From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V5 #224 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, September 30 2005 Volume 05 : Number 224 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... ["Stefaan Hurts" ] [loud-fans] I must be delusional [LeftyZ@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 [LeftyZ@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 [JRT456@aol.com] [loud-fans] New Pornography [John Swartzentruber ] Re: [loud-fans] New Pornography [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 [Phil Fleming ] Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... [Micah ] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 [Gil Ray ] Re: [loud-fans] test test.... [Gil Ray ] Re: [loud-fans] New Pornography [Roger Winston ] Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] New Pornography [Dan Sallitt ] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 Pt. 1, 2, or 3 [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 [Steve Schiavo Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:09:47 EDT, JRT456@aol.com said: > > No, wait, you've got it wrong, it's those 40 million Americans that are > > "carefree"... > > > > Closer to 41 million Americans, and what do you propose we do about it? How about a balance between socialized and privatized medicine? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:19:12 -0400 From: "Stefaan Hurts" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:48:53 -0400, I wrote said: > No, wait, you've got it wrong, it's those 40 million Americans that are > "carefree"... And before you reply, JRT, and no matter what people say about you, you will always be my cuddly toy. :) Toodlepip, - -Stef ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:50:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Toren Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... SHJs! From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... > Bush plans to help the Zionists steal world > hegemony so they can openly indulge in > drinking the blood of children. btw - notice how that stale old chestnut "you prefer Clinton blowjob perjury to Bush's War in Iraq" completely failed to stun anyone into silence? I suspect we're past the tipping point on that one - but the "self-hating jews" gambit can still kill a conversation or two - hee hee goddam you gil you troublemaker :-D http://www.angrylambie.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:52:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "don't mine me" Subject: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 Gil: >> Yeah! Way to go, Phil! (just kidding..this is my fault, but I gotta say that it's nice seeing SOMETHING on this list!) << Wish I could agree, Gil, but I'm afraid I preferred the silence to the same tired old invective. Kudos to you-know-who though, for inserting at least token musical content along with the formulaic reiterations. For my part, I think many you might emjoy the Deathray Davies' "The Kick and the Snare," and those of you who fondly remember The Grifters and/or Pavement could do worse than to check into Coffinberry's "From Now On." One of the worst band names I've seen this year, though, for sure. Gil, I don't spose there's anything like a release date for your rekkid yet, is there? Please don't write me back at this address; this is an outgoing-mail-only address, because addresses I use to post to archived mailing lists aren't safe from spammers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:54:25 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 In a message dated 9/29/05 11:59:02 AM, ninememo@antithetical.org writes: > Kudos to you-know-who though, for inserting at least token musical content > along with the formulaic reiterations. > Obviously, things haven't been reiterated enough for some people. Invoking Joseph Wilson nowadays is like bringing in Dan Rather as a character witness. And formulaic is not always bad, as heard on the Bedsit Poets' wonderful new folksy pop album. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:50:11 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... In a message dated 9/29/05 9:59:00 AM, stef_hurts@fastmail.fm writes: > And before you reply, JRT, and no matter what people say about you, you > will always be my cuddly toy. :) > Thanks, toodlepipkins, but save that for more intimate environs. Anyway, tell us more about your preferred plan for a balance between socialized and privatized medicine. You seem to think that President Bush made some kind of campaign promise on the subject. I'd certainly like to see the Republicans pursue one, and the Democrats have given up...after, that is, their first attempt failed as an embarrassing power grab that would've turned sugar into a controlled substance. I have no medically-related pop CDs on my desk at this time, except for what would be a strained Dr. John reference. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:49:00 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 On 9/29/05, JRT456@aol.com wrote: > Obviously, things haven't been reiterated enough for some people. Invoking > Joseph Wilson nowadays... And who, in this recent discussion, was first to mention his name? Without *actually* participating in this discussion, may I note that just because one disagrees with the Republicans, or with the Bushites, love for the Democrats does not follow. So all the refs to Clinton, to Kerry, etc. really aren't terribly relevant to evaluating the quality of the Bush administration. - -- ...Jeff The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:23:53 EDT From: LeftyZ@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] I must be delusional In a message dated 9/28/2005 7:36:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, JRT456@aol.com writes: That must be why the Kerry campaign dumped Wilson (including his website presence) right after the Democrats in a Congressional investigation signed off on calling him a liar. That's also why Wilson abruptly disappeared after months of beng the darling of the NY Times and all the network news shows. Sorry, but anybody defending Wilson now has entered into the realm of the delusional. Wilson is back among the living. I just heard a lengthy interview with him on a nationally syndicated radio show. Left ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:37:12 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 In a message dated 9/29/05 4:28:10 PM, jeffreyw2fs.j@gmail.com writes: > And who, in this recent discussion, was first to mention his name? > steveschiavo@mac.com, unless you can think of anyone else the poster was invoking when he brought up yellowcake. Also, to help you keep up, references here to Kerry or Clinton in the yellowcake discussion have all been pertaining directly to issues related to the Bush administration. We're still waiting for steveschiavo to come up with a Bush "lie" that wasn't also claimed by Kerry, Clinton, or other prominent Democrats in the past 15 years...or past 5 years, for that matter. The good news is that Joseph Wilson has just given a lengthy interview on a nationally syndicated radio show! I wonder if we'll ever find out which nationally syndicated radio show? Other good news...I dunno. I've run out of good recent CDs to invoke. Let me check out recent reissues. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:50:25 EDT From: LeftyZ@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 In a message dated 9/29/2005 1:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, JRT456@aol.com writes: The good news is that Joseph Wilson has just given a lengthy interview on a nationally syndicated radio show! I wonder if we'll ever find out which nationally syndicated radio show? I never said anything about good news. Just pointing out that he's hardly disappeared. Ever is now. The show is Ed Schultz. Well over 100 affiliates. Wilson has been interviewed regularly on them damn nationally syndicated Lefty shows for the past six months. He never "disappeared." Truth. Left ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:08:01 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 In a message dated 9/29/05 4:58:16 PM, LeftyZ@aol.com writes: > Ever is now. The show is Ed Schultz. Well over 100 affiliates. Wilson > has > been interviewed regularly on them damn nationally syndicated Lefty shows > for the past six months. He never "disappeared." Truth. > Look to the archives, and you'll see that I noted that Joseph Wilson disappeared from the NY Times and all the major news networks (and I'll add now that he also disappeared from plenty of other news outlets that used to adore him). There remain desperate Lefties who are willing to have Wilson on as a guest, and it's not pretty. It's only been a few months since Joe last showed up being interviewed on Air America...which is the same radio network where the hosts think Louis Farrakhan has a point when he claims our government blew up the levees in New Orleans. That's superduper delusional! I've noticed that Schultz frequently turns up on Air America programming. Is that the case in your town? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:47:16 -0400 From: John Swartzentruber Subject: [loud-fans] New Pornography On 9/29/2005 4:37 PM JRT456@aol.com wrote: >Other good news...I dunno. I've run out of good recent CDs to invoke. Let me >check out recent reissues. > Now that it's been out awhile, what are people thinking of the new New Pornographers? I'm not a record reviewer, but I like it, and I suspect it might be their best. It is certainly their most varied. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:48:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Reissues On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > Other good news...I dunno. I've run out of good recent CDs to invoke. Let me > check out recent reissues. A couple second-tier prog crusties are doing remastered/released/bonus tracks campaigns: Van Der Graaf Generator (all records) & Gentle Giant (IN A GLASS HOUSE through GIANT FOR A DAY). The bonuses are mostly live tracks. Audio quality is pretty good. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:24:13 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] New Pornography John Swartzentruber wrote: > On 9/29/2005 4:37 PM JRT456@aol.com wrote: > >> Other good news...I dunno. I've run out of good recent CDs to invoke. >> Let me check out recent reissues. >> > > Now that it's been out awhile, what are people thinking of the new New > Pornographers? I'm not a record reviewer, but I like it, and I suspect > it might be their best. It is certainly their most varied. > > Certainly their best for my money. The first had that irritating production. The second was more academic to listen to than pleasurable. And Neko isn't even annoying on this one. As for reissues, Warf Rat Tales unabridged, Avebury Records. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:33:08 -0400 From: "Stefaan Hurts" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:50:11 EDT, JRT456@aol.com said: > one, and the Democrats have given up...after, that is, their first > attempt failed as an embarrassing power grab that would've turned > sugar into a controlled substance. Considering what it does to little kids, it ought to be! Nope, I don't recall Bush promising socialized medicine either. I'd recommend CD's except I don't think I've bought any this year. Hope to make up for the long drought once I'm allowed to go to work. Did anyone see The Posies at the Black Cat? I didn't, but I went to the instore gig earlier that day. Didn't see any Posies there either though. =) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:07:45 EDT From: LeftyZ@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 In a message dated 9/29/2005 2:16:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, JRT456@aol.com writes: Look to the archives, and you'll see that I noted that Joseph Wilson disappeared from the NY Times and all the major news networks (and I'll add now that he also disappeared from plenty of other news outlets that used to adore him). There remain desperate Lefties who are willing to have Wilson on as a guest, and it's not pretty. It's only been a few months since Joe last showed up being interviewed on Air America...which is the same radio network where the hosts think Louis Farrakhan has a point when he claims our government blew up the levees in New Orleans. That's superduper delusional! I've noticed that Schultz frequently turns up on Air America programming. Is that the case in your town? Two glaring aspects of the way you communicate are laughable: Your lack of concern for the truth is only exceeded by your carelessness with language. I don't have to "look to the archices." In my post, I quoted what you had written. You should read it again. You manifestly did NOT " 'note' "that Joseph Wilson disappeared from the NY Times and all the major news networks": " . . . Wilson abruptly disappeared after months of beng the darling of the NY Times and all the network news shows." Moreover, even a casual reading of what you write exposes your consistent tendency to paint with a very broad brush -- to the point where your "points" should always be called into question. For example, your Farrakhan/Air America blast. Air America employs probably twenty regular hosts. Obviously, they have their own viewpoints and some are more radical (and frankly, sensible) than others. Instead of saying that "Air America can be doubted as a legitimate network because it employs a host (or two) who has expressed agreement with Farrakhan's wild claims," the language you used suggests that the Farrakhan thing is AA's party line. Inexcusable in what poses as intelligent discussion. Finally, your statement that "It's only been a few months since Joe last showed up being interviewed on Air America..." is again, simply untrue. I heard at least three interviews with him on AA in the last two or three months. And, I don't listen 24 hours a day. I'm sure there were more. Left ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Fleming Subject: [loud-fans] something to recommend... So far I can recommend two: OK GO - Oh No (noisy and tuneful... a wonderful mix) Cobra Verde - Copycat Killers (Turning "Let's Get The Party Started" into a marijuana anthem.... and the cover of "I Feel Love" is worth the price of the CD alone) Phil F. - --- Stefaan Hurts wrote: > I'd recommend CD's except I don't think I've bought > any this year. Hope > to make up for the long drought once I'm allowed to > go to work. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:58:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 Sorry! - --- don't mine me wrote: > Gil: > >> > > Yeah! Way to go, Phil! (just kidding..this is my > fault, but I gotta say that it's nice seeing > SOMETHING > on this list!) > > << > > Wish I could agree, Gil, but I'm afraid I preferred > the silence to the > same tired old invective. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Micah Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... Wrong. Truth does not have an expiration date. The reason we were given for invading was that were Weapons of Mass Destruction. There were none. If you think that this fact is a "moldie oldie' after a couple years and hence should be disregarded? Why are you still listening to Big Star? Funny thing, JRT you brag about the amount of taxable income coming in, conveniently forgotting your fronting for a government that's doing a nice tai chi on cutting back taxation. - --- JRT456@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/27/05 10:57:53 PM, > ggilray@yahoo.com writes: > > > > At least he didn't start a war based on lies. And > he > > didn't steal the largest budget surplus