From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V6 #177 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, September 7 2006 Volume 06 : Number 177 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] lala.com questions [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Pandora.com [2fs ] Re: [loud-fans] Pandora.com ["Michael Mitton" ] Re: [loud-fans] Pandora.com [2fs ] Re: [loud-fans] lala.com questions [Sarah Gordon Subject: Re: [loud-fans] lala.com questions Roger Winston wrote: > > Am I right that you can send CDs "sans artwork"? If so, how would > anyone know it's a promo? I don't believe I've seen any where the > warning is stamped on the disc itself. Actually, I have received a number of promos that have "for promotional use only" printed right on the disc itself. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 13:06:28 -0600 From: "Roger Winston" Subject: [loud-fans] Pandora.com I'm sure this has probably come up before, but I don't remember and I don't have access to my LoudFans archive right now. Has anyone tried Pandora.com (aka The Music Genome Project)? This is one of those sites where you enter your favorite artist(s) and it creates a radio station and plays songs from that artist along with ones from other artists based on what it thinks you would like. You can also do a thumbs up/down to the songs it picks to further tailor the listening experience. Supposedly one of the benefits of this site is that it doesn't just feature popular, hip, or major label artists - it will stick anyone in there. So I tried putting in "Loud Family", and it played: Give In World What Little Remains (Posies, Failure) Something You Should Know (Michael Learns To Rock, Greatest Hits) Murder Or A Heart Attack (Old 97s, Fight Songs) He Do The Police... Apology (Posies, Dear 23) Back Home Again (Greg Brown, One Big Town) I've never heard of MLTR or Greg Brown - the MLTR track was okay but the Brown one didn't do anything for me. It seems a bit fixated on the LF/Posies connection. And I wonder if the only LF album they have is P&B&R&T. The non-registration trial ended after these songs and then it wanted me to register. Supposedly registration is free, or you can pay $3 a month and not get banner ads. The thing I found most interesting is that apparently someone or something has actually gone through and categorized these songs by (some 200) attributes, which it then uses to match with other songs that have the same attributes. For example, Give In World is described as: basic rock song structures a subtle use of vocal harmony acoustic rhythm piano mixed acoustic and electric instrumentation major key tonality prominent organ acoustic rhythm guitars b&which really doesn't get at the heart of the song or the band in my opinion, but whatever. What I most like about GIW is the driving guitar and the catchy chorus. And no mention of the weird lyrical break? "Subtle vocal harmony"? Obviously these attributes are mostly describing arrangements rather than anything subjective like melody, which makes me think they're computer generated somehow. Also I think it's dangerous to characterize a band by one song. Still, it's interesting that someone is trying. And this might get me to actually try out some artists I would not have heard any other way. Latre. --Rog - -- FlasshePoint, yet another blog among millions: http://www.flasshe.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:25:35 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pandora.com On 9/6/06, Roger Winston wrote: Has anyone tried Pandora.com (aka The Music Genome > Project)? This is one of those sites where you enter > your favorite artist(s) and it creates a radio > station and plays songs from that artist along with > ones from other artists based on what it thinks you > would like. You can also do a thumbs up/down to the > songs it picks to further tailor the listening > experience. Supposedly one of the benefits of this > site is that it doesn't just feature popular, hip, or > major label artists - it will stick anyone in there. > > > The thing I found most interesting is that apparently > someone or something has actually gone through and > categorized these songs by (some 200) attributes, > which it then uses to match with other songs that > have the same attributes. For example, Give In World > is described as: > > basic rock song structures > a subtle use of vocal harmony > acoustic rhythm piano > mixed acoustic and electric instrumentation > major key tonality > prominent organ > acoustic rhythm guitars > > b&which really doesn't get at the heart of the song or > the band in my opinion, but whatever. What I most > like about GIW is the driving guitar and the catchy > chorus. And no mention of the weird lyrical break? > "Subtle vocal harmony"? Obviously these attributes > are mostly describing arrangements rather than > anything subjective like melody, which makes me think > they're computer generated somehow. Also I think > it's dangerous to characterize a band by one song. Yeah, I think this has come up here before. I think I read somewhere that actual human musicologists were hired to analyze the songs...but clearly, there were prefab categories used. It's rather odd to describe "Give In World" - which has, if I remember, a "middle eight" comprising nearly a third of the song's total time - as having "basic rock song structures." And yes, those descriptions don't really get at what makes a song work. Offlist, in fact, another list member (who can chime in if he wants) and I were talking about the sometimes extremely subtle things that make one song work (and another one not). We were talking about the notion of the "event": some particular something that grabs hold of the ear and elevates (what might otherwise be) a conventional song to a more intriguing level. Scott's music is *full* of those things, on all sorts of levels: harmonic, rhythmic, textural, lyrical, structural, contextual...you name it, Scott will find some way to make a song stand out from its class. And if something like Pandora could ever isolate those, it might be worth something. It might separate why, for example, despite generally liking a lot of early '90s American indie rock, Sebadoh has never done much for me. The way to get such a database, though, would be rather labor intensive: it would involve not only the musically knowledgeable (to act like George Martin and translate laymen's terms into musical ones) but also everyday fans, trying to express why a song they like moves them, or why a song they don't like does not do so. And I think things like "driving guitar" are a lot likelier candidates than "mixed acoustic and electric instrumentation" (which, of course, describes nearly every record made in the last 50 years, including those records featuring wah-wah tuba and xylophone covering Elvis Presley's hits in arrangements inspired by the I Ching and circus music). And the reason there is no such site is all the Republicans' fault, dammit. (Hey - if music discussion can't get the list talking, maybe political - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:02:23 -0700 From: "Michael