From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V7 #461 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, July 30 2008 Volume 07 : Number 461 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Markwsta] [loud-fans] SoCal [treesprite@earthlink.net] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Jenny Gr] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [JRT456@a] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Markwsta] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Jenny Gr] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud ["Joseph ] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Jenny Gr] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [Markwsta] Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud [AWeiss43] [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) [West Anthony Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/29/2008 12:37:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > JRT456@aol.com writes: > > mostly variations on how a black > playwright just can't capture the middle-class experience. > > Maybe it's kind of like PORGY AND BESS. I was a white man who lived in > downtown Charleston for years, but I don't think I'm qualified to write of the > poor black Charleston experience and write a book about it No, but are you not qualified to write of your experiences as a white man living amongst poor blacks? But that's beside the point. JRT didn't relate the theatre idiots saying "a black playwright just can't capture the WHITE middle-class experience", now, did he? The musical's protagonist is black. Are you (like the theatre idiots) saying you don't think there are middle class blacks? Or that being black and middle class isn't valid, or a valid thing to write about, that middle-classitude should be left to white writers? Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone who might know, but I was under the impression that Passing Strange was at least partially autobiographical. Granted, I haven't seen the play, but listening to the music, it doesn't sound forced or like it's trying to relate something that Stew hasn't lived in some way, either literally or emotionally. Never mind that I'm trying to figure out what *the* middle-class experience is, like there's just one. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:42:49 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud In a message dated 7/29/08 2:12:28 PM, sleeveless@zoominternet.net writes: > Never mind that I'm trying to figure out what *the* middle-class > experience is, like there's just one. > If it's any clarification, a typical attitude from the audience was that PASSING STRANGE failed because either blacks can't capture a middle-class coming-of-age story, or there was no need for a black voice addressing the middle-class experience. Combine the two for the second most common reaction, close behind a dismissive, "Well, it's the black RENT." ************** Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:50:26 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud In a message dated 7/29/2008 2:12:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sleeveless@zoominternet.net writes: Are you (like the theatre idiots) saying you don't think there are middle class blacks? Or that being black and middle class isn't valid, or a valid thing to write about, that middle-classitude should be left to white writers? Of course there are middle class black people! Are there a substantial amount? I can only speak for where I live. No. The majority here are in poverty or working class. I know I'm right from the demographic breakdown of the students at the schools I've subbed at all over the district, as well as at my own now, and the customers I've delivered to at the restaurants I've worked at all over the county for the past 16 years. Same demographic with the schools I interviewed for in metro Atlanta a couple of years ago. Almost all the kids in the Title 1 schools are black, and nearly all that get free and reduced lunch are black. I took what JRT wrote as exactly what you are saying--the middle class experience being white, because, at least from where I live, the middle class is mostly white, and, according to a book I read recently, A FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING POVERTY, by Ruby Payne--the middle class in America is rapidly disappearing, anyway. (It's without a doubt the best, most eye-opening book I've ever read in education). I think the protagonist in that show is seeking out "the real." Good Lord, before you fit me for that Klan Grand Dragon outfit, I'm just saying that I think there's some validity to what the theater goers are saying. It sounds like it's not coming off as real to them, and if it is a repeated complaint, then hey, take some stock. Those "idiots" are the middle and upper classes who have the education and therefore (usually) the disposable income and the interest in seeing the show. On a related note I felt like THE COSBY SHOW wasn't realistic. But, what really was in the '80s? THIRTY SOMETHING? Yeah, right. And, I think I already made my thoughts known on the list about Bill Cosby's character being so mean to Theo from my vantage point. If I were that kid I would've run away. The fact that Cosby acted that way as a father with a degree (minor) in child psychology is simply amazing to me. Jen, you is my enemy now? - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:59:54 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud JRT456@aol.com wrote: > If it's any clarification, a typical attitude from the audience was that > PASSING STRANGE failed because either blacks can't capture a middle-class > coming-of-age story, or there was no need for a black voice addressing the > middle-class experience. Yet there's a need for, say, Xanadu?? