From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #67 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, March 5 2004 Volume 04 : Number 067 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Fortissimo" ] [loud-fans] Frank Zappa Zappin'... Mamas and Papas Poppin'... ["Rex.Broom] RE: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa Zappin'... Mamas and Papas Poppin'... [Stewar] RE: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa ["Larry Tucker" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Aaron Mandel ] [loud-fans] mitchells! [Aaron Mandel ] [loud-fans] Gaye marriage ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Gil Ray ] [loud-fans] Dunbar ["Bradley Skaught" ] Re: [loud-fans] Gaye marriage [Steve Holtebeck ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Phil Fleming ] [loud-fans] Re: Dunbar [Gil Ray ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Tim Walters ] RE: [loud-fans] fz ["Angela Bennett & Ian Runeckles" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Aaron Mandel wrote: > Now, however, I've actually heard Frank Zappa for the first time. A friend > put "What's The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?" on a mix CD and, not having > read the liner notes yet when it came on, I decided that whatever it was, > I had to know more about it. Picked up a copy of We're Only In It For The > Money after work today, and... > > So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper Van > Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next > purchase? Zappa - musician, genius, knob-gag merchant, as MOJO calls him. STRICTLY COMMERCIAL collates all the Zappa you may have heard before, and quite well, I'd say. That and the first Ryko WOIIFTM are the only Frank I have, and that's okay with me. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 07:16:24 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 00:00:28 -0500, "Stewart Mason" said: > Given the restrictions you apply, I would get the two albums immediately > before it, FREAK OUT! and ABSOLUTELY FREE (yes, the album of that title > came before the song of that title on FOR THE MONEY), and honestly, you > might just stop right there. I wouldn't myself -- although I do tend to > lose interest sharply 'round about 1970 and have never heard anything I > found interesting after about '74 or '75 -- but there are two key points > related to your response to this album: 1) There are *very* few pop songs > on Zappa's albums after this point, the only exceptions being the likes > of > the rather wonderful "Electric Aunt Jemima" and most of the doo-wop > homage > CRUISIN' WITH RUBEN AND THE JETS, and much more importantly, 2) he really > starts dialing up the smutty jokey stuff after this album, to the point > that by the time of the Flo and Eddie version of the band, there's not > really much else going on lyrically. I'd mostly concur - except that the stuff immediately post-Flo & Eddie - the _Overnite Sensation->One Size Fits All sequence - contains a fair amount of songs-as-songs and tones down the juvenilia. That returns - along with his annoying "low stupid voice" - in great heaping greenish gobs on _Zoot Allures_ and onwards. Aaron: > What I don't like is when a song's flow seems to be dictated by comedic > timing rather than musical timing. In "Who Needs The Peace Corps?" > there's > one spoken line in the middle -- "I think my hair's getting pretty good > in > back" or something like that -- which totally works for me; it breaks the > rhythm intentionally. But then near the end is a spoken *section* which I > can't see being anything but annoying on repeated listen. Hmm... that and the "instrumental" proviso following this that I didn't quote is severely going to limit your enjoyment, I think. I think Zappa's longer pieces are structured less by musical logic and more by an episodic, almost filmic logic: often, he's trying to tell stories (even instrumentally), and the music proceeds by illustrating characters, situations, and events. The longer instrumental pieces in particular don't seem to follow any traditional compositional structure - they move through their little travelogue of Zappa ideas (sometimes he'll tell you, in notes or elsewhere, what those are - but even when he doesn't I get the impression he's got some sort of narrative or visual hook in mind)> Re the humor content: your tolerance iwll also depend how you define "joke" versus, say, the sort of layered satirical weirdness characterizing Firesign Theatre albums (and I'd say FZ's an underheralded influence on those folks, structurally). If that sort of humor intrigues you, or doesn't bug you at least, and doesn't qualify as the sort of joke that's funny only once, more of his stuff might appeal. I'm somehow expecting Tim Walters and Matt Weber to weigh in on Zappa...am I right? - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Miracles are like meatballs, because nobody can exactly agree :: what they are made of, where they come from, or how often :: they should appear. :: --Lemony Snicket ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:50:57 