From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V7 #33 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, February 9 2007 Volume 07 : Number 033 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] (non-tender) Idols [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop [zoom@muppetlabs.com] [loud-fans] American Idolatry [Jon Tveite ] Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop [2fs ] Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop ["Steve Holtebeck" ] Fw: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop [Mike Curley ] Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop [glenn mcdonald ] [loud-fans] great news! [CertronC90@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] American Idolatry ["bradley skaught" ] [loud-fans] more songs about rocks off and drugs ["rslloyd" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] (non-tender) Idols Roger Winston wrote: > Seriously, TV now is better than it's ever been. Is that really saying much? There's always been a lot of crap on TV, and there still is, only there's more channels of it now. I don't watch much TV because there isn't much that interests me there (can't get into the drama, sitcom, contest type stuff at all), repulsion to some of the "dark" material aside (I don't mind dark themes, but I don't want to see gore and decomposing bodies when I'm surfing channels over dinner-- or anytime, for that matter). I will never get over the real life firefighting show several years ago I stumbled on by accident while surfing, that was actual footage, not dramatized, that showed them discovering the body of a baby that had died in a fire-- a body that the parents outside were not even allowed to see, despite their pleas, as it was taken away, covered, in an ambulance. The shock of that really turned the tide for me as far as TV is concerned. Not only was it horrific, but it was disrespectful to the victim and his grieving family. I'm sure that show had disclaimers, but those only work if you tune in at the beginning of a segment. What annoys me a lot, though, is that the so-called learning, discovery, etc. channels have sunk. Now it's tattoos, motorcycles, and archeology and science shows that are increasingly thin on material per show and therefore repeat everything they've already said after every commercial break (a practice that makes me want to scream). Maybe some of the HBO stuff is good, but we don't subscribe to any premium channels, and I can't imagine we would get our money's worth out of them. Ah, well... baseball season will be here in about 6 weeks... Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:03:06 -0800 From: Russ Lewis Subject: [loud-fans] Re: i've heard it all now > In a message dated 2/7/2007 8:01:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sleeveless@zoominternet.net writes: > > "Blister in the Sun" backing a Wendy's commercial. > > Jen I once heard the Muzak version of the Bee Gees' "Melody Fair" on the PA at Pic 'n' Save ("the original outlet store") in El Cajon, Calif., around 1980; who did they possibly think would recognize that? And later I heard the 101 Strings version of "Journey to the Center of the Mind" on the PA in Grossmont Center in La Mesa, Calif. I swear to God. - --R.L. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:37:49 -0800 (PST) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop >>From the "two random groups of 500 reaching the same consensus" dept. I get the feeling we've got less randomness between the two groups than meets the eye. Maybe glenn can tell us how many people voted in both polls. Comparisons become somewhat more interesting with the list poll swirled into the mix. For example, our results first, then the Voice's: 1/ Loud Family And Anton Barbeau - What If It Works? (76.26 points) #313, 27 points (3 votes) 2/ Belle And Sebastian - The Life Pursuit (42.13 points) #14, 423(38) 3/ Pernice Brothers - Live A Little (35.12 points) #47, 186(13) 4/ Neko Case - Fox Confessor Brings The Flood (32.12 points) #8, 645(64) 5/ Yo La Tengo - I Am Not Afraid Of You And I Will Beat Your Ass (24.08 points) #18, 342(35) 6/ Destroyer - Destroyer's Rubies (20.07 points) #35, 231(22) 7/ Robyn Hitchcock And The Venus 3 - Ole! Tarantula (19.08 points) Apparently #77, although mangled vote counting between the single and the album makes it hard to tell. 8/ Hold Steady - Boys And Girls In America (17.06 points) #4, 983(81) 8/ Bob Dylan - Modern Times (17.06 points) # 1, 1123(95) 10/ Lindsey Buckingham - Under The Skin (15.06 points) #94, 90(9) ...and here's my Loud ballot versus P&J: 1. The Loud Family And Anton Barbeau - What If It Works? #313, 27 points (3 votes) 2. Meat Loaf - Bat Out Of Hell III: The Monster Is Loose (did not chart) 