From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #108 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, April 20 2004 Volume 04 : Number 108 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] worst song ever ["Roger Winston" ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever [John Swartzentruber ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever ["Roger Winston" ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever ["Paul King" ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever [Matthew Weber ] Re: Live Albums (was RE: [loud-fans] worst song ever) ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever [Dan Sallitt ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever [Steve Holtebeck ] Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever ["Fortissimo" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:05:48 -0600 From: "Roger Winston" Subject: [loud-fans] worst song ever Sure is quiet here lately. Blender ranks the 50 Worst Songs (hits) Ever. http://tinyurl.com/26pss #1: We Built This City Too bad the whole list isn't given... Where does "Hollywood Nights" rank? Latre. --Rog - -- Distance, Redefined: http://www.reignoffrogs.com/flasshe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:19:49 -0400 From: John Swartzentruber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever On 4/19/2004 1:05 PM Roger Winston wrote: >Sure is quiet here lately. > >Blender ranks the 50 Worst Songs (hits) Ever. >http://tinyurl.com/26pss >#1: We Built This City > >Too bad the whole list isn't given... Where does "Hollywood Nights" rank? > >Latre. --Rog > >-- Distance, Redefined: http://www.reignoffrogs.com/flasshe > > > I'm sorry. The fact that my four-year old son is now singing "Who let the dogs out" bumps it to the top of the list. And if they don't agree and change their rankings, I'll record an endless loop of it and seal it in their car's CD player. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:37:03 -0400 From: "jer fairall" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever > Too bad the whole list isn't given... One of the links provided does list the Top 10, though: 1. Starship, "We Built This City" 2. Billy Ray Cyrus, "Achy Breaky Heart" 3. Wang Chung, "Everybody Have Fun Tonight" 4. Limp Bizkit, "Rollin'" 5. Vanilla Ice, "Ice Ice Baby" 6. Huey Lewis & The News, "Heart of Rock N Roll" 7. Bobby McFerrin, "Don't Worry, Be Happy" 8. Eddie Murphy, "Party All The Time" 9. Madonna, "American Life" 10.Paul McCartney/Stevie Wonder, "Ebony & Ivory" I don't get what is so offensive about #3, but I'm not going to protest the inclusion of most of the songs here. I also don't understand their logic in concluding that "Who Let The Dogs Out" and "Macarena" are novelty songs, but "Achy Breaky Heart" and "Don't Worry, Be Happy" are not. And I can only assume that these guys somehow managed to never hear "Dear Mr. Jesus" back when it was popular. Jer Support Care2 Email: Stop "scientific" whaling, the whale-killing loophole http://www.care2.com/go/z/12803 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:51:06 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:05:48 -0600, "Roger Winston" said: > Sure is quiet here lately. > > Blender ranks the 50 Worst Songs (hits) Ever. > http://tinyurl.com/26pss > #1: We Built This City Who knew that John Mayer was a "sacred cow"? Also, the extent to which critics (and fans, perhaps) nowadays simply don't get "'60s pretentiousness" continues to intrigue me. Something happened in the '70s (or didn't happen, more like) that shifted the way people looked at things, and suddenly a whole lot of ideas and attitudes were "pretentious." Granted, some folks were calling '60s ideas even in the '60s (the whole of Zappa's _We're Only in it for the Money_, for instance - then, Zappa was cynical about nearly everything - except, unfortunately at times, himself) - but I'm not sure why it is we can accept that different times held different attitudes...but somehow, "pretentiousness" is beyond the pale. What's so terrible about it anyway? Is it worse than the persistent and proud lunkheadedness of most pop-punk or pop-metal, for instance? I think for me, it's just too easy - you know, put on _Days of Future Passed_ and giggle at the ridiculous "breathe deep the gathering gloom" bit. But if such pretentiousness was a costume readily donned in the sixties, and that readiness is one reason for the ridicule, why the free pass given to so many other readymade attitudes from other decades? I'd rather listen to "The End" or "Sounds of Silence" than the xth-generation murky xeroxed post-grunge early '90s act any day. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:22:19 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever At 01:37 PM 4/19/2004 -0400, jer fairall wrote: >> Too bad the whole list isn't given... > >One of the links provided does list the Top 10, >though: > >1. Starship, "We Built This City" >2. Billy Ray Cyrus, "Achy Breaky Heart" >3. Wang Chung, "Everybody Have Fun Tonight" >4. Limp Bizkit, "Rollin'" >5. Vanilla Ice, "Ice Ice Baby" >6. Huey Lewis & The News, "Heart of Rock N Roll" >7. Bobby McFerrin, "Don't Worry, Be Happy" >8. Eddie Murphy, "Party All The Time" >9. Madonna, "American Life" >10.Paul McCartney/Stevie Wonder, "Ebony & Ivory" > >I don't get what is so offensive about #3, Not only that, but #5 is insanely catchy even if a good deal of its hook is ripped off from "Under Pressure" and #8 is a credible slice of I'm-Rick-James-Bitch! funk that Rick stole back from Prince, and it's not as though Eddie Murphy is an incompetent singer. And "I'm Too Sexy" isn't intentionally cheesy? WTF are these guys smokin'? yr friend of novelty songs, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:31:39 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever "Achy Breaky Heart" would be considered a modern classic if Jonathan Richman had recorded it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:48:59 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:31:39 EDT, JRT456@aol.com said: > "Achy Breaky Heart" would be considered a modern classic if Jonathan > Richman > had recorded it. Perhaps - but the persona of the artist (when known) is part of a song and its reception. Not that it's necessarily a good thing, but it's why it's why yr indie-rock covers of '70s AM-radio rock are assumed to be pisstakes - and if they're not, the artist has to strenuously argue about the great-song-ness of, say, "Harper Valley PTA." "'Achy Breaky Heart' by Jonathan Richman" would have come with Richman's back catalog and image, not Billy Ray Mullet's. I'm now trying to hear Richman doing that song - thanks much for that. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: crumple zones:: :: harmful or fatal if swallowed :: :: small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:12:58 -0600 From: "Roger Winston" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever Fortissimo on 4/19/2004 11:51:06 AM wrote: > Also, the extent to which critics (and fans, perhaps) nowadays simply > don't get "'60s pretentiousness" continues to intrigue me. Regardless of whether the sited lyrics are pretentious or not, doesn't it seem like they're judging based *solely* on those lyrics and not on the music at all? Hell, "Sounds of Silence" is one of the most gorgeous songs ever, IMO. They should've called the list "The 50 Worst Lyrics Ever". Latre. --Rog - -- Distance, Redefined: http://www.reignoffrogs.com/flasshe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:23:40 -0400 From: "Paul King" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever #3 is sucky if you contrast it against Wang Chung's other stuff. I particularly like the soundtrack they did to the movie "To Live and Die in LA". I wonder where New Order's "World In Motion" fit in? It certainly qualifies, ranking at least as high as Wang Chung, IMO. As for Madonna, I think we already expect tackiness and mediocre singing from her. I am not sure why she's on the list, since the list was supposed to weed out tacky songs from artists whom tackiness is expected. AFAIK, the intent of the list was to rank the songs of otherwise excellent artists who go just that extra step too far beyond their calling. Anyone heard of Jimmy Guterman and Owen O'Donnell? Some time ago, they wrote a series of books ranking the 50 worst singles and the 50 worst albums of all time. The same criteria was used by them also, back in the early '90s. Don't touch minor artists, The Carpenters, Neil Diamond, Andy Gibb, and so on. Instead, go mostly for the serious artists. I have the book here, and here is a sample list: TEN WORST ALBUMS OF ALL TIME (as of 1991): 10 YES - Tales from Topographic Oceans 9 THE GRATEFUL DEAD - Europe '72 8 THE DOORS - Alive She Cried 7 CHICAGO - Chicago at Carnegie Hall 6 MILLI VANILLI - The Remix Album 5 PAT BOONE - Pat Boone -- a notable exception to their rules, but listed for his tendency to "steal the thunder" of black musicians in the 1950s. 4 CROSBY, STILLS, NASH & YOUNG - American Dream 3 BOB DYLAN - Self-Portrait 2 LOU REED - Metal Machine Music 1 ELVIS PRESLEY - Having Fun With Elvis On Stage PJK > At 01:37 PM 4/19/2004 -0400, jer fairall wrote: > >> Too bad the whole list isn't given... > > > >One of the links provided does list the Top 10, > >though: > > > >1. Starship, "We Built This City" > >2. Billy Ray Cyrus, "Achy Breaky Heart" > >3. Wang Chung, "Everybody Have Fun Tonight" > >4. Limp Bizkit, "Rollin'" > >5. Vanilla Ice, "Ice Ice Baby" > >6. Huey Lewis & The News, "Heart of Rock N Roll" > >7. Bobby McFerrin, "Don't Worry, Be Happy" > >8. Eddie Murphy, "Party All The Time" > >9. Madonna, "American Life" > >10.Paul McCartney/Stevie Wonder, "Ebony & Ivory" > > > >I don't get what is so offensive about #3, > > Not only that, but #5 is insanely catchy even if a good deal of its hook is > ripped