From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #66 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, March 4 2004 Volume 04 : Number 066 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Gil's Protest Photo [Robert Toren ] Re: [loud-fans] Gil's Protest Photo ["Roger Winston" ] Re: [loud-fans] Swap Mix follow up ["Bradley Skaught" ] Re: [loud-fans] Swap Mix follow up ["Michael Zwirn" ] [loud-fans] fz [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Fortissimo" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] fz ["Michael Wells" ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [steve ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] fz [Stewart Mason ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Toren Subject: [loud-fans] Gil's Protest Photo Gil asked me to send this news photo of him getting in trouble at the white House while "protesting the end of sibling marriage." http://www.angrylambie.com/images/gil%20in%20trouble.jpg Robert ===== http://www.angrylambie.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:36:33 -0700 From: "Roger Winston" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Gil's Protest Photo Robert Toren on 3/3/2004 9:23:00 AM wrote: > Gil asked me to send this news photo of him getting > in trouble at the white House while "protesting the > end of sibling marriage." > > http://www.angrylambie.com/images/gil%20in%20trouble.jpg Well, at least it appears the tick problem has cleared up. Latre. --Rog - -- Distance, Redefined: http://www.reignoffrogs.com/flasshe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:50:23 -0800 From: "Bradley Skaught" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Swap Mix follow up > that the homemade four-track > aspect of his music wasn't by necessity or even a > deliberate stylistic > choice, but more like he thought, "Hey, I'll have more > indie cred if I > dirty these up some!" I can definitely understand that response. The last two Vanderslice records are far less "lo-fi", or, I should say, those elements are better integrated into the production and arranging. It is a part of his sound, though I can say that he does come to it quite naturally--he's a long time home recording geek and I think one of his goals is often to bring something of that with him into the studio. In my dealings with him, at least, i've never had the feeling that indie cred was any kind of motivation! It's a big part of his arranging process, I think. Again, seeing him live was the clincher for me--I was able to "decipher" the records a bit better having gotten a clearer picture of his songwriting in a live context. Stewart, it's possible the records will never work for you but I think you'd really enjoy it live. B ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:40:58 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Swap Mix follow up On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:50:23 -0800, "Bradley Skaught" said: re John Vanderslice > say that he does come to it quite naturally--he's a long time home > recording > geek and I think one of his goals is often to bring something of that > with > him into the studio. In my dealings with him, at least, i've never had > the > feeling that indie cred was any kind of motivation! It's a big part of > his > arranging process, I think. I know one or two people who were put off by his singing style: he enunciates more strongly than most indie rockers, and between that and something in his vocal tone, one of those folks was reminded of (shudder) the guy from Styx. I'm sorry - I really shouldn't have reminded anyone of them. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:47:52 -0800 From: "Michael Zwirn" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Swap Mix follow up > I know one or two people who were put off by his singing style: he > enunciates more strongly than most indie rockers, and between that and > something in his vocal tone, one of those folks was reminded of (shudder) > the guy from Styx. > > I'm sorry - I really shouldn't have reminded anyone of them. Whoa. I hadn't thought of that. I thought his enunciation was reminiscent of Ted Leo's, albeit without Leo's I-can-swallow-the-world-in-two-gulps gesticulations. n.p. iPod on Shuffle, with Scott Miller's "Vado Via" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:18:13 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: [loud-fans] fz Our Scott said, a few years ago, that he feared becoming like Frank Zappa, where there were so many of his records in the bins that kids had no idea where to start. I remember the waves of Ryko reissues that happened around when I was getting into music in the first place, so I knew the kind of profusion Scott was talking about. Now, however, I've actually heard Frank Zappa for the first time. A friend put "What's The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?" on a mix CD