From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #156 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, June 9 2004 Volume 04 : Number 156 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Re: loud-fans-digest V4 #155 [GlenSarvad@aol.com] [loud-fans] Quine ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: [loud-fans] Quine [zoom@muppetlabs.com] RE: [loud-fans] Quine ["Rex.Broome" ] [loud-fans] Keen(e) [glenn mcdonald ] Re: [loud-fans] Quine ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] Quine ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] self-censorship??? ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] Quine [zoom@muppetlabs.com] Re: [loud-fans] not Quine, Rush ["Michael Wells" ] [loud-fans] Reed ["Bradley Skaught" ] Re: [loud-fans] Reed ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] Cale, was Reed [Matthew Weber ] Re: [loud-fans] Reed [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] Cale, was Reed [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] Reed [Jenny Grover ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:29:41 EDT From: GlenSarvad@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Re: loud-fans-digest V4 #155 Yeah, it's hard to imagine a New Pornos fan being disappointed (unless you're purely a Neko groupie, as she doesn't appear here). It's less over the top than most NP stuff, sounding a tad like demos at times. Actually, I think it may bear more resemblance to Newman's old band Zumpano than to NPs. But the same hooky magic is there. Rog writes: SLOW WONDER, the new solo album from Carl Newman of the New Pornographers is due out tomorrow (under the name "A.C. Newman"). I was just about to order it. However, I've noticed that it has suddenly showed up on eMusic. And of course, I've already used up my monthly downloads (on things like the new Mission of Burma), which doesn't replenish until the 19th. I'll probably just buy the CD no matter what, sight-unheard, rather than wait for the 19th or purchase an eMusic "booster pack". But I'm curious if anyone here has heard it yet, and what you think of it if so? The snippets I've heard sound interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:43:27 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: [loud-fans] Quine Jeffrey: >>Quite sad. Of these, my favorite Quine playing is found on the Richard >>Hell album (which is utterly indispensable anyway) ... let me add to that my pitch for the vastly underrated second Voidoids album, "Destiny Street", which I think is out of print again, and kind of scary, but great and another good showcase for Quine. Completely worth seeking out. And yeah, Blank Generation... essential. Quine also shows up on the Dim Stars record with Hell, Thurston Moore, Steve Shelley, and whatsisfuck from Gumball. That's a goofy, fun record... >> and on _The Blue Mask_(which I think is generally underrated). Really? I thought it was one of Lou's most universally lauded solo records... if it's not, what is? I go back and forth on it myself. It sounds fantastic, but features a bit of "doth protesting too much" about Lou's then-newfound pastoral hetero domesticity. Sometimes the tension between that and truly harrowing stuff like the title track feels orchestrated, other times... just confused. I need to listen to it again to see how I feel this year. Anyway... very sad news. Weirder still, I haven't found a single one of my "real life" indie-alt-punk-music-geek friends who've recognized the name off the bat when I've mentioned this. Should that surprise me less than it does? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:17:27 -0700 (PDT) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Quine > Anyway... very sad news. Weirder still, I haven't found a single one of > my "real life" indie-alt-punk-music-geek friends who've recognized the > name off the bat when I've mentioned this. Should that surprise me less > than it does? If they're younger than you, and/or never read PSYCHOTIC REACTIONS AND CARBURETOR DUNG, then it's sad, surely, but perhaps not surprising. Since nobody's mentioned it yet, a fine Quine site, with substantial contributions from the man himself, here: http://home.earthlink.net/~stayclean/quine.html Wondering what glenn's making of Rush doing "Summertime Blues"... Andy "This is so much better than those overrated Beatles." - --"winoduck" from San Diego, California, on JULIE DELPY by Julie Delpy, from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00009LI6V/qid%3D1086718554/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-7767823-7951110 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:37:48 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Quine Me, then Andy: > Anyway... very sad