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, JRT456@aol.com wrote: > If it's any clarification, a typical attitude from the audience was that > PASSING STRANGE failed because either blacks can't capture a middle-class > coming-of-age story, or there was no need for a black voice addressing the > middle-class experience. Combine the two for the second most common reaction, close > behind a dismissive, "Well, it's the black RENT." I thought the hero was aimless, acting in dramatically non-consistent ways for no discernable reason. This was the Berkeley Rep version, and the music was good and the supporting cast excellent, though. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:40:18 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: > > Of course there are middle class black people! Are there a substantial > amount? I can only speak for where I live. No. The majority here are in > poverty or working class. I went to a mostly middle class public high school. We didn't need to bus anyone in to meet quotas. In fact, I grew up wondering why they called black people a minority. Most black people I've known have been middle class (and yes, I have known quite a few). So, it doesn't seem at all odd or rare to me to hear black middle class voices, but it does seem odd to me that other people would think it was. That just smacks of ignorance to me, whether said people have some sort of sheepskin on their walls or not. I know it's not the case everywhere, but no demographics are the case everywhere. And what if it is/was a rare thing to hear art from a middle class black voice? That should make it all the more interesting and should make listeners/viewers/readers more accepting of anything they perceive as different from their own experience. > Almost all the > kids in the Title 1 schools are black, and nearly all that get free and > reduced lunch are black. What's a Title 1 school? I'm not familiar with that term. > and, according to a book I read recently, > A FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING POVERTY, by Ruby Payne--the middle class in > America is rapidly disappearing, anyway. Which has little, if anything, to do with someone writing about a middle class past, except it might make some people nostalgic. > Good Lord, before you fit me for that Klan Grand Dragon outfit, I'm just saying that I > think there's some validity to what the theater goers are saying. Which is exactly why I'm starching your hood. > It sounds > like it's not coming off as real to them, and if it is a repeated complaint, > then hey, take some stock. And why might it not come off as "real" to them? Because they have their own little view of what constitutes the middle class experience, and it doesn't include black voices? Or they think black writers present in an inferior way? Or they choose to express it that way because something a black writer says makes them squirm? (I can see Stew making people squirm). Or they just ain't got no soul, so it doesn't get through to them? Mind you, I have not toured Europe, much less come of age partly there, but the songs come off as real to me, sometimes startlingly honestly so. > Those "idiots" are the middle and upper classes > who have the education and therefore (usually) the disposable income and the > interest in seeing the show. First of all, some people inherit money or marry into it, regardless of if they get an education or not. So, money does not necessarily equal education, and education certainly does not necessarily equal enlightenment. My experience is that many of the worst racists I've known were older rich white women. And there are plenty of people with a piece of paper who just don't get it concerning a great many things. If most people, including educated, middle and upper class ones, don't think Scott Miller is a brilliant songwriter, does that mean we should start listening to them, that they have a point? What do the people you went to college with listen to these days? Is it, in general, stuff you think is brilliant, or even particularly worthy? > > On a related note I felt like THE COSBY SHOW wasn't realistic. But, what > really was in the '80s? What sitcom of any era or any race of people is or has been?? > Jen, you is my enemy now? I is the enemy of narrow-mindedness. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:15:53 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud In a message dated 7/29/2008 8:53:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sleeveless@zoominternet.net writes: Which is exactly why I'm starching your hood. Light please, so my elitist white pores on my pig head can breathe in this humidity, and make sure it's nice n' pointy, to scare the darkies more. Well, gotta go. Cow tipping time! - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:38:47 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud In a message dated 7/29/2008 9:19:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Markwstaples@aol.com writes: Light please, so my elitist white pores on my pig head can breathe in this humidity, and make sure it's nice n' pointy, to scare the darkies more. Mark that's not funny, that slur. That's wrong!! Andrea **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:41:07 -0700 From: West Anthony