From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #68 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Saturday, March 6 2004 Volume 04 : Number 068 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Zappa, Zappa, Zappa [rlewis@nethere.com (Russ Lewis)] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Phil Fleming ] Re: [loud-fans] Zappa, Zappa, Zappa ["Fortissimo" ] [loud-fans] Gil's Game Theory Musical Recollections [Robert Toren ] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Tim Walters" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Fortissimo" ] [loud-fans] That prince of foods... ["Fortissimo" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:09:13 -0800 From: rlewis@nethere.com (Russ Lewis) Subject: [loud-fans] Zappa, Zappa, Zappa I've been a Frank Zappa fan since I was in sixth grade (1969 onward), but I do have to admit that he lost me after _Apostrophe;_ after that I find that his music became so complex that it takes a musicologist to follow what he was doing. A sociology teacher of mine recently commented about him, though, "As time goes on, I find that I appreciate his interviews more than his music." My feelings too. Forget the 60 or so records, just look up his old interviews, especially his final interview in _Playboy_ (April 1993). He was intelligent, well spoken, had an opinion on everything, and didn't care who liked it. Always a great interview. And lately I've been seriously rediscovering him and my appreciation for him, so it's been fascinating to see how his mere mention on this list has hit an open nerve. It's funny, but 35 years later I'm only beginning to understand what he was doing musically. This comes largely from a 43-page article in the winter 2001 issue of _Perspectives of New Music_ (vol. 39, issue 1, p. 118) entitled "Form and the Concept Album: Aspects of Modernism in Frank Zappa's Early Releases," which analyzes very specifically how Stravinsky and Varese influenced Zappa's earliest stuff, _Lumpy Gravy_ especially. Anyone who lives near a good university library or has access to the EBSCO database is well advised to look up a copy of that article; anyone else, well, maybe I can e-mail you a PDF of it. It's hella long though. Scott Tissue El Cajon, Calif. (FZ's former residence) If you want to get laid, go to college, but if you want an education, go to the library. -- Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:57:22 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:35:25 -0800 (PST), "Phil Fleming" said: > ZOOT ALLURES is > worth its price for "Black Napkins" leading into "The > Torture Never Stops". Not bad for what was originally > his major label debut. I seem to recall liking "Black Napkins" - but "The Torture Never Stops" is aptly titled: nine minutes of super-s-l-o-w blues dirge with FZ using that low stupid-guy voice through most of it. Although the phrase "the night of the iron sausage" has its virtues. Both records have some great > guitar work on them. Ah. One of the problems with much of Zappa's post-'75 or so material is that he fell totally in love with his own guitar playing. Yes, he's a fine player - but Jesus H. Christ on a stick, how many minutes of guitar soloing - with his guitar mixed *way* above every other instrument - do we need? (Answer: I think there are like ten full CDs mostly of guitar solos.) JOE'S GARAGE is a really cool > concept record... a bit overblown, but great > nonetheless. Sigh...this is where he really started needing an editor. Originally, this was three LPs...and my guess is the best of it could readily be accommodated on a single CD. Don't even get me started on _Thing-Fish_... > I once saw on some documentary that FZ had a vault > with hundreds of hours of unreleased music. The Zappa > Family Trust said that a lot more would be coming out > in the coming years (the documentary was probably 1996 > or so), but they seems to be taking their sweet time > with it. Really? Seems to me there've been probably 10-20 new titles released since Zappa's death ten years ago - mostly live stuff (and I'm not counting those odd "Joe Musician's Favorite Zappa Songs" compilations that have sprung up in the last year or so: imagine, the bass guy in Primus was a Zappa fan - who woulda guessed?). - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:39:34 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz - --- Fortissimo wrote: > Ah. One of the problems with much of Zappa's > post-'75 or so material is > that he fell totally in love with his own guitar > playing. Yes, he's a > fine player - but Jesus H. Christ on a stick, how > many minutes of guitar > soloing - with his guitar mixed *way* above every > other instrument - do > we need? (Answer: I think there are like ten full > CDs mostly of guitar > solos.) I think there's something like two 3-disc sets of just guitar noodling. I'm not that much of a guitar snob to want those type of things. > Really? Seems to me there've been probably 10-20 new > titles released > since Zappa's death ten years ago - mostly live > stuff (and I'm