From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V6 #26 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, January 31 2006 Volume 06 : Number 026 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit [DOUDIE@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit [2fs ] Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: Tall Dwarfs ["B.J. Skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit On 1/30/06, DOUDIE@aol.com wrote: > We did our Critics Polls over the weekend. I'd be interested to see what > you all think about Tris McCall's commentary on Carl Newman as a lyricist: > > http://trismccall.net/critics_poll_2005_results.htm > Well, I just sent this over to Tris: you ask, "what [is it] about this band that makes us pardon so much of their nonsense"? Hey, you make "nonsense" sound like a bad thing! Newman's on record as saying his lyrics generally aren't about anything except the sound of their singing, and that their evocativeness evokes nothing so much as the *idea* of clever lyrics (as you suggest) is, well, the point. The music is primarily playful, that is - and play doesn't have to have meaning, doesn't have to be about anything but itself. At least that's my take. It may be that I could puzzle out meaning from some of their lyrics if I bothered, and it may be that you might argue that "play" and "it doesn't mean anything, man" are excuses of folks afraid to commit to saying anything (and maybe that's true - but is it always true?). I'd say maybe we'll see, somewhere down the road: maybe Newman's playing clever, as a sort of anti-Conor Oberst (whose emotions are all over the page in 72-point bold type), and maybe (like Springsteen) as he ages (but he's already in his late 30s, no?) he'll pare back the jungly verbiage and say what he really means. Maybe not, though. - --- Also: I'm surprised Liz Phair's album didn't even make the top 50. I just picked it up recently, and I think she's way more comfortable doing the mainstream guitar-pop thing than on her much-reviled (but actually pretty good, ultimately) previous release. The damned thing's catchy as hell. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, DOUDIE@aol.com wrote: > We did our Critics Polls over the weekend. I'd be interested to see > what you all think about Tris McCall's commentary on Carl Newman as a > lyricist: Has McCall always been this much of a dick? I agree with several of his likes and dislikes, but then he rants in a superior tone about how awful other people are for THEIR superior tone. At least when he disses Pitchfork he has the guts to (kind of) name who he disagrees with instead of laying on the "people say..." and "everyone thinks..." handwaving. a ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:24:54 -0800 From: "B.J. Skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit There's a lot of fun to be had with the sound of lyrics. Sometimes they can be triggers--evocative of a way of thinking or compliment the music in a way that doesn't require direct meaning. I think a good songwriter should almost always be willing to hold onto something that sounds fantastic, even if they're not certain it fits intellectually. The thing I think is most exciting is the illumination of the artist's imagination--I don't know Carl Newman's stuff well, but what i've heard reminds me a bit of Richard Davies or Malkmus or similarily obscure lyricists. I like following that path of inspiration--hearing how images and phrases come together for them. And sometimes I think they capture the genesis of ideas--the strange and exciting swirl of things coming together intellectually, but before they all fall into place. The question I find hard to answer is what makes one person good at that, and another merely annoying or pretensious? The topic reminds of a conversation I had with Scott (one of rock's greatest lyricists) about David Bowie (rock's greatest lyricist)--there was some line on "Heroes" that he wasn't sure made sense to him, but he said it sounded smart and powerful and that it worked on some level not directly concerned with knowing what it meant. I'm guessing that it was a line that came to Bowie while writing the lyrics--something born out of that same swirl of ideas--that had the same effect on him, and it somehow felt too essential to the feeling he was trying to communicate to let go, even if he couldn't intellectually nail it down. B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:36:46 -0800 From: "B.J. Skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit > Has McCall always been this much of a dick? This made me laugh! I have to admit some of the stuff i've read of his had a similar effect on me, and once we even exchanged emails about something we _agreed_ on that felt like I was being chastised. I'm not sure how he'd defend that accusation that Sufjan Stevens is being emotionally dishonest, either. The point of that album is, in part, his ability to dive into something as distant and seemingly ridiculous as the history of the state of Illinois, and find in that pursuit real sparks of emotional and intellectual resonance (history being about people's lives, after all.) Looking for emotional and intellectual inspiration in unlikely places--it's a challenge that shouldn't be unfamiliar to anyone who writes or loves great writing! I'm not sure I trust the "emotional honesty" of The Fiery Furnaces more than Sufjan, but regardless of that, Sufjan actually wrote some tunes for his record. I usually love the FF, though, and he's another writer who's love of ridiculous nonsense lyrics often works for me. B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:06:16 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit On 1/30/06, B.J. Skaught wrote: > > Has McCall always been this much of a dick? [actually that was Aaron] > > This made me laugh! I have to admit some of the stuff i've read of his had a > similar effect on me, and once we even exchanged emails about something we > _agreed_ on that