news. Weirder still, I haven't found a single one of > my "real life" indie-alt-punk-music-geek friends who've recognized the > name off the bat when I've mentioned this. Should that surprise me less > than it does? >>If they're younger than you, and/or never read PSYCHOTIC >>REACTIONS AND CARBURETOR DUNG, then it's sad, surely, but perhaps not >>surprising. FWIW, they've all been about my age (early '30's) and would at least know *of* PRACD and/or Richard Hell, I figure. The one that kinda most surprised me was my friend who's heavily into Sonic Youth and Lydia Lunch, a guy who certainly has the Dim Stars album and borrowed the Voidoids records from me a few years back... several Matthew Sweet records in his collection, too, although I think that may be more his wife's thing than his. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:54:02 -0400 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: [loud-fans] Keen(e) I'm not totally sure, but I think this Tommy Keene b-sides collection may be my favorite of his albums yet. 20 songs, and I swear at least 17 of them make me happy the way "My Mother Looked Like Marilyn Monroe" does. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:47:22 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Quine On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:43:27 -0700, "Rex.Broome" said: > >> and on _The Blue Mask_(which I think is generally underrated). > > Really? I thought it was one of Lou's most universally lauded solo > records... if it's not, what is? I go back and forth on it myself. It > sounds fantastic, but features a bit of "doth protesting too much" about > Lou's then-newfound pastoral hetero domesticity. Sometimes the tension > between that and truly harrowing stuff like the title track feels > orchestrated, other times... just confused. I need to listen to it again > to see how I feel this year. I just recall it being overshadowed by the earlier, more popular stuff on the one end, and the "he's back!" blurbs around _New York_ and all. Plus, it was out of print forever (except in Europe). But hey - I don't pay too much attention to what exactly's being lauded - I like it, or I don't. I pay attention only to the extent to let me know whether there's something I might be interested in checking out. As to your lyric comments: yeah, but that's Lou for ya. He can be completely brilliant, but at times he just needs an editor (i.e., someone to kick his ass and say, Lou, you're not as smart as you think you are...). > Anyway... very sad news. Weirder still, I haven't found a single one of > my "real life" indie-alt-punk-music-geek friends who've recognized the > name off the bat when I've mentioned this. Should that surprise me less > than it does? Weirder yet: I didn't know until I read the obit in the NYT that he was a nephew of Willard Van Orman Quine, the philosopher. And I know his name because I was the kind of geek in college who was all into Douglas Hofstadter's _Godel Escher Bach_, where WVO Quine gets a lot of play. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised - "Quine" isn't exactly the most common surname. I also didn't know R. Quine had a law degree! - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:52:10 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Quine > > >> and on _The Blue Mask_(which I think is generally underrated). > > > > Really? I thought it was one of Lou's most universally lauded solo > > records... if it's not, what is? I go back and forth on it myself. It > > sounds fantastic, but features a bit of "doth protesting too much" about > > Lou's then-newfound pastoral hetero domesticity. Sometimes the tension > > between that and truly harrowing stuff like the title track feels > > orchestrated, other times... just confused. I need to listen to it >again > > to see how I feel this year. Ack...I once wrote a very long review in which I explained why this was Lou's most overrated album (and EVERY Lou solo album is overrated), mostly based on the following: - --for once, Lou had a great band, so people didn't notice that a lot of the music was dull. - --nostalgia, not quality, made people like stuff like the Kennedy song and "Heroine" and all the feedback on the title track. - --Lou is always full of hit, but here he made the unpardonable sin of pretending he wasn't, which leads to: - --I thought "Women" and "Heavnly Arms" sounded ludicrous at the time---now they sound like the most pathetic songs ever. anyway, I don't know why *I'm* protesting so much, but I hate that album, despite Quine and a few excellent songs (i.e. "Underneath The Bottle.") _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:04:06 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] self-censorship??? This