From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V6 #122 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, June 27 2006 Volume 06 : Number 122 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version [2fs] [loud-fans] more Puffaganda [2fs ] Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version ["Ja] Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version [Jo] Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version ["Jo] RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version ["r] RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version [Aar] RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version ["] [loud-fans] ...and the award for bizarrest innovation in use of media goes to... [2fs ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:57:27 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On 6/26/06, Paul King wrote: > > > In your article, you say: > > Elsewhere, the song's narrator seems to lash out at the loss of his > carefree freedom, deciding to "chuck it" (Miller's said > this is a euphemism, in fact) while flying into, of all places, the > home of Puff the Magic Dragon, Honalei - whose > inhabitants, far from being the carefree denizens of the older song, > now screen travelers for fear they might be bearing > contraband "fruit that would displace the native life." > > That would be Honah-Lee (rhymes with "Puff the magic dragon lived by the > sea"). Maybe. The lyrics for "Puff" that I found spelled it "Honalei" (as in the real place). I think it's pronounced "Honah-lee" in the song in order to rhyme...just like some old folk songs will say "Californ-eye-ay." In any event, the similarity of the Puffly and real place names suggests we consider something in common they might have. In a way, we don't need "Puff" to make it work: Hawaii itself is often viewed as a carefree land for tourists, overlooking its history of colonialist exploitation blah-blah-blah. Hanalei is in fact a real place (Googling Hanalei says that it is an island > in > Hawaii). In Hanalei, tourists bringing in "fruit that would displace the > native > life" would be a real concern, and has already happened in many Pacific > islands, > including Hawaii. Yes, yes, of course - literally. I don't think Scott is concerned with actually examining the plight of native fruit in the Pacific islands. I think he's using that actual situation to address...well, whatever it is he's addressing. Literality takes one only so far, especially in Scott's lyrics I'd say. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:39:57 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: [loud-fans] more Puffaganda I was curious... . Whether or not lyricist Lenny Lipton intended "Honah Lee" to refer to Hanalei/Honalei in Hawaii (I've seen both spellings: I suspect it depends whether you're using traditional English orthography or Hawai'ian English...), that place has benefited from the association... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:01:02 -0400 From: "Janet Ingraham Dwyer" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On 6/26/06, 2fs wrote: > > In any event, the similarity of the Puffly and real place names suggests > we > consider something in common they might have. In a way, we don't need > "Puff" > to make it work: Hawaii itself is often viewed as a carefree land for > tourists, overlooking its history of colonialist exploitation > blah-blah-blah. > Honalei would surely be as good a place as any to emerge from a long deep lurk. I'm enjoying this interpretative conversation SO much - it's just like the old days! - and I hope it's OK for me to play too. I have two small children, and the everyday good work they do for Andy & me is showing us "that almost-unnoticed known through new eyes". So, I'm stuck with reading that line as the wonders-of-seeing-the-world - -through-a-child's-eyes-thing. Which forced me to notice several other images of infancy/childhood: make-believe, lullabies, and that rascal Puff... I don't think Scott is concerned with > actually examining the plight of native fruit in the Pacific islands. I > think he's using that actual situation to address...well, whatever it is > he's addressing. > > Literality takes one only so far, especially in Scott's lyrics I'd say. > > I've been reading the second verse, in my child-influenced state, as a precis of a marriage from wedding (preach/pulpit) to childbirth (fruit). Honalei would be the Hawaiian honeymoon perhaps. For "native" I'm reading single, free, at liberty to seek self-gratification. 'Cause let me tell you, children displace that. And we tolerate them, love them (they can't not grow up!), but insofar as parents crave (e.g. sex, svelteness, quiet, space, mobility, a clean house, no gross messes to clean up, the capacity to do what he/she wants anytime) what pre-parents had, life defniitely seems out of control, weird already. It's nice to be here, btw, Janet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:09:25 -0400 From: John Swartzentruber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On 6/26/2006 12:01 PM Janet Ingraham Dwyer wrote: > I've been reading the second verse, in my child-influenced state, as a precis of a marriage from wedding (preach/pulpit) to childbirth (fruit). > Honalei would be the Hawaiian honeymoon perhaps. For "native" I'm reading > single, free, at liberty to seek self-gratification. 