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa Zappin'... Mamas and Papas Poppin'... Aaron Mandel: >>I don't know, I feel dumb, because as far back as I can remember, people >>Iknow have only mentioned Zappa in the context of dirty jokes, lack of >>quality control, or (occasionally) dull egghead classical wannabe-ism. >>Andyet I'm just blown away by parts of this record. I had no idea anything >>catchy sounded this weird in 1968. This really kind of intrigues me... I've heard a little Zappa but generally have had the same impression you describe. Maybe with a slight refinement... I do like some pretty out-there stuff from that period... say, Beefheart, the Red Crayola, the Monks to some extent... and Zappa seems to go hand in hand with that kind of thing sonically or at least is often mentioned in that context, except with more juvenilia and scat thrown in, which is a bit of a turn-off. So this is all interesting... does my slight tweaking of Aaron's restrictions change the recommendations everyone's offered? I wish there was *some* kind of acceptable compilation/sampler thingy for Zappa, really. Could be a place to start for me, could be all I need. I know it's a wide breadth of material and styles with Zappa, but I thing it should be doable. Neil Young and the Kinks both have similarly daunting catalogs, but whatever their faults, Decade and Kronikles are both valid starting points (possibly because they've been in print long enough to be canonical as a *lot* of peoples' first exposure, but they still work). - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:07:57 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa My advice to anyone who's a Zappa novice is to *not* take your recommendations from Zappa fanatics. That's like asking a Deadhead which Grateful Dead album to buy first. Zappa has, a far as I can tell, the second most rabid cult in all of rock, and serious fans think of him on a continuum, so appreciate certain of his albums in the overall context rather than on their own. My feeling is that WE'RE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY is by far the album that has the most appeal to non-fanatcis, and next would probably be FREAK OUT. I find ABSOLUTELY FREE too obtuse and difficult, and nowhere near as melodic or well-conceived as the other two from this period. The other album I'd recommend is WEASELS RIPPED MY FLESH, which, though an odd mix of live and studio tracks with no particular plan in mind, has a lot of excellent and accessible songs, and is also before he started resorting to locker room humor. If you *like* the locker room humor, JOE'S GARAGE ACT I is probably the most "popular" Zappa album among non- fanatics.... Aaron, who still prefers Beefheart _________________________________________________________________ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar  includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:41:36 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa Zappin'... Mamas and Papas Poppin'... At 09:50 AM 3/4/2004 -0800, Rex.Broome wrote: >Aaron Mandel: >>>I don't know, I feel dumb, because as far back as I can remember, people >>>Iknow have only mentioned Zappa in the context of dirty jokes, lack of >>>quality control, or (occasionally) dull egghead classical wannabe-ism. >>>Andyet I'm just blown away by parts of this record. I had no idea anything >>>catchy sounded this weird in 1968. > >This really kind of intrigues me... I've heard a little Zappa but generally >have had the same impression you describe. Maybe with a slight refinement... >I do like some pretty out-there stuff from that period... say, Beefheart, the >Red Crayola, the Monks to some extent... and Zappa seems to go hand in hand >with that kind of thing sonically or at least is often mentioned in that >context, except with more juvenilia and scat thrown in, which is a bit of >a turn-off. So this is all interesting... does my slight tweaking of Aaron's >restrictions change the recommendations everyone's offered? In my case, it means I would also throw in LUMPY GRAVY (Zappa's first long-form orchestral piece, recorded just after MONEY but released before it due to complications with that album's cover, and sharing a few bits of music in common: that lovely little snatch of orchestral music that interrupts "Mother People" is from LUMPY GRAVY, and it ends with a rather rocking iteration of the tune from "Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance"), HOT RATS and UNCLE MEAT. S ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:41:36 -0500 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Frank Zappa > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-loud-fans@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-loud-fans@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Milenski > > Aaron, who still prefers Beefheart > > HERE HERE! Though BONGO FURY also works for me. I had an opportunity to talk with the Captain after a show back around 1980 with the fabulous "new" Magic Band and he told, I'm sure in jest, that the reason he didn't get along with Zappa was because Frank stole the term "zircon incrusted