Subject: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Heated discussion, this. For my own two cents' worth, I still get funny looks now and then when people realize that I'm a Mexican. Apart from not fitting any of the visual stereotypes, my speaking voice, which hasn't a trace of an accent, and my vocabulary, which is above average, throws a lot of people off, I guess. (Many times in the past have I submitted some paperwork or other that required identifying my racial heritage, and when it was casually scanned by the clerk behind the counter, many times have I heard the words "You speak English very well!" Only once, however, have I replied "Madam, I speak English better than any white people you know." I didn't get that job.) I came of age in Garden Grove, a city smack in the middle of Orange County, California (the kind of town where anything can happen... and usually doesn't); with Disneyland quite literally in my backyard, I believe I have had about as suburban middle-class an upbringing as anyone, regardless of race. It does happen. But race is definitely something that some white people always take into account in a negative way, and there are always people who carry a certain amount of baggage and assumptions with them in their dealings with "minorities", although not in a necessarily negative way. But I gotta tell ya, folks, that sword cuts both ways: if there's one thing racists can't stand more than a Mexican who can't speak English, it's a Mexican who speaks English better than they do. (It just fucks with their whole universe.) Conversely, if there's one thing some Mexicans can't stand more than a Mexican who speaks perfect English, it's a Mexican who -- like me -- can't speak Spanish. THEY think I'm being uppity, denying my heritage. But although I'm well aware of my HISTORICAL heritage, my PERSONAL heritage is American Suburbia through and through. So, although I am very concerned about the fate of illegal immigrants, and have spoken on their behalf (and will do so again), that doesn't mean I'm going to put the Mexican flag (mother's side) or the Honduran flag (father's side) on the bumper of my truck, or become an aficionado of Ranchero music (which, to my ears, really is godawful), or eat chicharrones every day. (Okay, I WOULD eat chicharrones every day, if they weren't so damn bad for me. If you're ever in the San Fernando Valley, Carrillo's on Sherman Way has the best chicharrones on Earth... no fooling, gang, you can buy 'em by the pound!) When you aren't white in America, race is something you get hit in the face with in one way or another pretty much every day of your life; conversely, I'm sure there are plenty of white people who feel like they're getting hit in the face with other people's races every day as well, and yearn for that simpler time when they didn't have to treat minorities like real people. Mark, those days are over. I agree with Jen that your remarks were made in ignorance, but -- and I'm sure Jen will agree with me on this - -- that doesn't mean your remarks were made with malice, or that they make you a racist. But you should really check those notions of how the rest of us live. There may not be a lot of black people living the middle-class lifestyle where you are, but they're in America right now. Minorities are all over the place, living relatively comfortable lives, and it shouldn't be exceptional to you. And don't tell me it isn't exceptional to you -- here is a direct quote from an e-mail you sent when you visited L.A. last year: "Where are all the white people?" We may not be the same color, but we all want the same things... a nice place to live... a good job... a car in the driveway... a chicken in the pot... Of course, if you're one of MY people, sometimes you have a car AND a chicken in the driveway. (Hey, I get to make those jokes. And as it happens, I once lived next door to a Mexican family who kept chickens that mostly stayed in their own yard. Mostly.) I've heard the soundtrack to "Passing Strange", being a big Stew fan, and I love it; it's exciting and fun, and another take on a universal experience -- becoming who you are -- done in a unique way. Now that Spike Lee has filmed a couple of performances, I hope we'll all have the opportunity to see it sometime soon. Son of a bitch. Now I have a craving for chicharrones. I'll probably hate myself in the morning.... West On Jul 29, 2008, at 5:40 PM, Jenny Grover wrote: > Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: >> Of course there are middle class black people! Are there a >> substantial amount? I can only speak for where I live. No. The >> majority here are in poverty or working class. > > I went to a mostly middle class public high school. We didn't need > to bus anyone in to meet quotas. In fact, I grew up wondering why > they called black people a minority. Most black people I've known > have been middle class (and yes, I have known quite a few). So, it > doesn't seem at all odd or rare to me to hear black middle class > voices, but it does seem odd to me that other people would think it > was. That just smacks of ignorance to me, whether said people have > some sort of sheepskin on their walls or not. I know it's not the > case everywhere, but no demographics are the case everywhere. And > what if it is/was a rare thing to hear art from a middle class black > voice? That should make it all the more interesting and should make > listeners/viewers/readers more accepting of anything they perceive > as different from their own experience. > > >> Almost all the kids