was a typo: honest! >--Lou is always full of hit, Some song lyrics: The Dictators: "I think Lou Reed is a creep" The Real Kids: "The girls look like Lou Reed." _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up  now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:06:29 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Quine > Weirder yet: I didn't know until I read the obit in the NYT that he was a > nephew of Willard Van Orman Quine, the philosopher. And I know his name > because I was the kind of geek in college who was all into Douglas > Hofstadter's _Godel Escher Bach_, where WVO Quine gets a lot of play. I > suppose I shouldn't be surprised - "Quine" isn't exactly the most common > surname. There was also a very good Hollywood filmmaker named Richard Quine (DRIVE A CROOKED ROAD, STRANGERS WHEN WE MEET), who committed suicide in the 80s. Don't know if there's a family connection. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:33:26 -0700 (PDT) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Quine > There was also a very good Hollywood filmmaker named Richard Quine > (DRIVE A CROOKED ROAD, STRANGERS WHEN WE MEET), who committed suicide in > the 80s. Don't know if there's a family connection. - Dan One verifiable, strange, and sad connection: Richard Quine's first wife was the actress Susan Peters. Her promising career came more-or-less to an end on New Year's Day, 1945, during a duck hunt with her husband; a rifle accidentally discharged, leaving her a paraplegic. Wracked with pain and largely unable to work, she commited suicide by starvation in 1952. "Lo...I am with you alway.." Andy "It was like going for a ride on the back of an animated haggis." - --from GALAXY 666 by Pel Torro (aka R. Lionel Fanthorpe) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:40:09 -0500 From: "Michael Wells" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] not Quine, Rush Andy writes: > Wondering what glenn's making of Rush doing "Summertime Blues"... Not being glenn I can't say, but will toss in an opinion that it's not bad at all. Even better is their cover of "The Seeker" which is an absolute motherfucker live, and I can offer that opinion having seen it twice in the last two weeks on the current tour (first in Nashville, where I also had the privilege of meeting the irrepressible Miles over breakfast). They're doing four covers during the two set show, adding "Heart Full of Soul" on acoustics and "Crossroads" to the others noted above. I recall now that Miles said there was another fan or two onlist, and if they're interested in a full concert report I can be contacted offlist. Michael "I was really hoping they'd cover 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath,' but no luck" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:53:38 -0700 From: "Bradley Skaught" Subject: [loud-fans] Reed Yay, ranting! >(and EVERY Lou > solo album is overrated) When Aaron I completely agree about something it usually makes me think an earthquake is going to hit or something, but I have to say that after the third Velvet Underground album Reed has accomplished nothing of any worth at all. It's stunning to me, in fact, how painfully bad his work his. I used to be a huge fan--a real devotee--and then I woke up one day and it all looked unbearably terrible and embarassing to me*. I don't think there's anything Lou Reed does that isn't done better by lots of other people. I think part of it, for me, was that my initial love of Lou Reed came from the emphasis on lyrics. I've always been a lyric oriented guy and here was someone who was held up as "literary" and who put great stock in his lyrics. At the time I was introduced to his work I hadn't heard many artists with good lyrics, and I was probably more easily swayed by the hype surrounding his "poet of New York" mantle. Looking now at how utterly terrible his lyrics are (again, post-third VU), it makes think about how few of rock's truly _great_ lyricists achieve any acclaim at all, let alone recognition for their lyrical gifts. In a sense, Lou's just one of the very few to recieve the attention, and his taste for the "shocking" makes him more attractive. I still think his work on the first three VU albums is stunning--he was obviously a truly gifted and rare artist at that point. I find John Cale's awe at Lou's lyrical gifts (as reported in the autobiography) very moving and insightful, but either Lou only had so much in him to offer or he didn't know how to nurture it. I will someday compile _The Funniest Lou Reed Album Ever_, though, with "Egg Creme", "My Red Joystick" and the hilarious "Here Comes the Bride" where Lou puts on a really silly "street" voice and responds to the lyrics of "Sweet Jane". "Doing The Things That We Want To" will on there, too. Man, there's so many! But, man, I love Quine and i'm really sad to hear of his passing. love, B *I wonder if my thorough distaste for Lou really hit when he confused two Shakespeare plays on _Set the Twilight Reeling_! It became obvious to me that he was trying really, really hard. I think that was the last one I tried to like. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.700 / Virus Database: 457 - Release Date: 6/6/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:57:31 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Reed On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:53:38 -0700, "Bradley Skaught" said: > I will someday compile _The Funniest Lou Reed Album Ever_, though, with > "Egg > Creme", "My Red Joystick" and the hilarious "Here Comes the Bride" where > Lou > puts on a really silly "street" voice and responds to the lyrics of > "Sweet > Jane". "Doing The Things That We Want To" will on there, too. Man, > there's > so many! Not to mention his standup routine that makes up most of _Take No Prisoners_...along with "ghastly mellow saxophones"... Has anyone listened to that more than twice? I mean, more people probably get through Metal Machine Music than that (at least, I'd much rather do so, and have...) I obviously wouldn't go as far as Bradley or Aaron on Reed's solo career - - but certainly, your criticisms sharply point out the weaknesses that make that career so terribly uneven. I am, as I've said many times, less of a lyrics guy - so I can bypass a lot of mediocre stuff. Actually, I think Reed's better when he's trying (not too hard) to be funny - I like "Egg Creme" for instance... > *I wonder if my thorough distaste for Lou really hit when he confused two > Shakespeare plays on _Set the Twilight Reeling_! It became obvious to me > that he was trying really, really hard. I think that was the last one I > tried to like. Or uh, "William Secord" on "Sick of You" - the man tries so hard to be both "literary" and "well-read" but can't be bothered to actually get facts straight. My (least) favorite example: on "Last Shot," when he sings, "Let's drink to the last shot / And the blood on the dishes in the sink," he's doing alright there: he's clearly evoked both meanings of shot, and the detail of the dishes is a nice touch. Then, of course, he proceeds to ruin it utterly - by beginning each of the next two lines with "blood," as if he thinks his audience is too stupid to get the point, or that somehow the impact of that second line is increased (rather than evaporated) by repetition. 'Course, Bradley, I could pick a bit, and point out that you are (as I am) a John Cale fan - and yet about 90% of the time, I've got no freakin idea what he's going on about - and sometimes his lyrics are as clumsily absurd as, oh, "c-c-c-cabbage, c-c-c-c-cucumber...I will wear my thorn of crowns..." (Echo & the Bunnymen, speakign of sometimes painfully awful lyrics - and that's leaving out "Nocturnal Me") I mean, what is that bit about "galloping out of the darkness just like" - okay, think of two thousand things that might gallop out of the darkness, and the two-thousand-first will still not be - "furniture"? Usually, Cale's a lot more interesting musically, though... - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:19:14 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Cale, was Reed At 10:57 PM -0500 6/8/04, Fortissimo wrote: > >'Course, Bradley, I could pick a bit, and point out that you are (as I >am) a John Cale fan - and yet about 90% of the time, I've got no freakin >idea what he's going on about - and sometimes his lyrics are as clumsily >absurd as, oh, "c-c-c-cabbage, c-c-c-c-cucumber...I will wear my thorn of >crowns..." (Echo & the Bunnymen, speakign of sometimes painfully awful >lyrics - and that's leaving out "Nocturnal Me") I mean, what is that bit >about "galloping out of the darkness just like" - okay, think of two >thousand things that might gallop out of the darkness, and the >two-thousand-first will still not be - "furniture"? I think in this case the word was probably chosen for its sound rather than its meaning. I think Cale does that a lot--I mean, sure, there's a story being told in "Guts," but it's just a hook to hang extravagant phrases on. What's that he says after "An embarrassing denouement, n'est-ce pas?" Isn't it something like "Synthetic hyperbole"? What the hell's THAT supposed to mean? :) Who cares, really--by that point the song's grabbed you by the lapels and is screaming into your face, covering you with spit-flecks. You're worrying about when this madman is going to finally let go of you. I suspect strongly that a lot of his lyrics in that Island Records Cocaine Period came