tweezers" from him. LT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:29:11 -0400 From: "John F Butland" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] fz The Grand Wazoo has always been my fave Zappa. Kinda like Overnite Sensation, too, and Studio Tan had some fine moments too. But I haven't heard most of his catalog. Best, JFB > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-loud-fans@smoe.org [mailto:owner-loud-fans@smoe.org] On Behalf > Of Aaron Mandel > Sent: March 3, 2004 11:18 PM > To: Where They've Got Such A Stem > Subject: [loud-fans] fz > > > So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper Van > Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next > purchase? > > a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:55:15 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Michael Wells wrote: > The last is my personal favorite, but if your reference to /Dr. Demento/ > means no 20+ minute songs of epic weirdness ('Billy the Mountain') you > might want to shy away...although it's version of 'Call Any Vegetable' > is priceless. So, today I picked up Freak Out! (seemed to get the most mentions onlist) and have recalibrated my Zappa experience somewhat... first half did almost nothing for me, largely triggering the same "I just don't get it" as records from that era tend to with me; second half, I liked, especially when the weirdness kicked back in. ("Any Way The Wind Blows" was my favorite of the straightforward songs, though.) If 'epic weirdness' means stuff like "Help I'm a Rock" / "It Can't Happen Here" / "... Monster Magnet", then bring it on. I think I still like having a human voice kicking around in my music at least occasionally, but "Monster Magnet" and the first Books album (another recent purchase) are making it clear to me how brief (and/or nonverbal) snippets of voice can be and still fulfill whatever weird need that is I have. Anyway, thanks to everyone for suggestions and opinions. If anyone has more to say I would love to hear from you, but I suspect we should take it offlist. a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:09:06 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: [loud-fans] mitchells! A while ago I wrote about my joy at finding that The Mitchells had released an album while I wasn't looking. I got it in the mail a few weeks ago and I am *thrilled* to say that it's everything I'd hoped (which their first album largely was not). http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mitchells I've always thought of them as being The Bats + Sonic Youth. The CDBaby page mentions Polvo, which would be reasonable had I ever wanted to sing along with a Polvo song. They also did a Pixies song when I saw them play last week, which is not surprising, and my friend Molly pointed out that the singer sounded a little like Stephin Merritt (though mostly in that singing-below-his-range way). I could go on, but probably not pique any more interest by doing so. I'm just saying, they have a forgettable name and a tiny label, so if you don't click on the link above you might never hear the Mitchells, and that would be too bad. a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:30:07 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: [loud-fans] Gaye marriage I'm just now hearing Go Home Productions' Radiohead/Marvin Gaye mashup "Sexual High" - but it's a nice one. The other day I was listening to a mix I made a few years back...and it occurred to me that the Residents can lay claim to having invented the mashup. The last bit of _Third Reich'n'Roll_ welds together the riffs from "Sunshine of Your Love" and "Inna-Gadda-da-Vida" courtesy of their shared chromatic descent, and then melds into a three-way blend of "Hey Jude," "Sympathy for the Devil," and "Na-Na, Hey-Hey (Kiss Him Goodbye)" (since all three have more or less the same chords...a fact obscured by the RZ decision to play in at least two different keys anyway...). - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:48:54 -0800 (PST) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz When I was 17, I really loved the Flo & Eddie lineup. It seemed that Zappa was speaking to me and my buddies. Remember though, I was 17 at the time. But! I still think that lineup could really play. Ansley Dunbar is in my top 3 drum heroes. By the time Grand Wazoo came out, he had developed one of the most unique styles I've ever heard. His grooves are so liquid. Hell of a right foot, too. Gil (speakin 'atcha!) - --- Stewart Mason wrote: There are > *very* few pop songs > on Zappa's albums after this point, the only > exceptions being the likes of > the rather wonderful "Electric Aunt Jemima" and most > of the doo-wop homage > CRUISIN' WITH RUBEN AND THE JETS, and much more > importantly, 2) he really > starts dialing up the smutty jokey stuff after this > album, to the point > that by the time of the Flo and Eddie version of the > band, there's not > really much else going on lyrically. > > S __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:17:44 -0800 From: "Bradley Skaught" Subject: [loud-fans] Dunbar > Ansley > Dunbar is in