off from "Under Pressure" and #8 is a credible slice of > I'm-Rick-James-Bitch! funk that Rick stole back from Prince, and it's not as > though Eddie Murphy is an incompetent singer. > > And "I'm Too Sexy" isn't intentionally cheesy? WTF are these guys smokin'? > > yr friend of novelty songs, > > Miles ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:31:48 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever At 07:23 PM 4/19/2004 -0400, Paul King wrote: >Anyone heard of Jimmy Guterman and Owen O'Donnell? Some time ago, they >wrote a >series of books ranking the 50 worst singles and the 50 worst albums of all >time. The same criteria was used by them also, back in the early '90s. Don't >touch minor artists, The Carpenters, Neil Diamond, Andy Gibb, and so on. >Instead, go mostly for the serious artists. I have the book here, and here >is a >sample list: > >TEN WORST ALBUMS OF ALL TIME (as of 1991): > >10 YES - Tales from Topographic Oceans > 9 THE GRATEFUL DEAD - Europe '72 > 8 THE DOORS - Alive She Cried > 7 CHICAGO - Chicago at Carnegie Hall > 6 MILLI VANILLI - The Remix Album > 5 PAT BOONE - Pat Boone > -- a notable exception to their rules, but listed for his > tendency to > "steal the thunder" of black musicians in the 1950s. > 4 CROSBY, STILLS, NASH & YOUNG - American Dream > 3 BOB DYLAN - Self-Portrait > 2 LOU REED - Metal Machine Music > 1 ELVIS PRESLEY - Having Fun With Elvis On Stage So many of them are live records--those should have been disqualified as well. I can't think of many live albums that don't sound crappy, or that aren't "fans-only" items. And Guterman et al. may think TALES OF TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS is a terrible album, but I'd gladly trade the best of the Strokes or the Hives for the worst '70s excesses of Yes... Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley The drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty : and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Proverbs_ 23:21 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:57:13 -1000 From: "R. Kevin Doyle" Subject: Live Albums (was RE: [loud-fans] worst song ever) Behalf Of Matthew Weber >I can't think of many live albums that don't sound crappy, or that >aren't "fans-only" items. I recently picked up the Camper Van Beethoven "Cigarettes and Carrot Juice" box set, which includes the live album "Greatest Hits Played Faster." Most of the songs are from the "Our Beloved Revolutionary Sweetheart" and "Key Lime Pie" period. Many of them, particularly the "Key Lime Pie" tracks, sound much better live than on the original albums. Of course, this might fall under the header of "fans-only." A couple of other decent live albums, IMO: Joe Jackson "Live 1980/86" Joe Jackson "Big World," which was all original songs recorded live in front of an audience And, yes, The Loud Family "From Ritual to Romance" There are also the various 1970's rock Live albums that broke all conceivable records, but which are of dubious merit, such as 'Frampton Comes Alive,' 'Cheap Trick: Live at Budoken,' and the assorted Kiss live albums. Arguably, these were better than their live work also... Oh, and everyone in my "hood" owned a copy of Genesis "Three Sides Live." As far as lousy live albums go, I reserve a special place in my spleen for Roger Waters' 'Wall: Live in Berlin." I am not sure why it provokes such a negative reaction from me. Anyhow... R. Kevin Doyle Honolulu, HI ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:06:07 -0700 (PDT) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever > So many of them are live records--those should have been disqualified as well. I can't think of many live albums that don't sound crappy, or that > aren't "fans-only" items. Hoboy. Guess I have to come up with ten live albums fitting neither category. Try: 1. Question Mark and the Mysterians--96 TEARS FOREVER: THE DALLAS REUNION TAPES (one of my All-Time Top Ten Albums) 2. Talking Heads--THE NAME OF THIS BAND IS TALKING HEADS 3. The Who--LIVE AT LEEDS (pick your version, I guess) 4. Television--THE BLOW-UP (okay you *might* be within your rights to argue crappy sound, and I still haven't heard LIVE AT THE OLD WALDORF, but "Little Johnny Jewel" makes it plain to me why I bother living, and that doesn't even take into consideration the other twelve) 5. Image Publique S.A.--PARIS AU PRINTEMPS (the stuff from the first album becomes definitive, the stuff from the second album still burbles bountifully, Levine teases the audience with classic rock guitar riffs, and Johnny threatens to leave the stage) 6. Bob Dylan and the Band, BOOTLEG SERIES VOLUME 4: THE "ROYAL ALBERT HALL" CONCERT 7. Cheap Trick, AT BUDOKAN (you've noticed how the studio versions never get played on the radio?) 8. Elvis Presley, MEMORIES: THE '68 COMEBACK SPECIAL (though see also TIGER MAN for more of the legendary "pit sessions") 9. Barrence Whitfield and the Savages, LIVE EMULSIFIED (he changed his name because his original name was Barry White. Listed, and you'll see why Barry White should have changed his name to Barrence Whitfield). 