in the Title 1 schools are black, and nearly >> all that get free and reduced lunch are black. > > What's a Title 1 school? I'm not familiar with that term. > >> and, according to a book I read recently, A FRAMEWORK FOR >> UNDERSTANDING POVERTY, by Ruby Payne--the middle class in America >> is rapidly disappearing, anyway. > > Which has little, if anything, to do with someone writing about a > middle class past, except it might make some people nostalgic. > >> Good Lord, before you fit me for that Klan Grand Dragon outfit, >> I'm just saying that I think there's some validity to what the >> theater goers are saying. > > Which is exactly why I'm starching your hood. >> It sounds like it's not coming off as real to them, and if it is >> a repeated complaint, then hey, take some stock. > > And why might it not come off as "real" to them? Because they have > their own little view of what constitutes the middle class > experience, and it doesn't include black voices? Or they think > black writers present in an inferior way? Or they choose to express > it that way because something a black writer says makes them > squirm? (I can see Stew making people squirm). Or they just ain't > got no soul, so it doesn't get through to them? > Mind you, I have not toured Europe, much less come of age partly > there, but the songs come off as real to me, sometimes startlingly > honestly so. > >> Those "idiots" are the middle and upper classes who have the >> education and therefore (usually) the disposable income and the >> interest in seeing the show. > > First of all, some people inherit money or marry into it, regardless > of if they get an education or not. So, money does not necessarily > equal education, and education certainly does not necessarily equal > enlightenment. My experience is that many of the worst racists I've > known were older rich white women. And there are plenty of people > with a piece of paper who just don't get it concerning a great many > things. If most people, including educated, middle and upper class > ones, don't think Scott Miller is a brilliant songwriter, does that > mean we should start listening to them, that they have a point? > What do the people you went to college with listen to these days? > Is it, in general, stuff you think is brilliant, or even > particularly worthy? >> On a related note I felt like THE COSBY SHOW wasn't realistic. >> But, what really was in the '80s? > > What sitcom of any era or any race of people is or has been?? >> Jen, you is my enemy now? > > I is the enemy of narrow-mindedness. > Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:41:07 -0700 From: West Anthony Subject: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) Heated discussion, this. For my own two cents' worth, I still get funny looks now and then when people realize that I'm a Mexican. Apart from not fitting any of the visual stereotypes, my speaking voice, which hasn't a trace of an accent, and my vocabulary, which is above average, throws a lot of people off, I guess. (Many times in the past have I submitted some paperwork or other that required identifying my racial heritage, and when it was casually scanned by the clerk behind the counter, many times have I heard the words "You speak English very well!" Only once, however, have I replied "Madam, I speak English better than any white people you know." I didn't get that job.) I came of age in Garden Grove, a city smack in the middle of Orange County, California (the kind of town where anything can happen... and usually doesn't); with Disneyland quite literally in my backyard, I believe I have had about as suburban middle-class an upbringing as anyone, regardless of race. It does happen. But race is definitely something that some white people always take into account in a negative way, and there are always people who carry a certain amount of baggage and assumptions with them in their dealings with "minorities", although not in a necessarily negative way. But I gotta tell ya, folks, that sword cuts both ways: if there's one thing racists can't stand more than a Mexican who can't speak English, it's a Mexican who speaks English better than they do. (It just fucks with their whole universe.) Conversely, if there's one thing some Mexicans can't stand more than a Mexican who speaks perfect English, it's a Mexican who -- like me -- can't speak Spanish. THEY think I'm being uppity, denying my heritage. But although I'm well aware of my HISTORICAL heritage, my PERSONAL heritage is American Suburbia through and through. So, although I am very concerned about the fate of illegal immigrants, and have spoken on their behalf (and will do so again), that doesn't mean I'm going to put the Mexican flag (mother's side) or the Honduran flag (father's side) on the bumper of my truck, or become an aficionado of Ranchero music (which, to my ears, really is godawful), or eat chicharrones every day. (Okay, I WOULD eat chicharrones every day, if they weren't so damn bad for me. If you're ever in the San Fernando Valley, Carrillo's on Sherman Way has the best chicharrones on Earth... no fooling, gang, you can buy 'em by the pound!) When you aren't white in America, race is something you get hit in the face with in one way or another pretty much every day of your life; conversely, I'm sure there are plenty of white people who feel like they're getting hit in the face with other people's races every day as well, and yearn for that simpler time when they didn't have to treat minorities like real people. Mark, those days are over. I agree