my top 3 drum heroes. The funny thing about Dunbar is that every once in awhile, usually on some kind of session date, he's completely off the mark! Much as I love David Bowie's Pin Ups, it never fails to amaze me that Dunbar is somehow just not the right drummer for that album. I'm probably the only guy around who'd rather hear Bowie's versions of Who songs, but even then I have to admit that Dunbar sounds totally clueless on Anywhere... B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:59:43 -0800 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Gaye marriage Fortissimo wrote: > I'm just now hearing Go Home Productions' Radiohead/Marvin Gaye mashup > "Sexual High" - but it's a nice one. > I've become a big fan of Go Home Productions lately, checking his (I think GHP is one man operation) site http://www.gohomeproductions.co.uk every week or so for new "fogey-friendly" mashups for people like me who aren't familiar enough with Missy, Jay-Z, Beyonce, etc.. My current faves are "Karma Life" ("Karma Police" m/w "A Day In The Life"), "Paperback Believer" ("Paperback Writer" m/w "I'm A Believer"), and "I Just Wasn't Made For The Backseat of My Car" ("I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" m/w Paul McCartney's "Backseat of My Car", which doesn't seem to be on the site anymore). Even though PET SOUNDS vocal and backing tracks are openly available on the box set, people never try to mix and mash them. It's apparently difficult to match Brian Wilson's vocals with other people's tracks and vice versa, because he tends to change key in mid-song too many times. I downloaded DJ Danger Mouse's GREY ALBUM last week (on Grey Tuesday natch) and think it's pretty interesting. Like Jeff, I don't know Jay-Z's BLACK ALBUM that well, but it's given me impetus to re-listen to THE WHITE ALBUM to see where he stole this bit or that bit. I think that's a pretty good name for the album, because the legality isn't as black vs. white as either EMI or the people at greytuesday.org make it, especially if the album isn't commercially available. - -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:29:59 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz At 06:48 PM 3/4/2004 -0800, Gil Ray wrote: > When I was 17, I really loved the Flo & Eddie >lineup. It seemed that Zappa was speaking to me and my >buddies. Remember though, I was 17 at the time. But! I >still think that lineup could really play. Ansley >Dunbar is in my top 3 drum heroes. By the time Grand >Wazoo came out, he had developed one of the most >unique styles I've ever heard. His grooves are so >liquid. Hell of a right foot, too. I don't deny that there's musical pleasures to be found during this period of Zappa's work -- and even some lyrical ones (Gil's riff from "Lonesome Cowboy Burt" has had me singing "You can sit on my face/Where's my waitress?" for most of the evening) -- but what I miss from the Flo and Eddie lineup is...it's hard to describe. Lemme put it this way: I have FREAK OUT!, ABSOLUTELY FREE, WE'RE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY, CRUISIN' WITH RUBEN AND THE JETS and UNCLE MEAT filed under M, and all the other Frank Zappa records -- including the ones released under some permutation of the Mothers name -- filed under Z. The original Mothers were not virtuoso musicians, except for Ian Underwood, but by god, they were a BAND. By the time of the Flo and Eddie lineup, it was -- and would remain -- Frank and his backing musicians. S NP: ADVENTURES IN FOAM -- Cujo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:35:25 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz After getting YOU ARE WHAT YOU IS thanks to seeing the weird video for the title track on Beavis and Butthead, I went on a Zappa spending binge sometime around 1995 when Ryko started repackaging all of the FZ albums advertising "All 60 albums are now in one place." Thanks to a Tower Records sale at the time, I wound up getting every FZ album I could find on cassette (I didn't own a portable CD player until 1999... and besides, they were something like $3.44 each.). I ended up with 6 or 7 cassettes at the time and I found I liked most of them. I shied away from the orchestal stuff though. I guess I'm one of the few that actually liked his less 'serious' material. My personal favorites are both HOT RATS or ZOOT ALLURES. I love them both for different reasons. HOT RATS is a mostly instrumental record except for "Willie The Pimp" which features Captain Beefheart and has one of his best known instrumentals "Peaches En Regalia". ZOOT ALLURES is worth its price for "Black Napkins" leading into "The Torture Never Stops". Not bad for what was originally his major label debut. Both records have some great guitar work on them. JOE'S GARAGE is a really cool concept record... a bit overblown, but great nonetheless. It also contains FZ's personal favorite song "Watermelon In Easter Hay". I wouldn't recommend YOU ARE WHAT YOU IS though, most of the songs border on novelty, the albums best song "Dumb All Over" appears on the CD in abridged form (for no apparent reason), and is very poorly remastered (the left