3. Scott Walker - The Drift #31, 245(18) 4. Sparks - Hello Young Lovers #204, 42(5) 5. Smoosh - Free To Stay (did not chart) 6. Gil Ray - I Am Atomic Man! (did not chart--sorry Gil) 7. Ornette Coleman - Sound Grammar #21, 314(27) 8. Lindsey Buckingham - Under The Skin (15.06 points) #94, 90(9) 9. Yusuf - An Other Cup #399, 20(2) 10. Sean Lennon - Friendly Fire (did not chart, although two of its tracks made the Singles list) 11. Mishka Adams - God Bless The Child (did not chart) 12. Wadada Leo Smith And Adam Rudolph - Compassion (did not chart) 13. Roberta Flack - Friends: Roberta Flack Sings Mariko Takahashi (did not chart) 14. Rod Stewart - Still The Same...Great Rock Classics Of Our Time (did not chart) 15. Johnny Cash - American V: A Hundred Highways #45, 196(22) What a relief to know I'm still crazy relative to at least two random groups. This time Paris Hilton finished #95, 89(5). I'm unable to locate a complete list of all the albums top-to-bottom (somebody point me there if you find it), but I can safely say she beat out Rod Stewart, Roberta Flack, and Johnny Cash. Though not the Beatles--#66, 137(13). As usual, we need glenn to tell us what it all means. I wasn't asked to participate, but I count glenn as one of four Loudfans I could find amongst the voters. Though they still can't spell his name right. Come to think of it, I don't know if glenn's name ever appeared correctly in *any* professional publication... Andy Jewel Defends American Idol Judges 1/24/07 Pop star Jewel has defended the American Idol judges for poking fun at wannabe pop stars - because so many terrible talents really think they're good. The singer, who was a guest judge for auditions in Minnesota and who currently hosts Nashville Star, admits she was stunned by how many awful hopefuls really thought they were pop star material - and applauds judges Simon Cowell, Paula Abdul and Randy Jackson for their harsh comments. Jewel says, "I was shocked at the seriousness of them (wannabes). They really, really believed they were going to win." While Jewel felt awful about "shattering somebody's perception of themselves," she felt some hopefuls needed a dressing down and she left the audition process feeling sorry for the judges and the long hours they have to put in listening to terrible singers. Cowell, Jackson and Abdul came under fire last week (ends19JAN07) for picking on auditioning contestants in Seattle, Washington. [--from http://www.celebrityspider.com/news/january07/article012407-4.html ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:16:12 -0600 From: Jon Tveite Subject: [loud-fans] American Idolatry I have watched American Idol occasionally. I hate the kind of singing that usually succeeds on it, I hate the hype, and I hate the whole teenie-bopper wing of pop culture, so I really shouldn't be able to stand it. But it is interesting for reasons that have nothing to do with music. My theory is that AI's so big because we just don't see honest critique in the area of pop culture -- or at least most people don't (you have to seek it out). Most of what the media conglomerates dump in our troughs is about selling us things, most of which aren't worth buying. That's why Simon is the star of American Idol: he will tell you what he really thinks. He's sadistic at times, but he's generally right. I think he really believes he's doing people a favor. If they have talent but aren't living up to it, he wants them to do better. If they don't have talent, he wants them to know that, so they can get on with their lives. In terms of how much I enjoy laughing at other people's failures and misfortunes, I am probably in the lowest percentile. But the cattle-call shows, where they don't just show the people who can actually sing, are hard to resist. It is amazing how clueless some of these folks are. They have no rational sense of what it takes to be a pop star. They just know they should be one. It would be truly sad, if it weren't all so frivolous. The world doesn't need any more disposable pop stars. I think the humor comes from anticipation. Many of these kids have egos that are so over-inflated for so little reason, they don't realize they are floating directly toward an extremely sharp object -- but the audience sees it right away. If that is schadenfreude, it's in a pretty complicated form. Jon PS: I am really enjoying Dynamico! (More on that later, I'm sure...