with Jen that your remarks were made in ignorance, but -- and I'm sure Jen will agree with me on this - -- that doesn't mean your remarks were made with malice, or that they make you a racist. But you should really check those notions of how the rest of us live. There may not be a lot of black people living the middle-class lifestyle where you are, but they're in America right now. Minorities are all over the place, living relatively comfortable lives, and it shouldn't be exceptional to you. And don't tell me it isn't exceptional to you -- here is a direct quote from an e-mail you sent when you visited L.A. last year: "Where are all the white people?" We may not be the same color, but we all want the same things... a nice place to live... a good job... a car in the driveway... a chicken in the pot... Of course, if you're one of MY people, sometimes you have a car AND a chicken in the driveway. (Hey, I get to make those jokes. And as it happens, I once lived next door to a Mexican family who kept chickens that mostly stayed in their own yard. Mostly.) I've heard the soundtrack to "Passing Strange", being a big Stew fan, and I love it; it's exciting and fun, and another take on a universal experience -- becoming who you are -- done in a unique way. Now that Spike Lee has filmed a couple of performances, I hope we'll all have the opportunity to see it sometime soon. Son of a bitch. Now I have a craving for chicharrones. I'll probably hate myself in the morning.... West On Jul 29, 2008, at 5:40 PM, Jenny Grover wrote: > Markwstaples@aol.com wrote: >> Of course there are middle class black people! Are there a >> substantial amount? I can only speak for where I live. No. The >> majority here are in poverty or working class. > > I went to a mostly middle class public high school. We didn't need > to bus anyone in to meet quotas. In fact, I grew up wondering why > they called black people a minority. Most black people I've known > have been middle class (and yes, I have known quite a few). So, it > doesn't seem at all odd or rare to me to hear black middle class > voices, but it does seem odd to me that other people would think it > was. That just smacks of ignorance to me, whether said people have > some sort of sheepskin on their walls or not. I know it's not the > case everywhere, but no demographics are the case everywhere. And > what if it is/was a rare thing to hear art from a middle class black > voice? That should make it all the more interesting and should make > listeners/viewers/readers more accepting of anything they perceive > as different from their own experience. > > >> Almost all the kids in the Title 1 schools are black, and nearly >> all that get free and reduced lunch are black. > > What's a Title 1 school? I'm not familiar with that term. > >> and, according to a book I read recently, A FRAMEWORK FOR >> UNDERSTANDING POVERTY, by Ruby Payne--the middle class in America >> is rapidly disappearing, anyway. > > Which has little, if anything, to do with someone writing about a > middle class past, except it might make some people nostalgic. > >> Good Lord, before you fit me for that Klan Grand Dragon outfit, >> I'm just saying that I think there's some validity to what the >> theater goers are saying. > > Which is exactly why I'm starching your hood. >> It sounds like it's not coming off as real to them, and if it is >> a repeated complaint, then hey, take some stock. > > And why might it not come off as "real" to them? Because they have > their own little view of what constitutes the middle class > experience, and it doesn't include black voices? Or they think > black writers present in an inferior way? Or they choose to express > it that way because something a black writer says makes them > squirm? (I can see Stew making people squirm). Or they just ain't > got no soul, so it doesn't get through to them? > Mind you, I have not toured Europe, much less come of age partly > there, but the songs come off as real to me, sometimes startlingly > honestly so. > >> Those "idiots" are the middle and upper classes who have the >> education and therefore (usually) the disposable income and the >> interest in seeing the show. > > First of all, some people inherit money or marry into it, regardless > of if they get an education or not. So, money does not necessarily > equal education, and education certainly does not necessarily equal > enlightenment. My experience is that many of the worst racists I've > known were older rich white women. And there are plenty of people > with a piece of paper who just don't get it concerning a great many > things. If most people, including educated, middle and upper class > ones, don't think Scott Miller is a brilliant songwriter, does that > mean we should start listening to them, that they have a point? > What do the people you went to college with listen to these days? > Is it, in general, stuff you think is brilliant, or even > particularly worthy? >> On a related note I felt like THE COSBY SHOW wasn't realistic. >> But, what really was in the '80s? > > What sitcom of any era or any race of people is or has been?? >> Jen, you is my enemy now? > > I is the enemy of narrow-mindedness. > Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:08:00 +0000 From: 1325carter@comcast.net Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud There certainly is! "Xanadu" is the funniest, most enjoyable show on Broadway. There's always a need for beautifully realized pure entertainment. Regards, Bill - -------------- Original message -------------- From: Jenny Grover sleeveless@zoominternet.net Yet there's a need for, say, Xanadu?