoisie) . In the United States and other industrial countries, the term is often applied to _white-collar_ (http://www.answers.com/topic/white-collar) , as opposed to _blue-collar_ (http://www.answers.com/topic/blue-collar-worker) , workers. Values commonly associated with the middle class include a desire for social respectability and material wealth and an emphasis on the family and education **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:24:26 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] looks like we need an odds-maker Sorry to disappoint you, but I think my meds are working great, and I don't feel like I have anything to be sorry for. Factor in a number 4. - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:38:35 -0400 From: "Dave Walker" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) > I have no doubt in my mind that there are middle class black people. I've > even delivered to about 5 in my 16 years of delivery. However, like I said, a > significant amount? A political force to be reckoned with? Where do they > live? What pocket of what city? Tell me, and I'll believe. I know that > sounds smartassed, but serously. Where? OMFG, it's not like we're blue whales or something. Keeping in mind that I haven't seen "Passing Strange", I have to think that Stew's railing against precisely this mindset. Sure, "The Cosby Show" was a fairytale, but 99 3/4% of everything on commercial TV is to, so duh. -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:58:38 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: > Where do they > live? What pocket of what city? Tell me, and I'll believe. I know that > sounds smartassed, but serously. Where? > It certainly does sound smart-assed, especially since I already told you one city (unless you've forgotten where I grew up). Try Huntsville, AL for starters, where my dad ministered to a church (as recently as a few years ago) whose congregation was half middle-class and affluent blacks (and half middle-class whites), and where my high school, a large school, had a high percentage of middle class blacks. But I've known middle-class blacks nearly every place I've lived (I don't think I actually knew any black people in Seattle, but I wasn't there all that long). But regardless of numbers, that still does not validate your apparent support of the pretty clearly racist remarks of theatre goers, nor does it explain why any writer of any color should be considered ill-equipped to write about themselves or people of their own station, no matter how rare that station may be. Nor does it explain why you would side with "patrons" who don't value what is apparently a fresh perspective for them over one that just pats their pre-conceived notions on the back. Mark, your town and your life are not a microcosm of the country, and you should know that or take the initiative to learn it; other people should not have to prove it to you here. You should reflect more on the things you say/type, and why, and what their impact might be on others before you hit the "send" key (you have deeply offended Andrea with your so-called humor), and you should really read and think about what others say and what's behind it before you foam at the mouth (I was not out to offend you or hurt your feelings, and you're the one who threw in the Klan metaphor). It's clear that you can't engage in an intellectual argument without taking things personally or using insensitive rhetoric. Not a good trait for an academic. It seems that what's sauce for the goose isn't sauce for the gander in your world. Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. I have better things to do with my day than put up verbal umbrellas against bluster. Hubby's going out of town overnight and I'm gonna hit this house like a white tornado (since it looks like the regular kind already did). West, dude, send some chicharrones over here, bro! Jen "They'd need someone to climb a tree. Someone stupid enough to climb a tree. I may be stupid, but I'm fat. Fat people fall faster than skinny people, it's a known fact. Mass divided by height times volume equals a big splat, dude!" (overheard at the swimming beach at Beech Fork Lake yesterday, in reference to a rope swing on the opposite bank) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:18:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Pete O." Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) - --- Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/29/2008 11:49:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > glarbleflarb@yahoo.com writes: > > And don't tell me it > isn't exceptional to you -- here is a direct quote from an e-mail you > sent when you visited L.A. last year: > > "Where are all the white people?" > > Isn't that just a quote from "Blazing Saddles"? ====== No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed.  H.J.S. ====== ===== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:55:58 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/30/08 12:47:54 PM, dwalker@freeke.org writes: > Keeping in mind that I haven't seen "Passing Strange", I have to think > that Stew's railing against precisely this mindset. > There's a scene where young Stew benefits from German artists rushing to believe that he hustled for dimes on the mean streets of South Central. The older narrator Stew interrupts with a quick aside about the all-black cast: "Nobody in this play knows what it's like to hustle for dimes on the mean streets of South Central." ************** Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:19:10 -0400 From: "Michael Bowen" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 3:55 PM, wrote: > > There's a scene where young Stew benefits from German artists rushing to > believe that he hustled for dimes on the mean streets of South Central. The > older > narrator Stew interrupts with a quick aside about the all-black cast: "Nobody > in this play knows what it's like to hustle for dimes on the mean streets of > South Central." > the naked dutch painter in the kitchen does not want to fuck you she's got seventeen boyfriends and an eight o'clock class to get to she's smoking hash all night with some coffee amaretto she's asking stupid questions 'bout my groovy black ghetto... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:58:48 -0400 From: Stu Bell Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) A baby's arm holding an apple! On 30-Jul-08, at 4:19 PM, Michael Bowen wrote: > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 3:55 PM, wrote: > >> >> There's a scene where young Stew benefits from German artists >> rushing to >> believe that he hustled for dimes on the mean streets of South >> Central. The >> older >> narrator Stew interrupts with a quick aside about the all-black >> cast: "Nobody >> in this play knows what it's like to hustle for dimes on the mean >> streets of >> South Central." >> > > the naked dutch painter in the kitchen does not want to fuck you > she's got seventeen boyfriends > and an eight o'clock class to get to > she's smoking hash all night > with some coffee amaretto > she's asking stupid questions 'bout my groovy black ghetto... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please consider the environment before printing this email - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by return email and delete this message from your system. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:17:12 -0700 From: PunkRok Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Sorry to jump in so late folks, but I have two cents to share . . . West, I totally am with you. I grew up in northern Arizona, where my folks were born and raised. Both my parents are first generation born in the US and they grew up in a time when they were smacked across the hands with a ruler for speaking spanish. My father often recalls how as a child, he was segregated to the back of the classroom and was often placed in the D class (good students were in the A class, and got the best teachers, so you can assume what D class means . . .) So, they made it a point to not ever speak spanish in front of myself or my older brother, in an attempt to assimilate us into "anglo" society. However, growing up amongst a predominately mormon population, the language issue was nearly irrelevant, because no matter what we did, we were outsiders. To the white kids, we were too mexican. To the mexicans, we were too white. So I grew up with the only friends in my life being John, Paul, George and Ringo, some dude named Lindsey and a chick named Stevie, and this freaky dude named Iggy and his buddy David, sometimes called Ziggy. My folks still cooked traditional meals and we still roasted a pig in our backyard with my 45 first cousins gathering from all corners of Arizona, looking for easter eggs after mass, but dammit - we could speak english! :) And as we got older, we did (and still do) family vacations at my uncle's cabin, and we toss around a football and the cousins that can make it sit around and talk about what Mark calls "bourgeois" topics - politics, education, what car they want to purchase, how to discipline their kids, whatever. We play scrabble and we allow spellings in both english, spanish AND spanglish. We gather around an old upright piano, my brother plays his guitar and we sing songs we learned in Girl/Boy Scouts. This summer, we added Rock Band competitions to it all and it was hilarious! We support my cousin Danny, who just got out of 28 years in prison, and we support my cousin Brian, who has been named the Executive Director of an awesome nonprofit and is publishing a book at the end of the year. Some may call it unrealistic, how much of my life has been lived as if it were a movie (or a PBS series called American Family . . .ha ha) but it is a life I am incredibly fond of. My parents often feel badly that they have (their words, not mine) sold their language out in hopes of helping their children be successful. It is only now, when my father sees the social injustice of things like proposition 200 (here in AZ) and how much help my brother and I could be to "the cause" (as he calls it) that he realizes how much more helpful us knowing Spanish would have been. And our "bourgeois" existence has non blood related people self-identifying into our family. My best friend treats my parents as her own, and her children are my parent's grandkids. My husband took my surname when we married, because he saw in my father the type of man he wanted to be - and my husband is white as white can be. He didn't see my father as a good mexican man, he saw him as a strong, ethical father figure that has lived a humble life and lead our family, quietly, into a middle class existence without us ever even knowing. Friends, upon first hearing some of my wacky family stories, usually think I am lying. And then, inevitably, they ask to accompany me on a trip to my hometown, where they discover the truth is much crazier than anything I could have made up. My mom's wall of rosarys, her santos in the backyard, and my personal favorite, her light up LED Virgin Mary are just a few of the things I have been accused of leaving out of the stories - and maybe it is because those tacky pieces of religious memorabilia would paint