From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V5 #116 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Sunday, May 8 2005 Volume 05 : Number 116 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] re: the short of it [eenie meanie minemeno ] Re: [loud-fans] Scott interview [Jeff ] Re: [loud-fans] Scott interview [Dave Walker ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 11:00:31 -0400 From: eenie meanie minemeno Subject: [loud-fans] re: the short of it Jeff: >> allowable, but no compensation is due. Once the phrase becomes constitutive or essential musically to the new work (i.e., the bass part from "Under Pressure" as used in "Ice Ice Baby"), then there should be credit, and compensation...and probably (although I'm a lot less sure on this) permission sought in advance. << You probably know this, but that IS more-or-less the standard for (c) use, and the debate centers on where the line between composition and arrangement should be drawn. You probably also know that there's something called compulsory licensing for (c) copyright, which means that an artist doesn't require permission to record another artists work -- as long as the requisite fees are paid to the correct parties, anybody can cover anybody else. There's (currently) no compulsory licensing for (p) copyright which is what's relevant to sampling -- artists from Chumbawamba to Marilyn Manson have had to pull or alter releases because the owners of sampled sound recordings either refused to negotiate to clear the samples (or set prohibitively high price for the use). I've come around personally to advocating compulsory licensing for sound recordings. I think a big part of the problem is that the laws were framed before the sampling parts of a recorded work become a common creative tool. To the best of my knowledge, folks like Christian Marclay seldom, if ever, wound up in hot water (partly because their work wasn't very commercial) but I also think there was a general perception that a "fair use" defense would be successful against claims of infringement. But until the late 70s, copying small parts of a recorded work just wasn't done on any broad commercial scale -- the laws were framed assuming that any copy of a work would be an *entire* copy of the work (and implicitly, I think, that excerpts -- for critical discussion or use in collage works like Marclay's -- would be shielded by fair use). DJ culture changed all that, partly because there was real money on the table for those who could demonstrate infringement. and Andy >> Always thought "minemeno" was Our Doug, but I could be wrong, << You're not wrong. Well, not about that, anyway. - ------------------------------------------------------ don't email the sender at this address; it isn't valid. (this address is used in cases where the email address is not adequately protected from abuses.) reply to list or contact via www.antithetical.org/minemeno ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:13:51 EDT From: A52boy@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] who to contact? (offlist) I need help on something. Doing my usual Friday night pizza shlepping, I delivered to a rest home, and, when I entered the building (the front door unlocked), passed an 80-something looking woman slumped over in a wheelchair near a nurses' station that was vacant. Her legs were covered with sores. I went to the other side of the complex with the food, and, when I returned, found the woman in the same place, looking up at me with a "Will you help me?" look in her eyes, and blood all around her feet. Some sores had burst open. I didn't know what to do, other than say hey, and she said "hey" in return. I heard over the intercom that a nurse was being paged to where she was, and she was approaching. The girls at work told me that they were bed sores, which I'd only heard of, but never seen before. They said this was indicative of a lack of proper care of the woman...not moving her periodically and cleaning her properly. I want to contact someone about this. DSS? She's in an institution, so that doesn't seem right. It was quite upsetting, and the image of this helpless old woman bleeding in a fluorescent empty corridor has burned itself into my mind. This rest home needs to be investigated. Something must be done about this. Nobody should have to suffer like that, be stripped of their dignity, and left alone in a corridor seeking help from the pizza delivery guy. Thanks, - --Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 12:40:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Scott interview - --- Roger Winston wrote: > Gil, I must hear this Stephin Merritt impression of > yours. Ok, here it goes..Imagine my head, looking down upon a plate of bbq ribs. Dismayed, I look to Claudia, and proclaim in a deep, exasperated voice: "Claudia! What am I supposed to do with this!" Gil By the way, my Merritt impersonation is based upon my Uncle Ambrose impersonation. Uncle Ambrose was the divorced husband of my dad's sister, Aunt Francis. After they got divorced (sometime in the 60's), it became obvious that he was about the most queenie-gay man my family had ever known. It wasn't discussed, he was just known as a very "prissy" bachelor. Flash forward to the early 70's. After my dad died, my poor mom was thrust into being the head of our household, with absolutely no preparation for dealing with such things as raising a hippie-freak-drug- experimenting-rock musician-teenager. Me. My sibs had flown the coup by then, and what was left was me, my mom, and our household maid (Hazeline), that was ironically, blind in the same eye that would later get injured in my head. Oh yeah, there was also our dog Caesar.He was about the most flea bitten, smelly, mess of a dog that there ever was. We all loved him though, and the poor guy had to deal with the half blind maid either stepping on him, or running him over with the vacuum cleaner. I'm convinced that he died of second hand smoke, thanks to my mom and myself. (To give you another look into my family, my mom and I would give each other cartons of cigarettes, and/or lighters for Xmas!) Anyway...Uncle Ambrose would come visit my mother and and I ever so often. He would bring a bottle of bourbon, and the 3 misfits would sit, drink and laugh