felt like I was being chastised. Oh, I don't know - I think he's less being a dick than practicing a loudmouth persona. (I guess that means it's not so much that he is a dick as he's being one. Hmm.) I mean, sometimes he does that; other times he's all thoughtful. For whatever reason, he's been more brash and obnoxious the last half year or so. I think it's one of those issues of tone: I don't take everything he says with 100% seriousness (and, from offlist e-mails with him, I know that at least some of this playing-with-tone thing is correct), so it doesn't bother me. I asked him about the incipient anti-intellectualism in some of the opening paragraphs of that essay - his reply more or less was that it was a response to a lot of Brooklyn-based artists essentially playing Big Swinging Brain: "look at me; I'm super-smart. My lobes squirt verbiage in quarts!" The essay probably would have been improved by an acknowledgement of that context. > I'm not sure how he'd defend that accusation that Sufjan Stevens is being > emotionally dishonest, either. The point of that album is, in part, his > ability to dive into something as distant and seemingly ridiculous as the > history of the state of Illinois, and find in that pursuit real sparks of > emotional and intellectual resonance (history being about people's lives, > after all.) That's a good take on it, Bradley - and I think it's what I respond to. He finds _Illinois_ shallow and fakey, but he liked _Michigan_: I suppose cuz Stevens is from Michigan. Yet A/B'ing the lyric sheets of both records, neither of them is particularly deeper (in terms of local texture, lived-in-ness, etc.) than the other. I don't think that's the point either - as you say. Looking for emotional and intellectual inspiration in unlikely > places--it's a challenge that shouldn't be unfamiliar to anyone who writes > or loves great writing! It's the paradox of form: restrictions can be freeing. Similarly, working from seemingly arbitrary bits of verbal detritus - history books, newspapers, etc. - can lead to more interesting, more creative stuff. I see this in my students' writing sometimes too: if there's a boilerplate approach to a topic, they'll gravitate towards it, but if they frankly have no idea what to say about something, because they've never read anything about it at all, they're thrown back on their own thinking...and often produce work that's more interesting, if rougher, than the more polished (but b-o-r-i-n-g) stuff that comes from the umpteenth paper on, I dunno, affirmative action pro or con. It's why sometimes free jazz strikes me as a bit of sham*: apparently, you're free to do anything but use melodies and chords. That's a bit overdone...but as someone (sorry, forget who) pointed out the other day, that limitless freedom is a huge barrier to overcome when trying to make powerful, memorable music. * some of the same problems afflict high-hippie rock improv, of course: even though those guys only rarely go anywhere near as "out" as the jazz folks, the same excessive slackness, and reliance on prefab riffs, scales, etc., shows up. My apologies to Phish fans... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:27:23 -0800 From: "B.J. Skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Tall Dwarfs > Finally, someone on list had Bathgate's > solo disc on their Best Of list- I didn't know it >existed until then. That was me. I also saw the Tall Dwarfs recently here in SF and they were typically fantastic. The Bathgate album, Indifferent Velvet Void, is great--like a homemade T. Rex album or something! There's definitely a glam rock thing going on--big, catchy songs and lots of loud guitar. Sadly, no one seems to know it came out! I even read that Flying Nun passed on it in NZ! How could they do that? The man's a cornerstone of the label's legacy and the album is as good as anything he's done. Shame. By the way, i'm really loving Jackie-O Motherfucker's _Flags of the Sacred Harp_. It's a bit outside my usual tastes, but a good friend of mine is drumming for them now so I picked it up. It's a spacey, improvised thing but it's built around really lovely, haunting folk/country-type songs. The long, extended improvised stuff sounds like Sonic Youth at their most dreamy and beautiful, but never turns into raw noise. I always thought JoMF would be really aggressive and heavy, so I was surprised at how beautiful the album is--at times it reminds me of Rock Bottom-era Robert Wyatt in its pastoral dreaminess and simple, folky songwriting. B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:08:54 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Poll/The Life Pursuit 2fs wrote: >That's a good take on it, Bradley - and I think it's what I respond >to. He finds _Illinois_ shallow and fakey, but he liked _Michigan_: I >suppose cuz Stevens is from Michigan. Yet A/B'ing the lyric sheets of >both records, neither of them is particularly deeper (in terms of >local texture, lived-in-ness, etc.) than the other. > > Haven't heard all of Michigan yet so I can't compare, but "Casimir Pulaski Day" is one of the most emotional, yet utterly tasteful songs I've ever heard. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:47:16 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: [loud-fans] video comp. update Just wanted to let you all know that the GT/LF video comp. project is going just swimmingly! All that's missing of the vids is "Jimmy Still Comes Around," so if anyone knows anyone who has a copy, please let me know. I even, thanks to Robert Toren, have the "I've Tried Subtlety" vid (hey, Gil, are you still that limber?) Also, a couple of kind listers may be loaning me some live footage to add in. Once I know if it will be 1 disc or 2, it's all done, cover art made, etc., I'll post details for acquiring copies (something along the lines of blanks + postage, or the cost of blanks + postage). Jen ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V6 #26 ******************************