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:08:00 +0000 From: 1325carter@comcast.net Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud There certainly is! "Xanadu" is the funniest, most enjoyable show on Broadway. There's always a need for beautifully realized pure entertainment. Regards, Bill - -------------- Original message -------------- From: Jenny Grover sleeveless@zoominternet.net Yet there's a need for, say, Xanadu?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:14:01 EDT From: Markwstaples@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud In a message dated 7/29/2008 9:41:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AWeiss4338@aol.com writes: Mark that's not funny, that slur. That's wrong!! Andrea Of course it's wrong! It's totally 1864, which is exactly why I used it. Ever read GONE WITH THE WIND, or see the movie? Do you honestly think I'd use that word in reference to someone in reality? I used to squirm watching QUEER AS FOLK, when Brian would use a gay slur in reference to another character! It was simply me playing up my vilification as being narrow-minded. Me, the teacher working as a Special Ed. aide, using my teaching certificate to tutor homebound sick kids for extra money on the side because the aide position, though EXTREMELY personally fulfilling, doesn't make me enough to make it on (all my kids that I've worked with this past year, both as an aide and as a tutoring teacher save one were black, btw--two in poverty, one from a working class background). Me, also told by a couple of people with good intentions that the reason I don't get a regular job is because I come across as too gay, and principals are afraid to hire me! My own principal told me that she didn't think I'd fit in as a regualar teacher on staff! I'm not even "out" with her. She was basing it on my personality alone. I was told by my cooperating teacher in student teaching that my appearance was what the principal took issue with--fat guys with beards and Birkenstocks were a turn-off to the mother of a senator. Here's my un-nice response to that: PLASTIC ASSHOLE. I think I know what discrimination is, and I used the term exactly the way I wanted to. I only do it all, because like Matt Dillon said in THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY: "I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the retards." Also Jen, if you want to discuss this with me off-list, feel free, or call me. I may joke, but this really offended me on a deep level. I still love you though. - --Mark **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:15:24 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Middle Class... In Color (Or, What Can Brown Do For You) West Anthony wrote: > I agree with Jen that your remarks were > made in ignorance, but -- and I'm sure Jen will agree with me on this > -- that doesn't mean your remarks were made with malice, or that they > make you a racist. West is right about that, though I wasn't even going to go as far as ignorance on Mark's part as much as his not really thinking through what he was saying, and perhaps not knowing enough about the plot of the play before jumping in with the Porgy and Bess stuff. But then he seemed to reinforce what I hoped he really wasn't saying. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:27:24 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud In a message dated 7/30/2008 12:17:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Markwstaples@aol.com writes: Of course it's wrong! It's totally 1864, which is exactly why I used it. Ever read GONE WITH THE WIND, or see the movie? Do you honestly think I'd use that word in reference to someone in reality? It's not 1864, it's 2008, and what went back then does not fly today. 08 is the reality. I used to squirm watching QUEER AS FOLK, when Brian would use a gay slur in reference to another character! And i don't like that either, and wouldn't use them, but you squrm about that, but not the D word? I think I know what discrimination is, and I used the term exactly the way I wanted to. But if you do, then why use the slur at all? Mark, I'm Jewish. you wouldn't say slurs about me, or some abstract situation? I only do it all, because like Matt Dillon said in THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY: "I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the retards." And you're a Special Ed teacher. Shame on you! Mark, let's take this off list. I don't think on list is right here. Andrea **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:35:54 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud > What's a Title 1 school? I'm not familiar with that term. That much, I can illuminate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_1 Reminding folks that these days you can Wiki just about anything, Andy "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." Isaiah 2:4 & Micah 4:3 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:35:54 -0700 From: "Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] At the half, so sayeth the Voice From The Cloud > What's a Title 1 school? I'm not familiar with that term. That much, I can illuminate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_1 Reminding folks that these days you can Wiki just about anything, Andy "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." Isaiah 2:4 & Micah 4:3 ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V7 #461 *******************************