'Cause let me tell > you, children displace that. And we tolerate them, love them (they can't > not grow up!), but insofar as parents crave (e.g. sex, svelteness, quiet, > space, mobility, a clean house, no gross messes to clean up, the capacity to > do what he/she wants anytime) what pre-parents had, life defniitely seems > out of control, weird already. I was just wondering if Janet was still around. As the father of two small children I see a lot of truth in Janet's interpretation. Could someone remind me of Scott's fatherhood situation? I know he has a daughter, but I have it in my head that there was or is to be another. I hadn't really looked at the lyrics until after reading Janet's message, but they seem to have an "expecting #2" vibe to them in some way. Certainly the "It's weird already" part. Also, the "Mavis of Maybelline Towers over the skies" part reminds me of "Lucy in the Sky with diamonds" for some reason. Well, obviously the sky part is a major part of the reason. I'll also say that as the father of a four year-old boy who recently got into his mom's lipstick and is really into dress up I suspect that Scott's daughter (probably about 4 right?) is into such things as well. It's hard to see that chorus as not being about her. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, John Swartzentruber wrote: > I was just wondering if Janet was still around. As the father of two > small children I see a lot of truth in Janet's interpretation. Could > someone remind me of Scott's fatherhood situation? Scott and his wife Kristine have two daughters, Valerie, age 3 or so, and Julianne, age < 1. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:30:45 -0700 From: "rslloyd" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version For so few lines, an impressively productive song. I certainly think seeing things through new eyes could include the experience of being a parent of a young child. At the same time, as Janet said, a place like Hawaii starts to look like a fond memory once you have kids (at least for a while). I often see vaguely religious motifs in Scott's songs, and three apparently unrelated possibilities occurred to me: Flying into Hanalei could also echo the Garden of Eden story, in which the fruit is both the symbol of the garden and of the destruction of the garden, at least when humans somehow transgress with it. It would be typical Scott brilliance to overlay that with a seemingly mundane description of an agricultural inspection. Slightly more of a stretch, the progression from "preach" to "on a roll, down from the pulpit and out of control" calls up images of "holy rollers," though I'm not sure what part that would play in the putative progression. And finally, biggest "oh, give me a break" of all, there's always Dante and T. S. Eliot, who place a huge emphasis on others' eyes as a focus for conversion. That said, I really like John Swartzentruber's idea about "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"--maybe Mavis is billboard size, "the girl with the Maybelline eyes"! Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-loud-fans@smoe.org [mailto:owner-loud-fans@smoe.org] On Behalf > Of Janet Ingraham Dwyer > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:01 AM > To: The attractive dissention > Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final > version > > On 6/26/06, 2fs wrote: > > > > In any event, the similarity of the Puffly and real place names suggests > > we > > consider something in common they might have. In a way, we don't need > > "Puff" > > to make it work: Hawaii itself is often viewed as a carefree land for > > tourists, overlooking its history of colonialist exploitation > > blah-blah-blah. > > > > Honalei would surely be as good a place as any to emerge from a long deep > lurk. I'm enjoying this interpretative conversation SO much - it's just > like the old days! - and I hope it's OK for me to play too. > > I have two small children, and the everyday good work they do for Andy & > me > is showing us "that almost-unnoticed known through new eyes". So, I'm > stuck > with reading that line as the wonders-of-seeing-the-world > -through-a-child's-eyes-thing. Which forced me to notice several other > images of infancy/childhood: make-believe, lullabies, and that rascal > Puff... > > I don't think Scott is concerned with > > actually examining the plight of native fruit in the Pacific islands. I > > think he's using that actual situation to address...well, whatever it is > > he's addressing. > > > > Literality takes one only so far, especially in Scott's lyrics I'd say. > > > > I've been reading the second verse, in my child-influenced state, as a > precis of a marriage from wedding (preach/pulpit) to childbirth (fruit). > Honalei would be the Hawaiian honeymoon perhaps. For "native" I'm reading > single, free, at liberty to seek self-gratification. 'Cause let me tell > you, children displace that. And we tolerate them, love them (they can't > not grow up!), but insofar as parents crave (e.g. sex, svelteness, quiet, > space, mobility, a clean house, no gross messes to clean up, the capacity > to > do what he/she wants anytime) what pre-parents had, life defniitely seems > out of control, weird already. > > It's nice to be here, btw, > Janet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:01:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, rslloyd wrote: > That said, I really like John Swartzentruber's idea about "Lucy in the > Sky with Diamonds"--maybe Mavis is billboard size, "the girl with the > Maybelline eyes"! The song calls up "Lucy" for me, too. I've been trying to put my finger on what it is that "over the skies" signifies to me, as opposed to "over the sky". Because it *feels* different. "The skies" sound to me more like the atmosphere, "the wild blue yonder", the place that airplanes and birds move in; "the sky", on the other hand, is more indefinite-- it's everything above us, up through empty space, stars, nebulas, etc. As stretches go, the 9/11 thing resonates more in my head than the connections to child-rearing. "Mavis" just feels so thoroughly, if quietly, sinister. a ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:59:06 -0700 From: "rslloyd" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version Aaron wrote: > As stretches go, the 9/11 thing resonates more in my head than the > connections to child-rearing. "Mavis" just feels so thoroughly, if > quietly, sinister. ... maybe a less obviously sinister version of 1984's "Big Brother Is Watching You" posters, or those giant ads in "Blade Runner." Child-rearing certainly has its despairs as well as its delights. In addition to the wonderful things kids say and do, there are all those thoughts about the world they're going to have to live in--the world created by people who were once just as bright and innocent as they are now. And the thought of losing them, in various senses. Every parent must shudder to think of their child's face on a milk carton or a wanted poster. There's some of this in that Sufjan Stevens song, "John Wayne Gacy, Jr." I bet we could spend a lot of time just on "make-believe hours": good thing? bad thing? "Make-believe" is a weird word when you think about it. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: [loud-fans] ...and the award for bizarrest innovation in use of media goes to... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eb Date: Jun 26, 2006 7:33 PM Subject: File under: Bands you didn't expect to see promoted on CNN To: fgz - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:53:31 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On 6/26/06, rslloyd wrote: > > > > That said, I really like John Swartzentruber's idea about "Lucy in the Sky > with Diamonds"--maybe Mavis is billboard size, "the girl with the > Maybelline > eyes"! What's amusing about this - given that your post responds to Janet's - i9 that as a resident of Columbus, Janet is well aware that downtown Columbus is full of giant advertisements taking over entire sides of buildings. So yes, one can imagine an enormous Maybelline ad - featuring our eponymous Mavis as model - towering over Columbus, filling the side of a highrise apartment building, say. Actually - what with the enormous eye and all - I think the song's really about Lord of the Rings. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:56:24 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On 6/26/06, rslloyd wrote: > > Aaron wrote: > > > As stretches go, the 9/11 thing resonates more in my head than the > > connections to child-rearing. "Mavis" just feels so thoroughly, if > > quietly, sinister. > > ... maybe a less obviously sinister version of 1984's "Big Brother Is > Watching You" posters, or those giant ads in "Blade > Runner." Child-rearing > certainly has its despairs as well as its delights. The "child" thing could also tie in to the 9/11 angle, I suppose - via the concept of innocence, being unaware of danger, being sheltered, etc. I think "skies" is the thing planes fly in (rather than "sky") largely because of the famous United Airlines jingle from the '60s and '70s: "fly the friendly skies...of United"... (It was United, no?) > > > I bet we could spend a lot of time just on "make-believe hours": good > thing? > bad thing? "Make-believe" is a weird word when you think about it. I thought he said "maple leaves." (Sorry Jens.) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:01:18 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version On 6/26/06, rslloyd wrote: > > For so few lines, an impressively productive song. > And that is one reason - the more I listen to this record - that I'm really glad Scott is back. Few artists repay this kind of attention to their work, and the particular kinds of resonance his songs have is pretty particular to him and his way of thinking. While I very much doubt we'll see a full-fledged career renaissance, with nationwide tours and everything (that would be absurd from a man in Scott's position, married with two kids, in his mid-forties, etc.), I certainly hope it works for him to continue writing and releasing music, on however small a scale that may be. So I say to Scott Miller: Thank you. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:09:54 -0700 From: "rslloyd" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version Jeff wrote: > I think "skies" is the thing planes fly in (rather than "sky") largely > because of the famous United Airlines jingle from the '60s and '70s: "fly > the friendly skies...of United"... (It was United, no?) Even in more recent times, I think, spoken by Gene Hackman, and backed by George Gershwin. A slogan no longer viable post-9/11. I've been wondering: if it's "Towers" (plural proper noun), and not "towers" (verb), why is it "over" the skies. And that made me think of another song that uses "sky" and "lullaby," which is "Over the Rainbow." Of course, Jimi Hendrix had a song called "Up from the Skies" that didn't necessarily make linear sense. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:41:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] "Mavis of Maybelline Towers" tentative final version Exactly. I'm loving this. Gil - --- 2fs wrote: > And that is one reason - the more I listen to this > record - that I'm really > glad Scott is back. Few artists repay this kind of > attention to their work, > and the particular kinds of resonance his songs have > is pretty particular to > him and his way of thinking. While I very much doubt > we'll see a > full-fledged career renaissance, with nationwide > tours and everything (that > would be absurd from a man in Scott's position, > married with two kids, in > his mid-forties, etc.), I certainly hope it works > for him to continue > writing and releasing music, on however small a > scale that may be. > > So I say to Scott Miller: Thank you. > > -- > > ...Jeff Norman > > The Architectural Dance Society > http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:01:39 -0700 From: Dennis Subject: [loud-fans] anyone an adam marsland fan? I heard some of his songs on his myspace page and bought "You don't know me" based on that. Anyone a fan? What else should I check out? Dennis ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V6 #122 *******************************