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:58:03 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop On 2/8/07, zoom@muppetlabs.com wrote: > > >>From the "two random groups of 500 reaching the same consensus" dept. > > I get the feeling we've got less randomness between the two groups than > meets the eye. Maybe glenn can tell us how many people voted in both > polls. Or you could look at this "metapollism" - from someone well known to us all: . - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:56:45 -0800 From: "Steve Holtebeck" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop On 2/8/07, 2fs wrote: > On 2/8/07, zoom@muppetlabs.com wrote: > > > > >>From the "two random groups of 500 reaching the same consensus" dept. > > > > I get the feeling we've got less randomness between the two groups than > > meets the eye. Maybe glenn can tell us how many people voted in both > > polls. > > > Or you could look at this "metapollism" - from someone well known to us all: > . 163 people voted in both polls (using the same name), which splits the Venn diagram neatly into thirds. 1/3 voted in both polls 1/3 voted only in P&J 1/3 voted only in JP In case anyone cares - -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:26:42 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Curley Subject: Fw: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop One small correction. Since 163 people voted on both polls, it means that for each poll roughly 1/3 voted in both polls, and 2/3 voted only in that poll. This mean for both polls combined: 163 people voted in both polls (~20% of all critics) 334 voted in Jackin' Pop only (~40% of all critics) 331 voted in Pazz & Jop only (~40% of all critics) Mike - ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Steve Holtebeck 163 people voted in both polls (using the same name), which splits the Venn diagram neatly into thirds. 1/3 voted in both polls 1/3 voted only in P&J 1/3 voted only in JP In case anyone cares - -Steve _____________________________________________________________________________ _______ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:31:48 -0500 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pazz & Jop Yeah, I have the two polls completely cross-tabulated now, so I can tell you pretty much anything you want to know. Here are the basics: http://www.furia.com/page.cgi?type=twas&id=twas0508h although I think the better first way to look at the data is like this: http://www.furia.com/page.cgi?type=twas&id=twas0508g 180 people voted in both polls, with varying degrees of ballot overlap. And to see the skew between the polls, go to that first link and click the delta heading. What else do you want to know? glenn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:27:07 EST From: CertronC90@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] great news! Since I've let y'all in on the continuing story that is me trying to get a "real" job, here's the latest installment: I think the middle class may be giving me a toe hold. I was hired today to be a Special Ed. teacher's aide at a very prestigious elementary school here, called Sarah Collins, and, being hired as a regular employee of the school district and not a sub, I get health insurance (what I consider the holy grail of occupational perks--I haven't had any for 15 years since I was a mail clerk at an insurance company)--and, I get paid highest in the pay band because I'm a certified teacher. The other perk I'm really happy about is the district will pay for the courses I need to become a Special Ed. certified teacher, and with that, I can write my ticket just about anywhere in the country, as they are crying for them all over, whereas regular certified teachers like me are pretty much a bountiful crop. I'm still going to work at the restaurant, but only on Friday nights and Saturdays, to subsidize my income. What's really odd is I found out the principal that hired me used to be very close friends of my choir teacher and his wife at my church growing up--they used to live three doors up. - --Mark, asking the question: Can a Bear do the funky snake? I just may try!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:09:06 -0800 From: "bradley skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] American Idolatry > My theory is that AI's so big because we just don't see honest >critique > in the area of pop culture -- or at least most people don't (you >have > to seek it out). In a somewhat similar way, Diddy's "Making The Band" show is a pretty fascinating look at just how much hard work and tough skin it takes to be a successful top 40 artist. The end result is kind of lame, musically, but the idea that a good looking girl is just being propped by entirely external forces is shown to be false. Whatever the artistic value of the end result might be, or the motivations of the people holding the purse strings, it's a lot of hard work to "make it" for sure. Diddy and his crew put the contestants through some really rigorous criticism and rehearsal (and not just shock value/reality show stuff--actual constructive, practical