not > counting those odd "Joe Musician's Favorite Zappa > Songs" compilations > that have sprung up in the last year or so: imagine, > the bass guy in > Primus was a Zappa fan - who woulda guessed?). Almost every release since his death has been a repackaging of previously released material. LATHER was re-assembled from SLEEP DIRT, STUDIO TAN, and ORCHESTRAL FAVORITES and little bits of JOE'S GARAGE, and SHIEK YERBOUTI. STRICTLY COMMERCIAL was a 'greatest hits' type package. STRICTLY GENTEEL was a best of compilation of his orchestral work. There's CHEEP THRILLS and SON OF CHEEP THRILLS which were budget priced introductions to FZ's work. "new" releases: CIVILIZATION PHASE III LOST EPISODES MYSTERY DISC THE CUCAMONGA YEARS EVERYTHING IS HEALING NICELY FZ:OZ HALLOWEEN The last 3 are live recordings. While technically 'unreleased', I was hoping for more studio material. CUCAMONGA YEARS and MYSTERY DISC both contain material recorded in the late 50s-mid 60's before he signed to Verve. I'm not sure if that was stuff that had seen release back then. Phil F. NP: nothing... wish I had something to play! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:35:56 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Zappa, Zappa, Zappa On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:09:13 -0800, "Russ Lewis" said: > It's funny, but 35 years later I'm only beginning to understand what he > was > doing musically. This comes largely from a 43-page article in the winter > 2001 issue of _Perspectives of New Music_ (vol. 39, issue 1, p. 118) > entitled "Form and the Concept Album: Aspects of Modernism in Frank > Zappa's > Early Releases," which analyzes very specifically how Stravinsky and > Varese > influenced Zappa's earliest stuff, _Lumpy Gravy_ especially. Anyone who > lives near a good university library or has access to the EBSCO database > is > well advised to look up a copy of that article; anyone else, well, maybe > I > can e-mail you a PDF of it. It's hella long though. Thanks for the tip. For some reason, your heading reminded me of my longstanding desire to invent some sort of device designed to quickly cook and brown hot dogs as if over an open fire but without the inconvenient open fire. It would be called, of course, the "Frank Zapper." (Sorry...) - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Miracles are like meatballs, because nobody can exactly agree :: what they are made of, where they come from, or how often :: they should appear. :: --Lemony Snicket ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:45:46 -0600 From: "Keegstra, Russell " Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Zappa, Zappa, Zappa Jeff: >some sort of device designed to quickly cook and brown hot >dogs as if over an open fire but without the inconvenient >open fire. It would be called, of course, the "Frank >Zapper." Not to be confused with the gizmo where you "plug" a hot dog in to electrodes at each end and cooks by passing current through it. I don't think I've seen one of these in a long time, so it may be a concept that came and went. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:23:41 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: [loud-fans] Abe Simpson live? > http://tinyurl.com/2j93y > > (Things not to do at the salad bar in a retirement home.) - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:54:09 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Toren Subject: [loud-fans] Gil's Game Theory Musical Recollections Here are Gil's very enjoyable & informative recollections & comments re Game Theory recordings - originally shared on this list just about one year ago. Robert http://www.angrylambie.com/Gil's%20GT%20recollections.htm ===== http://www.angrylambie.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:20:57 -0800 (PST) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz > Anyway, thanks to everyone for suggestions and opinions. If anyone has > more to say I would love to hear from you, but I suspect we should take it > offlist. Offlist? On this list? Not while I'm still recovering from my hernia repair! A few points I haven't seen elsewhere: hope Tim hasn't made it to the store yet, because you need the *second* CD edition of WE'RE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY. For the first one, Zappa re-recorded rhythm tracks, messed with tempos, and generally stomped mudholes in a practically perfect record. The fans howled so much he had to make good with a new reissue. The recitif at the end of "Who Needs The Peace Corps" works, I think, as a Hippie Pledge of Allegiance, recited with the same rote disinterest many of us brought to the original pledge in grade school home room. And while hippies get it in the neck on MONEY (Zappa commenting at the time that "freedom" was just another word for the Elks Club with swapped-out funny headgear and shibboleths), don't forget the portraits of clueless parents, ("Bow Tie Daddy," "Mom And Dad"), maurading cops ("Concentration Moon"), and two glimpses of what a better world *could* involve ("Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance" as the good news, "Mother People" as the cold side of the same coin, the desire not to speak falsely, as Jon Landau by way of Dylan would have it). FRANK ZAPPA MEETS THE MOTHERS OF PREVENTION was a favorite of mine, in no small part for "Porn Wars," Synclavier'd mincemeat of the PMRS hearings ("the next witness is John Denver"--and so it was). Volume Three of the live series YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON STAGE ANYMORE features Ike Willis yelling "Hi-ho Silver!" for no apparent reason, at random intervals, reducing the usually-note-perfect Zappa to a giggling puddle (from a show at Seattle's Paramount, no less). STUDIO TAN's "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary" combines Horatio Alger and fragmentation for Zappa's finest mini-opera. And if you like the pre-screwed-and-chopped "we're either mentally handicapped or huffers" voices, they're all over THE MAN FROM UTOPIA, where the allegedly-nonfictional "Jazz Discharge Party Hats" serves up the sleaze, sure, but other topics include John Agar movies, hazardous cookware, and the intersection of cognition with white crystalline alkaloid. Surprised to see so much hatin' on the man's guitar playing. I never bought the SHUT UP 'N PLAY YER GUITAR series (that's three records, gentlemen, not ten), but certain parts of SHEIK YERBOUTI, at least, bear out, that with or without overdubs, with or without Steve Vai, Elliott Ingber, or Adrian Belew chasing him, the man was in the ranks of the immortals. I mean it. Next you'll tell me Thomas Pynchon did a guest voice on "The Simpsons," Andy Counting down my 100 favorite albums of all time... Wednesday, March 03, 2004 Posted 5:29 PM by Anthony #55) Prince Paul - A Prince Among Thieves (released in 1999, I bought it on CD that year. The rave reviews and my appreciation of Handsome Boy Modeling School, who I don't like as much now, got me to ignore my rockist wariness about buying rap albums, which I considered quite filler-happy) Everybody hates rap skits, but thats mainly because listeners (and the rappers making them) havent realized the cinematic potential within. Psychoanalysis (What Is It?), the solo debut from De La Soul producer, was filled with innovative skits, and his follow up, A Prince Among Thieves, was a rap musical, complete with a coherent storyline (a tragedy about two aspiring rappers) and an all-star cast. Paul smartly used unknowns Sha & Breeze for the lead roles - theyre strong enough to compete with the presence of folks like Kool Keith (as an unsurprisingly surreal weapons expert) and Big Daddy Kane (as the unsurprisingly pimptacular Count Mackula), but dont bring the baggage of fame. The consistency of this album is startling when you consider its breadth. The music is hook-heavy, the jokes are rich (check out the slow jam and the Chris Rock cameo) and More Than U Know may well be the best De La Soul song of all time, with the trio delivering incisive crack metaphors over a beat that Puff Daddy would have rode to the top 10. Prince Paul wanted to turn this album into a movie, but I think the stage is where this album belongs. Its so good, I want to see people interact with the show. - --from www.anthonyisright.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:39:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 zoom@muppetlabs.com wrote: > A few points I haven't seen elsewhere: hope Tim hasn't made it to the > store yet, because you need the *second* CD edition of WE'RE ONLY IN IT > FOR THE MONEY. For the first one, Zappa re-recorded rhythm tracks, messed > with tempos, and generally stomped mudholes in a practically perfect > record. The fans howled so much he had to make good with a new reissue. On this point, Andy & I disagree. The first remaster was my first exposure to the album, and I really like the drums. I bought the second remaster, and it sounded, well, weaker - the drums weren't as prominent, which I liked about the first one. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:01:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Tim Walters" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz zoom@muppetlabs.com wrote: > A few points I haven't seen elsewhere: hope Tim hasn't made it to the > store yet, because you need the *second* CD edition of WE'RE ONLY IN IT > FOR THE MONEY. Any distinguishing marks? - -- THE DOUBTFUL PALACE Free exquisite music http://www.doubtfulpalace.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:01:54 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 zoom@muppetlabs.com wrote: > A few points I haven't seen elsewhere: hope Tim hasn't made it to the > store yet, because you need the *second* CD edition of WE'RE ONLY IN IT > FOR THE MONEY. How can one tell which is which? Mine is copyright 1968, 1995 Zappa Family Trust, so it must postdate anything the man himself did or undid to the master... a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:09:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Tim Walters wrote: > > A few points I haven't seen elsewhere: hope Tim hasn't made it to the > > store yet, because you need the *second* CD edition of WE'RE ONLY IN IT > > FOR THE MONEY. > > Any distinguishing marks? The first edition is a 2-Fer with LUMPY GRAVY and has the SGT. PEPPER parody cover. The second is standalone, and has FZ on the cover in a dress. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:31:21 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:20:57 -0800 (PST), zoom@muppetlabs.com said: > The recitif at the end of "Who Needs The Peace Corps" works, I think, as > a > Hippie Pledge of Allegiance, recited with the same rote disinterest many > of us brought to the original pledge in grade school home room. And > while > hippies get it in the neck on MONEY (Zappa commenting at the time that > "freedom" was just another word for the Elks Club with swapped-out funny > headgear and shibboleths), don't forget the portraits of clueless > parents, > ("Bow Tie Daddy," "Mom And Dad"), maurading cops ("Concentration Moon"), > and two glimpses of what a better world *could* involve ("Take Your > Clothes Off When You Dance" as the good news, "Mother People" as the cold > side of the same coin, the desire not to speak falsely, as Jon Landau by > way of Dylan would have it). One should also note that Zappa was capable of extraordinarily pretty music when the mood struck him: "Mom and Dad" is also a just plain lovely tune. > Surprised to see so much hatin' on the man's guitar playing. I never > bought the SHUT UP 'N PLAY YER GUITAR series (that's three records, > gentlemen, not ten), but certain parts of SHEIK YERBOUTI, at least, bear > out, that with or without overdubs, with or without Steve Vai, Elliott > Ingber, or Adrian Belew chasing him, the man was in the ranks of the > immortals. I mean it. It weren't hatin - it were just that, hey, do we need twenty-seven *hours* of it? I agree he really is an excellent guitarist, with a distinctive tone and rhythmic approach, very fluid to boot - but for me at least there's only so much shutting up and playing of guitar only I want to hear. I also kind of dislike that he mixed the rest of his (invariably excellent) band so low: there was actually some interesting stuff going on behind the solos, but not so's you can actually *hear* it. I think it's a shame the Ensemble Modern and FZ weren't able to hook up earlier - I really think that for the last decade or so of his life, Zappa was playing rock-oriented stuff solely to pay the bills and was way more interested in composition, both on Synclavier and (if he'd had a decent, sympathetic orchestra...and had some billionaire endowed him with resources to fiddle with it) for orchestra. > Next you'll tell me Thomas Pynchon did a guest voice on "The Simpsons," Unrelated, but let me be among the first to propose a worldwide ban on jokes revolving around prison decoration, 'kay? - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:36:28 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: [loud-fans] That prince of foods... On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:39:43 -0800 (PST), "Joseph M. Mallon" said: (re the re-recorded WOIIFTM) > On this point, Andy & I disagree. The first remaster was my first > exposure to the album, and I really like the drums. I bought the second > remaster, and it sounded, well, weaker - the drums weren't as prominent, > which I liked about the first one. I didn't mind the drums that much - but the bass was just grossly inappropriate. I mean, we're talking a record that was recorded in 1968 - and even allowing for Zappa's sonic world being considerably more advanced than most folks', the guitar sounds, etc., are of that era - and you plop a big fat round gooshy '80s fretless bass in the middle of it, and it just is sonically wrong. I wouldn't have minded the rerecording had he used an appropriate bass sound, and mixed it only *slightly* more prominently than a real '68-era bass would have been - but what it sounds like to me is I'm listening to the record and my roommate the bass player insists on playing along with his amp turned up too loud. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:46:36 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] mitchells! (Thank you very much, Aaron, for making me think of Joe Don Baker's naked back.) On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:09:06 -0500 (EST), "Aaron Mandel" said: > A while ago I wrote about my joy at finding that The Mitchells had > released an album while I wasn't looking. I got it in the mail a few > weeks > ago and I am *thrilled* to say that it's everything I'd hoped (which > their > first album largely was not). > > http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mitchells This sounds pretty fine to me - it's on my list! Thanks. ps: I hope neither Aaron nor Rex mind my publicizing the fact that a Rainland track made Aaron's Gigantic Best-of-2003 list: http://www.pastemob.org/jj/mix/03 - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #68 ******************************