10. Lou Reed, ROCK AND ROLL ANIMAL ("Heroin" at eleven-plus minutes, with a church organ. 'Nuff said.) Then we got 1969, and METALLIC KO...well, you get the picture. Of the Ten Worst Songs, I've enjoyed, at one time or another, every single one of 'em except #9 which I couldn't hum for you. I like "Achy Breaky Heart" better when the Chipmunks did it. I adored Billy Ray's acceptance speech that year at one of the top country music awards, in which, responding to "Achy" critics, he invoked another song of the era, Travis Tritt's "Here's A Quarter (Call Someone Who Cares)." Yes, O'Connell and Guterman got gone over years and years ago onlist. I remember the JDC--whom I suspect is no longer with us--dismissing them as "full of shit." If you're interested, Guterman, though not O'Connell, later wrote a bookend-book, THE BEST ROCK'N'ROLL RECORDS OF ALL TIME: A FAN'S GUIDE TO THE STUFF YOU LOVE. Which brings us, I suppose, to the forthcoming KILL YOUR IDOLS, co-edited by Jim DeRogatis (Christgau's "Turkey Shoot" meets the Canon Of The Sacred Cows), Andy David Carradine is grabbing me by the windpipe. Not softly, either. The two publicists in the room look alarmed, and I'm guessing that I'm bug-eyed. He holds on for what seems like a good amount of time, pulling the thing out some. It wasn't that I took the last Coke in the hotel suite. "There's no such thing as a last Coke," he had said, chain-smoking $38-a-pack English Oval cigarettes from a silver case. We had been talking about his climactic fight scene with Uma Thurman in Quentin Tarantino's "Kill Bill Vol. 2," which opened Friday. He'd said that by cutting another much-discussed fight between him and actor Michael Jai White, Tarantino was underlining the fact that Carradine had been hired as an actor, not a martial artist. I asked if he'd show me a move. I was thinking maybe the film's vaunted five-finger-heart-exploder-thingie. Carradine looked at me. "You don't really want me to do that." Well, I don't want you to kill me. "Something you can use ... if you get attacked ... " Abruptly, he leaned forward and grabbed my throat. "Try this one. That right there." On the interview tape, there's the sound of me saying something like "Khlghhh!" "That'll change anybody's mind," he says. Do tell. Is this guy nuts? In fact, the 67-year-old former star of "Kung Fu" who's just made it hard for me to swallow for the next two days couldn't be friendlier. Fact is, he's always had an eccentric reputation. But he's candid, laughs easily and loves to tell stories. "I've actually gotten rid of a couple of, like, redneck guys with that one. And a Turk!" he says, leaning back in his chair and ignoring my wisecrack about not needing one of his cigarettes to cough now. "A huge Turk once I got rid of that way. A guy who attacked me in Paris, in a restaurant ... - --Mark Rahner, from http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=carradine18&date=20040418&query=David+Carradine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:23:52 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:23:40 -0400, "Paul King" said: > Anyone heard of Jimmy Guterman and Owen O'Donnell? Some time ago, they > wrote a > series of books ranking the 50 worst singles and the 50 worst albums of > all > time. The same criteria was used by them also, back in the early '90s. > > TEN WORST ALBUMS OF ALL TIME (as of 1991): > > 10 YES - Tales from Topographic Oceans > 9 THE GRATEFUL DEAD - Europe '72 Fie and fiddlesticks. TFTO is probably 60-70 minutes of good stuff and 10-20 (can't remember its exact length) of fillerificness, but it no way ranks this low - unless, of course, you just assume that what Yes does is automatically awful. But that's not these guys' criteria. (If you're going to include a Yes album, on the grounds that it's so much worse than most of their stuff, I'd have to give the nod either to _Tormato_, or to any number of the latterday stuff...but by then, I'm not sure they count as the same band for much of that period, i.e., with Trevor Rabin). And _Europe '72_ is actually one of the better officially released examples of the Dead in improvisatory mode (for part of it - the '68 self-titled live CD is the other) and contains some fairly concise performances of some of their better songs as songs elsewhere (some of which never showed up in studio form. This is another one of those symbolic entries: gotta have a lengthy, "self-indulgent" jam band thing here. The thing about "self-indulgence" is: fans *like* artists they like to be self-indulgent - that's the whole point, that they're fans of the act because they like what that act does. That should be obvious, shouldn't it? Asking the Dead to cut out the twenty-minute space jams is like asking Iggy Pop to cut his hair, wear a nice suit, and sing