criticism.) I found it pretty compelling--almost as if AI started with the tryout, and then had Simon follow them through every little step, working with them and really testing them. B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:51:07 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] American Idolatry On 2/8/07, bradley skaught wrote: > > > My theory is that AI's so big because we just don't see honest >critique > > in the area of pop culture -- or at least most people don't (you >have > > to seek it out). > > In a somewhat similar way, Diddy's "Making The Band" show is a pretty > fascinating look at just how much hard work and tough skin it takes to be > a > successful top 40 artist. The end result is kind of lame, musically, but > the > idea that a good looking girl is just being propped by entirely external > forces is shown to be false. Whatever the artistic value of the end result > might be, or the motivations of the people holding the purse strings, it's > a > lot of hard work to "make it" for sure. Diddy and his crew put the > contestants through some really rigorous criticism and rehearsal (and not > just shock value/reality show stuff--actual constructive, practical > criticism.) I found it pretty compelling--almost as if AI started with the > tryout, and then had Simon follow them through every little step, working > with them and really testing them. I haven't seen this either - but I'm sure it would be interesting. My position, really, has always been that anyone who can be a reasonably successful star for a sustained period of time in the music industry does have some talent...that talent may not be musical, however, but the less exotic talent of persistence, as well as a certain amount of savvy and willingness to change course as needed. It's also true that even if I don't care to listen to them, chart singles certainly are the product of a lot of very talented people, with an enormous amount of craft required to make everything work. (I think this is particularly true on the technical end: production, engineering, mixing, etc.) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 23:16:57 -0800 From: "rslloyd" Subject: [loud-fans] more songs about rocks off and drugs Just for the heck of it, here's some loosely connected late-night musing about Scott inspirations. At least one other person has wondered how "Rocks Off" and "Song About Rocks Off" are connected-and tried "Ask Scott." Scott's reply was pretty focused on what "Rocks Off" had meant to him personally, and it seemed to have a lot to do with what it was like just to be young and blindly in love with rock music. Listening to "Song About Rocks Off," I can hear a few apparently direct references to "Rocks Off," such as "Don't watch my mouth move, that was my devil's mask pretending," which could be an echo of "Your mouth don't move, but I can hear you speak" and maybe "Sympathy for the Devil." The two songs also seem to share some references to driving and to dancers, and maybe to a lot of time and experiences lost to drugs (not necessarily referring to the singer). Both songs seem to indicate a loss of ability to connect, even physically, to anyone else: Scott's song begins with a feeling of detachment and ends with "Your handshake is all the holding I know." (I have no idea what's going on with the dogs, though it almost sounds like some sort of Zen koan. And I sometimes wonder if the end isn't actually about getting a diploma and a handshake upon graduating but having no idea what of value actually happened during those years.) Regardless of all that, I've been mulling over whether "Jimmy Still Comes Around" might not have been, at least in part, an earlier song about "Rocks Off." "Jimmy Still Comes Around" seems to confront the influence of heavy drugs more directly than "Song About Rocks Off" and feels less personal. The song title certainly seems like it could allude to "What's the matter with the boy, he don't come around no more" from "Rocks Off." And "They can buy their own pool and survive all the drops off the deep end" sounds like it could be an ironic reference to Brian Jones being found dead in his swimming pool. The Stones have certainly had their ups and downs with drugs, including not just Jones and Richards, but Jimmy Miller, the Stones' producer at the time of "Rocks Off." On the other hand, you could make a case that "Jimmy Still Comes Around" is just as likely inspired by Jim Morrison of The Doors, with (again) its title and lines like "You can deadbolt the doors" and "A Miami exposure bust looking for a stage." And Morrison was found dead in a bathtub, I think. Down down down down... ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V7 #33 ******************************