from free-association and picking words for the way he could spit them out in contempt or rage... >Usually, Cale's a lot more interesting musically, though... You can say that again. Bob Ezrin dressed Lou up in appealing orch-pop drag on BERLIN, but his music's never been all that engaging since. Most of Lou's music just bores me stupid. - -- Matt May I ask whether these pleasing attentions proceed from the impulse of the moment, or are the result of previous study? Jane Austen (1775-1817), Pride and Prejudice ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:00:23 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Cale, was Reed On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:19:14 -0700, "Matthew Weber" said: > At 10:57 PM -0500 6/8/04, Fortissimo wrote: > >about "galloping out of the darkness just like" - okay, think of two > >thousand things that might gallop out of the darkness, and the > >two-thousand-first will still not be - "furniture"? > > I think in this case the word was probably chosen for its sound > rather than its meaning. I think Cale does that a lot--I mean, sure, > there's a story being told in "Guts," but it's just a hook to hang > extravagant phrases on. What's that he says after "An embarrassing > denouement, n'est-ce pas?" Isn't it something like "Synthetic > hyperbole"? What the hell's THAT supposed to mean? :) Who cares, > really--by that point the song's grabbed you by the lapels and is > screaming into your face, covering you with spit-flecks. You're > worrying about when this madman is going to finally let go of you. Try being about ten feet in front of an extremely coked-out Cale performing this one live... I swear, you could see people back away from the stage... Also, the most physically intense playing of an acoustic guitar (on "Ghost Story") I've ever seen - that show was in Madison in the mid-eighties, I believe. He's also responsible for the most chilling bit of *counting* ever recorded ("Wilson Joliet")... Although he overdid the crazed-madman-destroying-piano-keys ending thing on that solo live album - it's pretty funny, like five or six tracks end exactly the same way. I do think Cale quite often wrote lyrics that were more sound, or singing syllables, than sense - and that's fine. Reed, though, is always straining to squeeze out Poetry - and that's not. If you're going to make nonsense, know it's nonsense. > >Usually, Cale's a lot more interesting musically, though... > > You can say that again. Bob Ezrin dressed Lou up in appealing > orch-pop drag on BERLIN, but his music's never been all that engaging > since. Most of Lou's music just bores me stupid. When it doesn't, it's more a matter of the playing and recording than the actual songs - which is why Quine's contributions to his work were so valuable (just to bring this discussion full circle). - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:06:53 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Reed The fun thing about Reed is his insistence that his lyrics are poetry, even as he makes the best case for lyrics actually being the opposite of poetry. Those of us who enjoy his solo work can still concede that his lyrics are painful when considered separately. In that same spirit, "What The World Needs Now Is Love" will be inducted into the Towering Song Honors in this week's upcoming Songwriter's Hall of Fame ceremonies. Now, those guys understand lyrics. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:21:53 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Cale, was Reed A quick Cale story that should endear us all more to the man: Cale's clearing out a warehouse last month, with the help of a former tour manager who now runs a church thrift store in NYC. There's an old viola case hauled off with the other discards. The thrift-store guy later finds that the case actually contains a viola. He calls Cale to let him know about this, describes the thing, and Cale says that it's the one he used for all the VU recordings. No, Cale doesn't want it back. I'd end with an eBay joke, but the thrift-store guy has more class than that. "Hobo Sapiens" is a really good album, too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:50:50 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Reed Fortissimo wrote: >I mean, what is that bit >about "galloping out of the darkness just like" - okay, think of two >thousand things that might gallop out of the darkness, and the >two-thousand-first will still not be - "furniture"? > > But I swear furniture has galloped out of the darkness right into me in the middle of the night when I've tried to get a drink of water or find the bathroom! Jen ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #156 *******************************