and have the best time together! As mentioned, his voice was very similar to Stephin Merrit's, and the line that has stuck in my head for so many years, is this: "Oh Gil! You little bitch!", followed with his very distinctive laugh that was a very high pitched wheeze. He was my very favorite uncle, and though he was from my dad's side of the family, I'm sure he was my mom's best friend, at least during his wonderful visits. Gil Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:22:53 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Scott interview On 5/6/05, zoom@muppetlabs.com wrote: > > Geez - hatin' on Aimee much? > > To the extent I'd *assumed* the non-happening of the Scott-Aimee album had > to do with she who makes more money in one night than I (usually) make in > one year and who furthermore has been known to cry wee wee wee at her > treatment at the hands of the big bad record man, oddly refusing to lift > either finger or dollar to put the thing in the bins and thereby assist > one who never got the chance at a major-label shafting... > > ...then yes. I guess. Me, I don't begrudge a musician the right to make money at her craft. I mean, so she *can* get 15K/gig - good for her. I don't know what you do for a living, but if you knew you could get more money doing it, and in doing so weren't doing anything other than what you're already doing (i.e., Mann's just playing concerts, which she'd do anyway: as far as I know, she dosn't have to have an enormous military recruiting poster behind her head or anything to get paid), wouldn't you? As for the rest of the paragraph: well, I think her experiences entitle her to criticize big labels. But I don't think the non-completion of the record is just because, suddenly, she decided she didn't feel like it. And if it is - well, musicians decide projects aren't worth completing all the time; that doesn't have anything to do with how much they get paid. I don't think you're implying that the reason the Scott/Aimee project isn't being finished is that Aimee Mann is touring all the time so she can bring in the big bucks while Scott scrimps and starves (esp. since he's not: he's still got a good day job, no?). And in fact, Scott did get the chance at the big-label shafting, at least sorta: Enigma was bought or distributed by Capitol/EMI, so there you go. > However, if Scott tells us the real problem is that the producer went off > to earn fat paychecks from a modestly-talented offspring of a legend, then > provisionally I'll accept his version. Why wouldn't you? Okay: one reason is that Scott is diplomatic to a fault in publicly criticizing other people...and if the real reason were that Aimee suddenly said, screw this - I'm gonna go play a few songs and make fifteen grand - well, he'd be unlikely to say so. Then again, why would we suspect that that's the case? I've also heard that (like a lot of musicians) Scott may not be the easiest person to work with. I mean, a man who takes nine months to write one song may be just a tad more *detail-oriented* than some folks might enjoy... But I have no idea on that - just sayin'. > Except I still don't get why Ms. Mann can't pony up for a replacement > producer, or let Scott twiddle knobs, which he can do. My understanding is that the project was never formally abandoned; that it was always a between-other-work thing (particularly for Mann), and that perhaps if either of them wanted to continue it, a replacement, or self-production, might be an option. But the timetable here is that for a long time, Scott seemed to have no interest in recording or performing music (and he did have a daughter in there too - - takes some time!), and that this project was the first thing he'd started work on musically since the dissolution of the band. I don't recall that it was his idea, either. Also, I thought elsewhere he'd said he'd rather not self-produce, that he felt things went better with outside ears on the production end. But mainly: hey, if a musician making halfway decent music can make a living at it, that's great. I don't see why that's a problem for anyone, really. > While it's entirely possible I'm overreacting, the equation of rap with > "non-musical" chafes. I've lived with that "rap ain't music" argument > since 1987 and its larger argument "anything I don't like ain't music" > since roughly 1982. Yeah, I don't think he was all that diplomatic there! But I think it's fair to say that the musical virtues of rap are rather different from his tastes, and so to him, it might appear primarily (not necessarily exclusively) as "chanted poetry" with its musical qualities seemingly secondary to the words and the image. I dunno - I think there are a couple of rap fans here who've worked with him - maybe they'd have a better perspective on this than my speculations. > > I'm not sure which is stupider: that these idiots in Michigan never > bothered > > to determine that about the only thing "obscene" about the song is that the > > singer of the Kingsmen was clearly drunk...or that the reporter never > bothered to clarify that, in fact, the lyrics are utterly innocent. > > Never heard about drunkenness. I think Dave Marsh mentions, in his LOUIE > LOUIE book, that the singer (Jack Ely?) had to aim at a mike oddly > suspended from the ceiling, and I've also heard that he'd recently gotten > braces, which, as too many of us remember, certainly enforce simulated > drunken speech. Don't have the book; someone who does might fill in more > details. Ah - well, that's what I meant - that he clearly *sounds* drunk, and I think that (at least for the "frat rock" audience) that was part of the record's appeal. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 00:58:42 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Scott interview On May 6, 2005, at 12:55 AM, Jeff wrote: > Geez - hatin' on Aimee much? If you've got Quicktime 7, there's this, which is in that newfangled HD format and actually looks and sounds quite stunning, when you think about what the average postage-stamp sized monaural music video you'll find on most sites looks and sounds like... http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgallery/aimeemannlivestanns.html -d.w. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V5 #116 *******************************