hymns accompanied by a little old lady on a dusty old harmonium: it isn't what he does, so why expect him to do otherwise just because you don't like it? > 8 THE DOORS - Alive She Cried > 7 CHICAGO - Chicago at Carnegie Hall Don't know either of these, although I heard the Doors one years ago. Don't remember it at all. Is the Chicago one the bazillion-disc set, and are they being downgraded for the apparent pretentiousness of its sheer mass? Okay, so how about those 732 live Pearl Jam releases...? > 6 MILLI VANILLI - The Remix Album Uh, "don't touch minor artists"? No *way* Milli Vanilli is anything but a minor artist - I'm not sure the last word even counts. > 5 PAT BOONE - Pat Boone > -- a notable exception to their rules, but listed for his > tendency to > "steal the thunder" of black musicians in the 1950s. In what way exception? I mean, he's not rock, arguably - but judging by sales, of more than one album & single, he's a major artist, I suppose. > 4 CROSBY, STILLS, NASH & YOUNG - American Dream Is that the "hot dogs on the moon" one? And is this the obligatory "old, fat hippies" entry? > 3 BOB DYLAN - Self-Portrait Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what's coming next... > 2 LOU REED - Metal Machine Music Wrong wrong a thousand times wrong. If you don't understand something, don't understand how this can both be a bracing listen *and* the best joke ever foisted upon a record company, well, just go home, 'kay? > 1 ELVIS PRESLEY - Having Fun With Elvis On Stage At least it wasn't "Having Fun with Elvis in the Bathroom." Elsewhere, regarding the Blender article on the 50 Worst Songs, Roger commented that it seemed to really be about the 50 Worst Lyrics. Exactly - - most music critics know words, but they don't know music - so they analyze records as if they're really about the lyrics. (For years, _Rolling Stone_ was the worst offender here. Sorry, folks: people do not buy records for the lyric sheet. If you think they do, then ask what would happen if, say, Paul Simon put out a record backed by the Boredoms. Lyrics are important, sure - but they're still secondary to the sound. Otherwise they'd be poetry readings.) I sometimes wonder how non-musicians here certain unusual harmonies - I don't think they register as different notes so much as different tone coloration. I mean, the worst review I've run into on AMG is for the Wrens' first album _Silver_: the guy actually claims there are "blues" on that record. Wha-huh? There's not one single solitary blues riff or chord sequence on there, I'd bet - furthermore, the Wrens' tendency to spike up their harmonies with all kinds of clashing chromatic intervals would play havoc even with a I-IV-V progression (if there were one). Odd... - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Miracles are like meatballs, because nobody can exactly agree :: what they are made of, where they come from, or how often :: they should appear. :: --Lemony Snicket ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:32:58 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: Live Albums (was RE: [loud-fans] worst song ever) > Behalf Of Matthew Weber I like that. How about: Being for the Benefit of R. Kevin Doyle: > >I can't think of many live albums that don't sound crappy, or that > >aren't "fans-only" items. In general, I'd agree - but the exceptions are for bands that either radically transform their songs in live settings, or bands that tend to develop their material live (and hence release a bunch of live or mostly live recordings, often filled with previously unreleased material). But yes, the reason most live albums suck is that they're just more-poorly recorded, more-poorly played attempted reproductions of songs you already know, gummed up with screaming audiences - and you're not there, no matter how loud you play it it won't make you be there either. I suppose there's a marginal thrill to be had sometimes - hey, those folks can actually play those notes; it's not just studio wizardry! - but really, how long does *that* appeal? But then, I'm boring: music goes first to my brain and then to my heart, and honestly my ass isn't all that involved, and so I'm the guy at live shows sitting there nearly motionless and intensely listening...visually indistinguishable from the bored guy too drunk to move. Oh well. Speaking of which, I may be alone in this - but I wish live albums would cut out audience noise absolutely as much as possible - I mean, who wants to listen to the jet-engine roar of a thousand screaming people? And if you do, why not (a la Olivia Tremor Control) issue a second disc, to be played simultaneously with the first one, consisting of nothing but crowd noise? (Actually, given a bit of filtering, a low-volume simultaneous playing of _Metal Machine Music_ would have much the same effect...). (np: The Asteroid No.4 - _King Richard's Collectibles_) - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:38:32 