From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V7 #120 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, May 23 2007 Volume 07 : Number 120 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) ["Michael Bowen" Subject: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) "Open My Eyes" by The Nazz just popped up on the iPod, and I've always wondered what that effect is that is slathered all over the song. Is that phasing, flanging, or something else? MB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:02:23 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) >"Open My Eyes" by The Nazz just popped up on the iPod, and I've always >wondered what that effect is that is slathered all over the song. Is >that phasing, flanging, or something else? I have a hard time detrmining which is which sometimes too. That sounds to me like flanging, at least in the sense that a flanger is the effects box that creates a similar sound. _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:27:32 -0700 From: "bradley skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) > "Open My Eyes" by The Nazz just popped up on the iPod, and I've always > wondered what that effect is that is slathered all over the song. Is > that phasing, flanging, or something else? That's phasing. Flanging is a delay that's being pitch manipulated (in the olden days someone would change the pitch of the delay by putting their hand on the "flange" of the tape delay reel.) Phasing is similar but pitch shifting replaces the delay and result is a much broader spectrum of peaks and valleys. B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:39:03 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) On 5/22/07, bradley skaught wrote: > > > "Open My Eyes" by The Nazz just popped up on the iPod, and I've always > > wondered what that effect is that is slathered all over the song. Is > > that phasing, flanging, or something else? > > That's phasing. Flanging is a delay that's being pitch manipulated (in the > olden days someone would change the pitch of the delay by putting their > hand > on the "flange" of the tape delay reel.) Phasing is similar but pitch > shifting replaces the delay and result is a much broader spectrum of peaks > and valleys. So what you're hearing in phasing is (as the name suggests) the "same" sounds but going gradually out of phase with one another, whereas in flanging you're hearing the sounds overlaid (with slight delay?) with slight pitch alteration, right? (To throw a third term in, "chorusing" is overlaying pitch-altered material but right in time, right?) That sort of ascending/descending jetplane whoosh is characteristic of phasing, isn't it? Incidentally, if you have sound-editing software (and there are freebies you can download), it's fairly easy to experiment with these things, so you can hear what happens if you put something lsightly out of phase (uh, like the letters in the word "slightly" I meant to type) on top of its original, or detune something slightly (preserving the speed, though) on top of the original, etc. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:48:14 -0400 From: "Michael Bowen" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) OK, if that's phasing (as Jeff put it, that "ascending/descending jetplane whoosh"), what would be a well-known record that demonstrates flanging? Chorus I think I understand, as most of the records made in the '80s seemed to use the guitar chorus pedal cranked to 11. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:51:08 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) >That's phasing. Flanging is a delay that's being pitch manipulated (in the >olden days someone would change the pitch of the delay by putting their >hand on the "flange" of the tape delay reel.) Phasing is similar but pitch >shifting replaces the delay and result is a much broader spectrum of peaks >and valleys. If this is the case (and I'm not entirely doubting it), why do you have to use a flanger to get that effect from a guitar, whereas a phase shifter creates a different effect? _________________________________________________________________ Catch suspicious messages before you open themwith Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 09:01:51 -0700 From: "bradley skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) >That sort of ascending/descending jetplane whoosh is characteristic of phasing, isn't it? Yeah, an exagerrated flange effect would be much more of a warbly, bubbly sound than a whoosh. Not to get all technical. B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 09:06:08 -0700 From: "bradley skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) > OK, if that's phasing (as Jeff put it, that "ascending/descending > jetplane whoosh"), what would be a well-known record that demonstrates > flanging? Chorus I think I understand, as most of the records made in > the '80s seemed to use the guitar chorus pedal cranked to 11. Flanging is part of the pop music vocabulary largely because of the Beatles--Lennon got tired of having to double track his vocals, so they ran his vocal track through a tape delay and manipulated the pitch slightly to create a "double" effect. Again, it's more "bubbly" than "whooshy"! I feel like Tim Walters could probably explain this stuff more accurately... B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 