Mitton" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pandora.com I've been using last.fm to do the same thing. I haven't tried Pandora, but with last.fm, you can install a plugin to your music player that will upload everything you listen to. It gives you a personal radio station which isn't judged by "musicologists" or genre analysis--it just looks for people who are listening to the same thing as you, then plays you things from their collection that you don't have (or last.fm has no reason to think you have). Each song, you can vote with "love" or "ban" to refine your tastes. You can also listen to your friends' radio stations. That is, put me down as a friend, "mlmitton", and you can listen to my station. This is especially useful if I'm really interested in listening to some Blue Oyster Cult, since I can just listen to "rwinston" and rawk away. For those of us who like the randomness of radio, but dislike too much of what's actually on radio to bother with listening to it, this is a fun solution. mm On 9/6/06, Roger Winston wrote: > I'm sure this has probably come up before, but I > don't remember and I don't have access to my LoudFans > archive right now. > > Has anyone tried Pandora.com (aka The Music Genome > Project)? This is one of those sites where you enter > your favorite artist(s) and it creates a radio > station and plays songs from that artist along with > ones from other artists based on what it thinks you > would like. You can also do a thumbs up/down to the > songs it picks to further tailor the listening > experience. Supposedly one of the benefits of this > site is that it doesn't just feature popular, hip, or > major label artists - it will stick anyone in there. > > So I tried putting in "Loud Family", and it played: > > Give In World > What Little Remains (Posies, Failure) > Something You Should Know (Michael Learns To Rock, > Greatest Hits) > Murder Or A Heart Attack (Old 97s, Fight Songs) > He Do The Police... > Apology (Posies, Dear 23) > Back Home Again (Greg Brown, One Big Town) > > I've never heard of MLTR or Greg Brown - the MLTR > track was okay but the Brown one didn't do anything > for me. It seems a bit fixated on the LF/Posies > connection. And I wonder if the only LF album they > have is P&B&R&T. The non-registration trial ended > after these songs and then it wanted me to register. > Supposedly registration is free, or you can pay $3 a > month and not get banner ads. > > The thing I found most interesting is that apparently > someone or something has actually gone through and > categorized these songs by (some 200) attributes, > which it then uses to match with other songs that > have the same attributes. For example, Give In World > is described as: > > basic rock song structures > a subtle use of vocal harmony > acoustic rhythm piano > mixed acoustic and electric instrumentation > major key tonality > prominent organ > acoustic rhythm guitars > > b&which really doesn't get at the heart of the song or > the band in my opinion, but whatever. What I most > like about GIW is the driving guitar and the catchy > chorus. And no mention of the weird lyrical break? > "Subtle vocal harmony"? Obviously these attributes > are mostly describing arrangements rather than > anything subjective like melody, which makes me think > they're computer generated somehow. Also I think > it's dangerous to characterize a band by one song. > > Still, it's interesting that someone is trying. And > this might get me to actually try out some artists I > would not have heard any other way. > > Latre. --Rog > > > > -- FlasshePoint, yet another blog among millions: > http://www.flasshe.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 16:16:24 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pandora.com On 9/6/06, Michael Mitton wrote: > > I've been using last.fm to do the same thing. I haven't tried > Pandora, but with last.fm, you can install a plugin to your music > player that will upload everything you listen to. It gives you a > personal radio station which isn't judged by "musicologists" or genre > analysis--it just looks for people who are listening to the same thing > as you, then plays you things from their collection that you don't > have (or last.fm has no reason to think you have). Each song, you can > vote with "love" or "ban" to refine your tastes. This is the site formerly known as audioscrobbler, btw. Anyway: I don't think it "uploads" everything you listen to so much as (if you install its plug-in in your iTunes or whatever) keeps track of it. It is interesting, though, that given enough data, generally the most reliable method of guessing whether someone wil like something is simply to find out if other people are listening to the same set of things. Makes sense, although it proceeds from global to local rather than the other way around (i.e., not from "what characterizes, on a micro scale, this particular song you like" but from "since 100 of the people who like these same 100 bands as you like also like this 101st band you apparently haven't heard, odds are good you'll like it too"). Still thinks I should like Sebadoh, though. I haven't made much use of the "radio" stations, though. Too busy listening to music I actually own - plus, given that only a small percentage of my music ends up being listened to on my various iTunes instantiations, the "station" ends up playing a lot of stuff I do, in fact, have. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 18:20:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Gordon Subject: Re: [loud-fans] lala.com questions > Am I right that you can send CDs "sans artwork"? If so, how would > anyone know it's a promo? I don't believe I've seen any where the > warning is stamped on the disc itself. I've actually seen a reasonable number of discs with labels directly on the discs. Sub Pop advance CDs say things like "Property of Sub Pop Records/Surrender On Demand/Not For Sale". Polyvinyl is similar. Other promos sometimes have the words "promotional" or similar verbiage printed over the standard artwork on the disc. So far, I'm enjoying lala quite a bit. I'm happy to pass along CDs I don't listen to to folks who might enjoy them more than I. It's also exciting to get new CDs in the mail that I haven't heard at a low enough cost that if I don't like something, I don't feel like I've spent too much on it. I'm not sure if I'll eventually run out of CDs from my collection to give up in exchange for receiving new ones, but so far that hasn't been a problem. I also like that this is an exchange of used CDs where the artist has a potential to see some profit from it. I don't know the exact details of how the "artists get 20%", but the idea of used CDs generating more payment to artists is appealing to me. Anyway, thanks to the folks who sent 2006 recommendations. I look forward to investigating the unfamiliar artists more closely. Oh, and weren't there rumors of more Loud Family dates on the west coast? I missed all the opportunities to see them thus far and would love to see them. If anyone has the inside scoop on this, do share. - -Sarah ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V6 #177 *******************************