a different picture, but more likely it is because they are such an everyday thing, I just don't notice them anymore. * sigh * sorry for the long tangent. Maybe it is adding to the convo, maybe it is taking away (maybe it is just an opportunity for me to have diahhrea of the mouth and masturbate my ego a bit) - but more than anything I hope it exemplifies that folks on this board come from different walks of life and that yes, more thought should be put into an email before hitting send. My hubby says that is the problem with email - it is immediate, so we rarely think further than our own words before we send. Mark, I would just recommend that you consider that those of us on the other end actually are not faceless - we are people, and while witty comments may seem like a good idea at the time, sometimes witty comments are nothing more than hurtful, tasteless grasps at stereotypical forms of stereotyping sterotypes :p Just my two cents . . . PunkGirl and West, chicharrones are a-ok, according to Dr. Atkins (my new best friend). As for speaking English better than some anglo folks - I have a funny story about that to share one day, but suffice it to say I have an English degree and graduated cum laude. I have a great interview story about that . . . On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Stu Bell wrote: > A baby's arm holding an apple! > > On 30-Jul-08, at 4:19 PM, Michael Bowen wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 3:55 PM, wrote: >> >> >>> There's a scene where young Stew benefits from German artists rushing to >>> believe that he hustled for dimes on the mean streets of South Central. >>> The >>> older >>> narrator Stew interrupts with a quick aside about the all-black cast: >>> "Nobody >>> in this play knows what it's like to hustle for dimes on the mean streets >>> of >>> South Central." >>> >>> >> the naked dutch painter in the kitchen does not want to fuck you >> she's got seventeen boyfriends >> and an eight o'clock class to get to >> she's smoking hash all night >> with some coffee amaretto >> she's asking stupid questions 'bout my groovy black ghetto... >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Please consider the environment before printing this email > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entityto > which it is addressed, and may contain information that isprivileged, > confidential and/or exempt from disclosure underapplicable law. If the > reader of this is not the intended recipient,or the employee or agent > responsible for delivering the message to theintended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any dissemination,distribution or copying of this > communication is strictly prohibited.If you have received this communication > in error, please notify meimmediately by return email and delete this > message from your system.Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:29:56 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) >> "Where are all the white people?" >> >> > > Isn't that just a quote from "Blazing Saddles"? I believe the correct quote is "Hey where the white women at?" Uttered by Cleavon Little just after being unmasked as an ersatz Klansman, Andy The Top 20 Albums of All Time (For Real) Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:21pm PDT by Robert of the Radish in The Y! Music Playlist Blog I completely understand the frustration of "best of lists", and I can assure you that I read hundreds of comments here on the Yahoo Music blogs whenever we post one. Many times our "best album" lists generate thousands of comments. And although many of the remarks are ridiculous, many are valid in a subjective sort of way. For this playlist I wanted to find the true top 20 albums once and for all, but to do this I needed to clear my mind of all opinion and approach it as a science. My own personal taste did not influence this list in any way. In fact, I would have made many different choices, but the time I put into collecting the data and crunching the numbers leaves no doubt in my mind that this is the most accurate top 20 album list in existence. To begin with I had to set the parameters, and I have set them as follows: 1. The list is based on the American market - I did this only because I had mounds of detailed data on the American music market at hand- to include the whole world or even Europe would increase the complexity of the analysis greatly - So this is really the "Top 20 Albums of All Time (To Americans)" 2. "Greatest Hits" albums and live albums were not eligible. The idea here was to identify the very best true albums, not compilations that cherry pick the best songs from an artist's career. 3. The following mathematical formula was used: "Album Staying Power Value + Sales Value + Critical Rating Value + Grammy Award Value" Now if you wish to argue, I welcome intelligent comment on how to hone the formula further, but please try to control the passionate fan-speak that drives so many of the comments. Remember, the idea is to completely remove your personal opinion from the process. [--from Robert of the Radish [sic]'s discursion on the Top 20 Albums of All Time, at http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/yradish/15499/the-top-20-albums-of-all-time-for-real ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:01:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Wow. I congratulate Stew and it tuned into this! Two things that I'm intrigued by, though - JRT mentioned those comments he's been hearing regarding the whole race issue. Obviously the rantings of elitist liberal left-wingers, but I want to know more about