in U.S. > > history (thanks to said perjurer) and turn it into > the > > largest deficit in U.S. history. > > > The "war based on lies" line deserves respect just > for being a quaint moldie > oldie. (Or do you think Bush was lying about > Saddam's atrocities?) I'm more > impressed that a guy who's wondering how he's going > to retire also admires the > idea of a budget surplus. Be sure to enjoy knowing > the government's sitting on > your money while you're dining on Alpo. The good > news is that we're now > bringing in more taxable income than under Clinton, > at savings to you and despite > the Bush tax cuts that you probably also deplore. > > But we all support our LoudList Troops! We can also > all probably agree (in > addition to liking Jethro Tull) that The Posies are > always great as an acoustic > duo of Ken & Jon, and you can see them putting on a > free show at the fine > Manhattan record store NYCD on 9/29. Details at > nycdonline.com. > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:25:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 - --- don't mine me wrote: > Wish I could agree, Gil, but I'm afraid I preferred > the silence to the > same tired old invective. Yeah, well I do think I vowed not to go political here, a while back. I really needed to vent, and while I'm all for healthy discussions on such things, the discussion here ain't all that healthy. I'm a knee-jerk kinda guy, and I'll knee-jerk elsewhere when it comes to politics. No big deal at all. > Gil, I don't spose there's anything like a release > date for your rekkid > yet, is there? I wish there was. I really, really, double fingers-crossed have only 2 more songs to go. One of 'em should go quickly; no drum programming to do, just a sensitive old man with a guitar.The song is basically written, I just need to figure out the arrangement, which I plan to do in the next day or two. The final song is the title song - "I Am Atomic Man". Oddly enough, it was for the most part, the very first song I wrote for this cd! It's also gonna be the trickiest drum program. Lots of time changes and what-not, but I actually have most of it programmed. Hopefully this Saturday I'll record the drum track for that and the click track for the other, and that will get me on the way. Then comes art and mastering, so let's say - release date of....Sept. 2010?!!!!!! Nah, way sooner than that! Thanks for asking. Gil __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:47:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... - --- Phil Fleming wrote: > > I've heard new Scott tunes. > > GGGRRR... do tell! Well, I certainly don't want to give away too much info, because I think that should come from Scott and/or the label, but I will say this: There are Scott tunes, Anton tunes, Scott and Anton tunes, and covers. Joe and Kenny are the rhythm section, and to me, that means it sounds alot like Interbabe Concern. It is consistently great, and I think Scott and Anton are a match made in heaven. Gil __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:49:35 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] New Pornography At Thursday 9/29/2005 02:47 PM, John Swartzentruber wrote: >Now that it's been out awhile, what are people thinking of the new New >Pornographers? I'm not a record reviewer, but I like it, and I suspect it >might be their best. It is certainly their most varied. Like it a lot; have listened to it many times. Am looking forward to seeing them live next week. Has anyone caught them on this tour and have anything interesting to report? Will it be a good show? Latre. --Rog - -- FlasshePoint, yet another blog among millions: http://www.flasshe.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:06:25 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] test test.... In a message dated 9/29/05 9:33:18 PM, noahbrtn@yahoo.com writes: > Wrong. Truth does not have an expiration date. The > reason we were given for invading was that were > Weapons of Mass Destruction. > There were none. If you think that this fact is a > "moldie oldie' after a couple years and hence should > be disregarded? Why are you still listening to Big > Star? > > Well, that was one of the reasons...and, as noted, you can check out Bush's address to the United Nations to find out some of the other reasons that were given more time in his speech. And we've still found plenty of evidence that Saddam was cooking up some pretty evil weaponry. Why am I still listening to Big Star? I need something to do while waiting for us to invade Syria. Does that cover that big declarative "Wrong," or do you have something against Dirk Hamilton, too? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:13:28 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] New Pornography > Now that it's been out awhile, what are people thinking of the new > New Pornographers? I'm not a record reviewer, but I like it, and I > suspect it might be their best. It is certainly their most varied. I like it too. This one and the A. C. Newman solo record both appeal to me more than the first two. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:14:51 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 Pt. 1, 2, or 3 In a message dated 9/29/05 8:16:10 PM, LeftyZ@aol.com writes: > Two glaring aspects of the way you communicate are laughable: Your lack > of > concern for the truth is only exceeded by your carelessness with language. > Actually, I think we've all got pretty free rein to goof on Air America these days. You're welcome to call up anybody on their roster anytime and ask them to condemn Farrakhan. Let me know how that goes. I have good reason to doubt you'll find much enthusiasm from any of the hosts. Otherwise, I admire your ability to parse my use of the word "disappear" to the extent that I can't find the distinction you're attempting to make (or create). Also, I'll gladly concede that Joseph Wilson has again appeared on Air America since when I heard him last July. If I'd known, I would've cited it for laffs. Just saw the Posies as an acoustic duo, and that still remains the way to go with these guys. And while it's not a reissue, I recommend the new remake of THE DEVIL IN MISS JONES. The new 3-DVD set includes the original, which remains one of the great right-wing films of all time. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:55:25 -0500 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 On Sep 29, 2005, at 3:37 PM, JRT456@aol.com wrote: > We're still waiting for > steveschiavo to come up with a Bush "lie" that wasn't also claimed > by Kerry, > Clinton, or other prominent Democrats in the past 15 years...or > past 5 years, for > that matter. Eh? If Bush and Clinton both tell the same lie does that mean it is the truth? My argument is that the Bush administration lied about its motivation for invading Iraq. When something like 90% of your pre-invasion PR is about WMD and your real reason is regime change for a grander geopolitical goal, then you are lying about your real motive. Yes, human rights and other rationales got mentioned, but I've never said that the Bushies aren't crafty. The yellowcake letter was a forgery, the aluminum tubes were not for centrifuges, the chemical weapons trailers weren't chemical weapons trailers, etc. The decision to invade Iraq was made well before the PR campaign began to sell it to the American public. Bush, with the help of a military threat, had weapons inspectors going all over Iraq, but he cut them short so that he could get on with the invasion, because the invasion was what it was always about. - ----- And let's take a look at domestic policy. The Bushies simply will not tell the truth about what their real goals are. They really can't, because those polls they don't read tell them that the American public does not agree with most of them. "Fixing" Social Security is the easiest example. They won't tell the truth - that they actually hate even the idea of Social Security, so they try to gin up a "crisis" so that they can kill it and replace it with something else called the same thing. It's a kind of bait and switch. All administrations fudge and spin, but the Bushies seem to prefer a lie even when the truth will do. - ----- So, in addition to Twin Cinema and The Sunlandic Twins, the album from this year that I really like is The Secret Migration by Mercury Rev, which seems not to have Twin/s in the title. I gave Deserters's Songs a couple of spins when it came out, but I guess it just didn't catch at the time. But someone on the ecto list said that TSM showed that Mercury Rev is the new Yes, so I though what the hell and picked it up and it clicked instantly. Although there is some Squire-ish bass playing, I think it shows that Mercury Rev is actually the new The Millennium, and that is not a bad thing in terms of fun listening. However, I should not like this album, as the guy that reviews music for Salon said that Mercury Rev has become increasingly boring with each new release. - - Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:27:05 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] trollscraping 1, 2, 3 In a message dated 9/30/05 12:07:22 AM, steveschiavo@mac.com writes: > Eh? If Bush and Clinton both tell the same lie does that mean it is > the truth? > No, it means that you can't claim that Bush was behind a conspiracy without including all the Democrats who railed against Iraq's WMDs as fellow conspirators. But you also insist that the yellowcake letter is a forgery, defying the government members on the Left in both the U.S. and Britain who had to concede that Joseph Wilson was a con man. You'd be very welcome at the New York Times if you care to share your special inside info. They'd love to rehabilitate Wilson's reputation. Also, congratulations on figuring out that the decision to invade Iraq was made long before the Bush administration presented it to the public. Bush declared his support for the idea during his first Presidential campaign. It was no big deal, of course, given how much attention the Clinton administration (albeit via just talk) had already given to the need to move on Iraq. Did you know we had a war with Iraq back in the '90s? I've got the new Sire box set here, and I can't imagine a more useless collection. All these liner notes better include plenty of good gossip on Seymour Stein and his wife. Those two are straight out of a Judith Krantz paperback. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V5 #224 *******************************