09:11:01 -0700 From: "bradley skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) > If this is the case (and I'm not entirely doubting it), why do you > have to use a flanger to get that effect from a guitar, whereas > a phase shifter creates a different effect? A phase shifter is manipulating the EQ of the existing signal--at a fast rate it's not that much different sounding than flanging, but there's no delay involved. A flange pedal is creating a delay and the delayed signal's pitch is being manipulated--it's more about adding an altered sound to the original sound than altering the only existing sound. So, if you were playing "Open My Eyes" you'd want to use a phase pedal (on the entire band, ideally!) since the sound on that record is just the entire track having its EQ manipulated. B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 09:14:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Tim Walters" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) > I feel > like Tim Walters could probably explain this stuff more accurately... Somebody's done it for me: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/qa0306_1.htm?print=yes - -- Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:38:22 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) On 5/22/07, 2fs wrote: > > On 5/22/07, bradley skaught wrote: > > > > > "Open My Eyes" by The Nazz just popped up on the iPod, and I've always > > > wondered what that effect is that is slathered all over the song. Is > > > that phasing, flanging, or something else? > > > Incidentally, if you have sound-editing software (and there are freebies > you can download), it's fairly easy to experiment with these things, so you > can hear what happens if you put something lsightly out of phase (uh, like > the letters in the word "slightly" I meant to type) on top of its original, > or detune something slightly (preserving the speed, though) on top of the > original, etc. To demonstrate: : a brief excerpt which you'll all recognize : the same excerpt, run through GoldWave's flanging effect* : the same excerpt, run through Audacity's phasing effect** Technical details (now if someone could explain what the hell all these mean...) * stereo sine modulation; source volume 80%, flange volume -80%, no feedback. 10ms variable delay at .5 Hz, fixed delay 10ms ** 2 steps, LFO frequencey .7 Hz, LFO start phase 80 degrees, depth 142, 70% feedback - -- > > ...Jeff Norman > > The Architectural Dance Society > http://spanghew.blogspot.com - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:06:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Tim Walters" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Recording Effect Question (no Scott) > A phase shifter is manipulating the EQ of the existing signal--at a fast > rate it's not that much different sounding than flanging, but there's no > delay involved. Actually, it is a delay (as is EQ), it's just a very short one, so short that when taken as a frequency it's well into (or above) the audio range. E.g. 0.5 msec delay = 2 kHz. All the effects being discussed, and many more, are variations on the theme of delayed signals being summed with the original signal. The hierarchy of delay times goes like this: Phase shifting < flanging < chorus < slapback < echo < Frippertronics There's a lot more to it than that, but I'm at work now... - -- Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:23:23 -0400 From: "outbound-only email address" Subject: [loud-fans] phase/flange This wikipedia article does a pretty good job of laying it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanging If this is the case (and I'm not entirely doubting it), why do you > have to use a flanger to get that effect from a guitar, whereas > a phase shifter creates a different effect? Once you start talking about effects boxes, there's another issue -- the classic effects boxes are all circuits built to simulate things that happen to signals. Reverb is maybe the best example of what I'm talking about - flipping on your reverb certainly doesn't change the size of the room you're playing in, but it does sound a little bit like playing in a differently sized room. In very much the same way, a flanger pedal emulates -- but doesn't duplicate! -- the audio characteristics of physical flanging. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:36:00 -0700 (PDT) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] phase/flange > Once you start talking about effects boxes, there's another issue -- the > classic effects boxes are all circuits built to simulate things that > happen > to signals. Reverb is maybe the best example of what I'm talking about - > flipping on your reverb certainly doesn't change the size of the room > you're > playing in, but it does sound a little bit like playing in a differently > sized room. In very much the same way, a flanger pedal emulates -- but > doesn't duplicate! -- the audio characteristics of physical flanging. Can somebody tell me what pedals/effects go into play during the Nazz's "Train Kept A-Rollin'"? Never too good at math, Andy "Brick is a reference to a popular building material Lace is a reference to a kind of fabric R&B stands for Rock & Boll" - --from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Never ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V7 #120 *******************************