channel audio goes in and out throughout the whole record...very annoying when listening on headphones). I once saw on some documentary that FZ had a vault with hundreds of hours of unreleased music. The Zappa Family Trust said that a lot more would be coming out in the coming years (the documentary was probably 1996 or so), but they seems to be taking their sweet time with it. Phil F. NP (when I started this post) The Mitchells' samples on CDBaby ... something to consider when I get some money tomorrow. - --- Aaron Mandel wrote: > Our Scott said, a few years ago, that he feared > becoming like Frank Zappa, > where there were so many of his records in the bins > that kids had no idea > where to start. I remember the waves of Ryko > reissues that happened around > when I was getting into music in the first place, so > I knew the kind of > profusion Scott was talking about. > > Now, however, I've actually heard Frank Zappa for > the first time. A friend > put "What's The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?" on a mix > CD and, not having > read the liner notes yet when it came on, I decided > that whatever it was, > I had to know more about it. Picked up a copy of > We're Only In It For The > Money after work today, and... > > I don't know, I feel dumb, because as far back as I > can remember, people I > know have only mentioned Zappa in the context of > dirty jokes, lack of > quality control, or (occasionally) dull egghead > classical wannabe-ism. And > yet I'm just blown away by parts of this record. I > had no idea anything > catchy sounded this weird in 1968. I had no idea > funny voices could be > this musical (though Eminem makes a strong case for > it). I definitely want > to hear more. > > But now it's like, dude, there really are dozens of > Frank Zappa albums, > aren't there? > > So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee > Thousand_ and Camper Van > Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. > Demento, what's my next > purchase? > > a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:43:35 -0800 (PST) From: Gil Ray Subject: [loud-fans] Re: Dunbar - --- Bradley Skaught wrote: > Much as I love David > Bowie's Pin Ups, it never fails to amaze me that > Dunbar is somehow just not > the right drummer for that album. I'm probably the > only guy around who'd > rather hear Bowie's versions of Who songs, but even > then I have to admit > that Dunbar sounds totally clueless on Anywhere... Funny you mention this! Scott once saw Bowie with Adrian Belew and thought he was a very...inappropriate choice for guitar. What's with that guy?! (sounds like he's got a pretty kick ass band now, though!) I've listened to a couple other band settings of Dunbar's' and came to the conclusion that I only really liked his Zappa stuff. Hard to believe he was Journey's first drummer.. And Stewart, I am with you on the Mothers vs Zappa thing. Still thought Flo & Eddie brought some of their own stuff to the band though. I love the version of Happy Together on the live album.(one of the best pop songs ever!) Very cool that Zappa did it pretty straight. Of course all of this sounds better stoned. Gil __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:46:01 -0800 From: Tim Walters Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 05:16 AM, Fortissimo wrote: > I'm somehow expecting Tim Walters and Matt Weber to weigh in on > Zappa...am I right? It's a very reasonable guess, but in my case at least, no. I like a lot of stuff that people say sounds like him (Henry Cow, the Muffins, Doctor Nerve, Beefheart, etc.), but I don't hear the resemblance (except when the Muffins use mallet percussion) and I've never developed a taste for Zappa himself. I think it's partly because I bought the wrong Zappa albums (200 MOTELS and SHUT UP AND PLAY YOUR GUITAR) at an early age. But since then I've heard FREAK OUT, HOT RATS, and UNCLE MEAT without being converted. However, I turned on KFJC in the middle of "Inca Roads" a while back, and it was pretty great. What album is that from? And I'm definitely going to pick up ...MONEY after reading this discussion, and perhaps go on from there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:48:22 -0000 From: "Angela Bennett & Ian Runeckles" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] fz Tim asked: > However, I turned on KFJC in the middle of "Inca Roads" a while back, > and it was pretty great. What album is that from? And I'm definitely > going to pick up ...MONEY after reading this discussion, and > perhaps go > on from there. Inca Roads is on One Size Fits All, possibly my favourite of his "rock" albums which also contains one of his loveliest tunes, Sofa. Also one of FZ's favourite bands that could play up a storm - Napoleon Murphy Brock, Chester Thompson, George Duke, Ruth Underwood, Tom Fowler... I haven't had time to weigh in on the great Zappa debate yet! I've been a fan since I heard Apostrophe back in 73 and have a lot of his stuff - and my cat's called Zappa! More later if you can stand it... Ian ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #67 ******************************