those comments. Who's making them? Please JR, tell us more details! The other thing I really want to know is this - are Stew and Heidi lovers? Gil - --- Andrew Hamlin wrote: > >> "Where are all the white people?" > >> > >> > > > > Isn't that just a quote from "Blazing Saddles"? > > I believe the correct quote is "Hey where the white > women at?" > > Uttered by Cleavon Little just after being unmasked > as an ersatz Klansman, > > Andy > > > The Top 20 Albums of All Time (For Real) > Posted Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:21pm PDT by Robert of the > Radish in The Y! > Music Playlist Blog > > I completely understand the frustration of "best of > lists", and I can > assure you that I read hundreds of comments here on > the Yahoo Music > blogs whenever we post one. Many times our "best > album" lists generate > thousands of comments. And although many of the > remarks are > ridiculous, many are valid in a subjective sort of > way. > > For this playlist I wanted to find the true top 20 > albums once and for > all, but to do this I needed to clear my mind of all > opinion and > approach it as a science. My own personal taste did > not influence this > list in any way. In fact, I would have made many > different choices, > but the time I put into collecting the data and > crunching the numbers > leaves no doubt in my mind that this is the most > accurate top 20 album > list in existence. > > To begin with I had to set the parameters, and I > have set them as follows: > > 1. The list is based on the American market - I did > this only because > I had mounds of detailed data on the American music > market at hand- to > include the whole world or even Europe would > increase the complexity > of the analysis greatly - So this is really the "Top > 20 Albums of All > Time (To Americans)" > > 2. "Greatest Hits" albums and live albums were not > eligible. The idea > here was to identify the very best true albums, not > compilations that > cherry pick the best songs from an artist's career. > > 3. The following mathematical formula was used: > > "Album Staying Power Value + Sales Value + Critical > Rating Value + > Grammy Award Value" > > Now if you wish to argue, I welcome intelligent > comment on how to hone > the formula further, but please try to control the > passionate > fan-speak that drives so many of the comments. > Remember, the idea is > to completely remove your personal opinion from the > process. > > [--from Robert of the Radish [sic]'s discursion on > the Top 20 Albums > of All Time, at > http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/yradish/15499/the-top-20-albums-of-all-time-for-real > ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:31:50 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[loud-fans]=20The=20Middle=20Class...=20In =20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Color=20(Or,=20What=20Can=A0=20Brown=20Do=20For=20You)? = In a message dated 7/30/08 9:32:02 PM, ggilray@yahoo.com writes: > The other thing I really want to know is this - are > Stew and Heidi lovers? > As Stew often said as the show hit Broadway, their romance survived years of rock 'n roll, but quickly folded under the strain of theater. Thankfully, amicably. As for the PASSING STRANGE comments, I'll generalize in rounding up the variants of elitist liberal left-wingers. The gay ones of all ages were quick with the dismissive RENT comparisons. (One hint of bisexual antics wasn't enough to win Stew over with that crowd.) The older intellectuals would most often question the worth of the show as a typical middle-class journey, usually citing missed potential at examining race issues. Younger ones dismissed the musical as a rock fantasy, and that would include jibes at the black fantasy of middle-class existence. All those opinions include a smattering of Europeans, but I never heard a foreigner express how the play included a stereotype of how blacks view Europe. That was left (fairly often) to my fellow Americans. ************** Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:58:55 -0700 From: "Steve Holtebeck" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) On 7/30/08, Gil Ray wrote: > Wow. I congratulate Stew and it tuned into this! > > Two things that I'm intrigued by, though - > > JRT mentioned those comments he's been hearing > regarding the whole race issue. Mainly for the purpose of ridiculing them, I thought. > The other thing I really want to know is this - are > Stew and Heidi lovers? When the show opened on Broadway, one writeup called them "professional (and erstwhile personal) partners" , which I think makes them "ex-lovers". - -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:06:21 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/30/2008 1:15:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sleeveless@zoominternet.net writes: Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. Good! Jenny, I think you've blown this whole thing completely out of proportion. I really wish I could say I was sorry, if it makes you and Andrea or anyone else feel better, but it wouldn't be true. I'm just not understanding how you can dismiss these people, who paid to see this show, and call them all idiots because they don't share your views, making real assumptions about the intellect and racial views of these faceless, nameless beings whom I know nothing of as far as demographically--from one opinion made repeatedly that you don't like? I'm personally going to take these opinions with weight for two reasons 1) they are consistent, and 2) they paid to see the damned thing. And, I hate to say it, but you