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: [loud-fans] F7 I heng me hed in shayme (and perhepz joyn Slade): "hear" - not "here." O - and wunna theez: ) - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:01:09 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever > Sorry, folks: people do not > buy records for the lyric sheet. If you think they do, then ask what > would happen if, say, Paul Simon put out a record backed by the Boredoms. > Lyrics are important, sure - but they're still secondary to the sound. > Otherwise they'd be poetry readings. Sometimes I wonder. A little while ago I heard a live performance of "House of the Rising Sun," with that incredibly familiar opening riff that you would think would identify the song to any casual listener. But a lot of the audience started applauding when they heard the first words. Maybe listeners vary more than we think in terms of the relative import of lyrics and music. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 19:18:15 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever Paul King wrote: > As for Madonna, I think we already expect tackiness and mediocre singing from > her. I am not sure why she's on the list, since the list was supposed to weed > out tacky songs from artists whom tackiness is expected. AFAIK, the intent of > the list was to rank the songs of otherwise excellent artists who go just that > extra step too far beyond their calling. It doesn't look that way based on the top ten. It looks like they just went for the shooting fish in a barrel approach of going after the usual culprits. Last year BLENDER made a list of the 50 "most talentless music acts of all time" (http://www.blender.com/articles/article_466.html), which seems to have a high overlap with their list of bad songs. I don't really see the point in either of these lists, or "worst" lists in general for that matter. As far as Madonna, I'm not a huge fan or anything, but anyone who's been around for 20+ years hardly qualifies as a "minor" artist! > Anyone heard of Jimmy Guterman and Owen O'Donnell? Some time ago, they wrote a > series of books ranking the 50 worst singles and the 50 worst albums of all > time. The same criteria was used by them also, back in the early '90s. Don't > touch minor artists, The Carpenters, Neil Diamond, Andy Gibb, and so on. > Instead, go mostly for the serious artists. The one entry from that book I remember really getting my goat was their inclusion of Van Dyke Parks' SONG CYCLE. That album isn't for everyone, granted, but anyone who lists it as one of the worst rock albums ever doesn't have a clue about anything; SC isn't a "rock" album for one thing! They also listed THE UNFORGETTABLE FIRE for reasons I didn't understand.. Maybe it's too "ambitious" or something?? - -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:36:57 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] worst song ever On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:01:09 -0400, "Dan Sallitt" said: > > Sorry, folks: people do not > > buy records for the lyric sheet. If you think they do, then ask what > > would happen if, say, Paul Simon put out a record backed by the Boredoms. > > Lyrics are important, sure - but they're still secondary to the sound. > > Otherwise they'd be poetry readings. > > Sometimes I wonder. A little while ago I heard a live performance of > "House of the Rising Sun," with that incredibly familiar opening riff > that you would think would identify the song to any casual listener. > But a lot of the audience started applauding when they heard the first > words. Maybe listeners vary more than we think in terms of the relative > import of lyrics and music. - Dan Are you sure they weren't applauding the singer? If the music sounded just like, say, the theme to that seventies kids' show "Zoom" - only the singer sang "There is a house in New Orleans" instead of "we're gonna zoom, zoom, zoom-a zoom," would the audience have applauded in the same sort of recognition? Or would they have assumed this was a song they didn't quite know - although some of them probably would have thought the music somewhat familiar (but not the *same* familiar)? I suspect what was going on was a lot of people thinking, hmm, I know this song...but the lyrics cemented the association. And I think to any under-30 audience, that "incredibly familiar opening riff" is a lot less familiar than we old farts think. Plus, it's pretty close to some other songs' riffs anyway, isn't it? I'm not saying people pay *no* attention to lyrics, or even that they're unimportant - I'm just saying that if they were foremost, it would matter a lot less what music came with the lyrics. This may be true in *some* genres - probably, some folk music, for instance - but I don't think it is in rock. Whatever the hell "rock" is these days. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #108 *******************************