From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #186 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, July 8 2004 Volume 04 : Number 186 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Roundup of review swap review reviews [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] Roundup of review swap review reviews [glenn mcdonald ] [loud-fans] TMBG [John Swartzentruber ] Re: [loud-fans] TMBG [Aaron Mandel ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:56:26 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Roundup of review swap review reviews On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Bradley Skaught wrote: > I really don't think Merritt's taking steps to conceal sincerity as much as > he's just not coming out of a singer/songwriter tradition in the modern > sense. Like Randy Newman or Van Dyke Parks he's writing more in the style of > classic American pop--the Cole Porter/Gershwin era. In that genre of > songwriting, the point is to tell a story/express an emotion, but the > narrative voice of the song is not assumed to be the songwriter's (in the > old days that's because the songs were generally written for musicals.) That > songwriter's ability to make an entertaining and moving song, _and_ express > himself, is the mark of a gifted writer. i should prolly just let you have the last word here, but i don't think there's any real contradiction between what we're saying ... i agree completely that merritt is working in a very porter/gershwin/carmichael mode, but i think (almost by its nature) that mode DOES involve ... for want of a better word, "sublimating" some quantity of real emotions/experiences into the invented context. the whole thing needn't be in the songwriter's narrative voice by any means, but if nothing in the song has any resonance for the songwriter, i think it's very hard to make it resonant for the listener (although it can still be entertaining and i guess i have to exempt the sort of hackwork that is resonant for some people) certainly in the prose world it's fair game for a certain specie of literary analysts to argue endlessly over the degree to which this or that character or event might or might not be partially drawn from life ... and i think that's one of the marks of a real craftsperson, that you can't tell what's "true" because it all seems "real." whatever that means. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:22:26 -0400 From: "Stefaan Hurts" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] lost another one... On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:33:59 -0700, "me" said: > i like hoegaarden too - i just can't get my head around the name. That's ok, Brianna, you just need to get your head around the bottle. ;) Damn, all this talk about Belgian beer has made me homesick. Or should that be beersick? Toodlepip, - -Stef ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:38:00 -0700 From: "Bradley Skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Roundup of review swap review reviews > but i think (almost by its > nature) that mode DOES involve ... for want of a better >word, > "sublimating" some quantity of real >emotions/experiences into the > invented context. the whole thing needn't be in the >songwriter's > narrative voice by any means, but if nothing in the song >has any > resonance for the songwriter, i think it's very hard to >make it > resonant for the listener I aree 100%. I think it's an issue with Merritt because, for the most part, his audience just doesn't have experience with that kind of writing. > ... and i think that's one of the marks of a real > craftsperson, that you can't tell what's "true" because it >all > seems "real." whatever that means. And maybe for some people Merritt fails at that. I think he's good at it, but I think it's alienating to people who want and expect some kind of direct expression. Merritt has become a beloved personality that people feel they know to a certain extent, so maybe they want songs that reflect more clearly what they know about him? B - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 7/5/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:09:20 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Roundup of review swap review reviews On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:38:00 -0700, "Bradley Skaught" > > ... and i think that's one of the marks of a real > > craftsperson, that you can't tell what's "true" because it >all > > seems "real." whatever that means. > > And maybe for some people Merritt fails at that. I think he's good at it, > but I think it's alienating to people who want and expect some kind of > direct expression. Merritt has become a beloved personality that people > feel > they know to a certain extent, so maybe they want songs that reflect more > clearly what they know about him? But how many songs can there be about hanging out at a bar smoking and writing songs? I think the great weakness of the singer/songwriter paradigm (and I'm not saying you're arguing for it; you're just describing) is the impression it creates that everyone wants to know all about everyone else's "feelings." (Is it cynical to put "feelings" in quotes?) I'd rather hear a mediocre song about how to weave a basket than a mediocre song about someone's broken heart. (Obviously, a superior song - about anything - is one that works even if you don't think you'd be interested in a song about X...uh, not the band, just a generic stand-in there.) - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: crumple zones:: :: harmful or fatal if swallowed :: :: small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:27:28 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: [loud-fans] endorsement? I think They Might Be Giants should endorse the Democratic ticket - that way, they could say "Two Johns for two Johns." Okay, you're right: but I've got nothing better to do right now. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: crumple zones:: :: harmful or fatal if swallowed :: :: small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:41:19 -0400 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Roundup of review swap review reviews > I'd rather hear a mediocre song about how to weave a basket than a > mediocre song about someone's broken heart. I'm not completely sure, but I think I might disagree with this. On the one hand, there are a lot more songs about broken hearts than about basket-weaving, so it makes sense to contend that a mediocre contribution to an underserved field is generally more valuable than a mediocre contribution to an overserved one. On the other hand, though, I certainly believe that "feelings", as you say, are more interesting and valuable to examine than traditional handcrafts, so is a mediocre contribution to a popular but important field more or less valuable than a mediocre contribution to an unpopular but unimportant one? There are meta-conversations on top of these, too, which always complicates things. Writing a mediocre song about basket-weaving makes the meta-point that you can write about anything, which is useful to state. But writing a mediocre song about your feelings may make the meta-point that self-knowledge is precious even when it's mundane, which could also be important to say. So I end up kind of on both sides. The writers I consider the best lyricists tend to be the ones capable of crafting stand-alone narratives with clear poem/story virtues quite apart from their musical existence. See, for example, Richard Shindell's brilliant INS-interrogation song. But at the other spectrum, I love Alanis Morissette's songs fiercely, "feeling" lyrics included, and she's a terrible writer in any technical sense. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] endorsement? On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Fortissimo wrote: > I think They Might Be Giants should endorse the Democratic ticket - that > way, they could say "Two Johns for two Johns." TMBG are putting together a benefit album for moveon.org, so they may well endorse the other two Johns. Posters on a certain lefty blog (Atrios, I think, but I forget) were all over this coincidence yesterday. More excitingly, the new TMBG album coming out next week is really good. Not entirely filler-free, but lots of good tracks from both of them (as opposed to Mink Car, which I liked a lot but ultimately didn't feel like a strong album overall due to the weakness of almost all Linnell's contributions). a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:37:23 -0400 From: John Swartzentruber Subject: [loud-fans] TMBG On 7/7/2004 2:28 PM Aaron Mandel wrote: > More excitingly, the new TMBG album coming out next week is really good. > Not entirely filler-free, but lots of good tracks from both of them (as > opposed to Mink Car, which I liked a lot but ultimately didn't feel like a > strong album overall due to the weakness of almost all Linnell's > contributions). I'm not sure if I should be excited or disappointed by this news. I thought "Bangs" was great, and "My Man" was pretty durn good, just to pull out a couple songs. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:23:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TMBG On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, John Swartzentruber wrote: > I'm not sure if I should be excited or disappointed by this news. I > thought "Bangs" was great, and "My Man" was pretty durn good, just to > pull out a couple songs. I love "Bangs" and like "Finished With Lies" okay. The rest of the Linnell tracks on Mink Car, I could really take or leave. Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't call any of them "bad", just forgettable. a ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #186 *******************************