haven't, so, I'm going to take their views about the show with more weight than yours (or anyone else who hasn't seen it, for that matter). People can write about anything they damned well please. It doesn't mean it's good, and that I have to see it and spend my money on it. That's why I like to take in the opinions of those who have seen a movie, or bought a CD. I do that a lot on here, you know. If the author is speaking authentically from his upbringing, fantastic, Jen. I was thinking that he wasn't, if it comes off as not authentic to a significant amount of viewers. I don't know. I haven't seen it for myself. I don't know the author's background. I was taught in creative writing to write about what you know, else you run the risk of coming off as not genuine. So, when these viewers say "not genuine," I'm going to think what I think. And I think the middle class experience in America is predominantly white, bad man that I am. Read A FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING POVERTY. Ruby Payne is not an idiot. She is an expert on class in America. I make no apologies for my observations on the very low amount of middle class black people in the south or in any of my travels. It's an observation, and it is what it is. Along the same lines, a lot of people think they are middle class, when by definition they really aren't, be they white, yellow, brown or magenta. But, in reality, I really don't give a flying f___ outside of the classroom. It makes a difference there. Children from different classes learn differently and have different needs academically. Andrea, I'm scratching my head. Jenny pretty much grilled me, and I responded the way I did. I chose the word "darkie" and "retard" carefully. They were exactly the words I wanted. If I'm going to be painted in some grotesque light as racist and insensitive (how I percieved it), then I'm going to play it up for all it's worth in my anger (because Mr. Sweet here can get pissed off just like you), and I'm going to use insensitive rhetoric, for two reasons: 1) it on the surface reinforces the perspective of me being a racist pig, when in reality it shows the ridiculousness of the allegation, and 2) it takes the power away from the words. I was a Communications major in college. A professor told me that black people use the word "nigger" with each other because it takes the power away from it. I think that's brilliant. Peace, out. The faggot-assed freak **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:48:14 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) I'm going to preface my comments with an observation that you can take or leave: I'm coming up on 20 years as a black guy on the Internet, and I can still count the number of subtle, nuanced, and insightful discussions of race I've seen online on one hand, with enough fingers left over to make both intimate friends and enemies in NYC on a Saturday night. Mailing lists are a great medium for so many discussions, but they fail out loud on this one. On Jul 31, 2008, at 12:06 AM, Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: > And I think the middle class experience in > America is predominantly white, bad man that I am. Read A > FRAMEWORK FOR > UNDERSTANDING POVERTY. Ruby Payne is not an idiot. She is an > expert on class in > America. Ruby Payne may be the most insightful sociologist in America (I wouldn't know, I haven't read her), but nothing she says invalidates the experiences of someone living a life that doesn't fit her thesis. > I make no apologies for my observations on the very low amount of > middle > class black people in the south or in any of my travels. It's an > observation, > and it is what it is. I'll only observe here that I think you're extrapolating quite a bit from a very limited sample set. > A professor told me that black people use the word "nigger" with > each other > because it takes the power away from it. I think that's brilliant. Lots of black people use "nigger" the same way white people use "fuck" - -- as punctuation. Whatever. I would only add that if you're white and decide to punctuate your speech with it, be very careful with your grammar. :) > The faggot-assed freak Hey some of my best friends are... anyway. -d.w. fear of a middle-class black planet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:20:44 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) In a message dated 7/31/2008 12:08:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Markwstaples@aol.com writes: Andrea, I'm scratching my head. Jenny pretty much grilled me, and I responded the way I did. I chose the word "darkie" and "retard" carefully. They were exactly the words I wanted. If I'm going to be painted in some grotesque light as racist and insensitive (how I percieved it), then I'm going to play it up for all it's worth in my anger (because Mr. Sweet here can get pissed off just like you), and I'm going to use insensitive rhetoric, for two reasons: 1) it on the surface reinforces the perspective of me being a racist pig, when in reality it shows the ridiculousness of the allegation, and 2) it takes the power away from the words. I was a Communications major in college. A professor told me that black people use the word "nigger" with each other because it takes the power away from it. I think that's brilliant. And if you really, honestly believe all of this, then our friendship is at an end. I can't be friends with someone who uses slurs, no matter what the context is. And I say this calmly and firmly. Andrea **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. 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