and, not having read the liner notes yet when it came on, I decided that whatever it was, I had to know more about it. Picked up a copy of We're Only In It For The Money after work today, and... I don't know, I feel dumb, because as far back as I can remember, people I know have only mentioned Zappa in the context of dirty jokes, lack of quality control, or (occasionally) dull egghead classical wannabe-ism. And yet I'm just blown away by parts of this record. I had no idea anything catchy sounded this weird in 1968. I had no idea funny voices could be this musical (though Eminem makes a strong case for it). I definitely want to hear more. But now it's like, dude, there really are dozens of Frank Zappa albums, aren't there? So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper Van Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next purchase? a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:45:10 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:18:13 -0500 (EST), "Aaron Mandel" said: > Now, however, I've actually heard Frank Zappa for the first time. A > friend > put "What's The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?" on a mix CD and, not having > read the liner notes yet when it came on, I decided that whatever it was, > I had to know more about it. Picked up a copy of We're Only In It For The > Money after work today, and... > > yet I'm just blown away by parts of this record. I had no idea anything > catchy sounded this weird in 1968. I had no idea funny voices could be > this musical (though Eminem makes a strong case for it). I definitely > want > to hear more. > So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper > Van > Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next > purchase? So WTUPOYB *doesn't* remind you of Dr. Demento? Anyway...I'm not quite sure of the _Bee Thousand_ bit, but of course Zappa was a major influence on CVB, so that makes sense to me....hmm... The album immediately preceding ..$$.., _Absolutely Free_, is pretty close, stylistically, although I've always felt the second half drags a bit. If you want to know where Negativland got half their musical ideas, or what that band would sound like scoring an orchestra, you'll want to hear _Lumpy Gravy_. (Bear with me...I'm sort of cruising through FZ's catalog chronologically.) I"m not sure which edition of _Uncle Meat_ is out now - at one point, there was a totally pointless two-disc version of it, which featured most of the original two-album set on one CD, a half-hour of pointless babbling (dialogue from the aborted movie of the same name) and a new (circa '80s) track that was, uh, rather pointless. The original _Uncle Meat_, though, is pretty damned cool - it's quite impressive the sounds they get from old, souped-up organs and tape-speed altered acoustic/electric instruments. Plus, some of my favorite songs thereon. One problem w/Zappa is that, like hip-hop, it's incredibly intertextual: he's constantly quoting himself musically & lyrically, and fanboy geeks like myself get much more out of his stuff than, uh, regular people. Let's see...after the early Mothers (of Invention) period, he got into a sort of jazz mode: weird on _Grand Wazoo_, almost mainstream/pre-fusion on _Hot Rats_, and a bit more rock-like on _Waka/Jawaka_. I think his most "rock" period (which is also his most "seventies"-sounding period...uh, because it was the '70s) is the streak from _Overnite Sensation_ through _Apostrophe'_ and (personal fave) _One Size Fits All_. OSFA is also among his most proggy albums - if lightning-speed keyboard solos in 7/16 time do nothing for you, probably not your bag. I think he went into a huge decline, rock-wise, from the late seventies onward. I think he lost interest, and would rather have been doing orchestral music (which he also did during this time period). _Sheik Yerbouti_ has its moments, as does the reconfigured (to its original form) _Lather_ (add umlaut over a) - but that album is way too freakin' long. I kind of lost track of the latter part of his career: even before he knew he was dying (died in '93) he went on a mad binge of reissuing old stuff and issuing more live albums than are available at the Pearl Jam website (this is almost, but not quite, literally true). I get Scott's comments...but Zappa had such a rabid fanbase, I guess he figured, hey, they wanna hear it - let them figure out which is the best of it. (Another problem: he seemed to value technique and character-actor-ishness in his players over feel and any sort of restraint in playing...again, one reason many proggers get into him.) The more I think of it, though, the more I think if you approach his work as some sort of alien pre- hip-hop, you might get into it that way - in terms of collage, tying together disparate materials, constructing a universe of one's own, not giving a shit what anyone else thinks... ??? *Someone* might have to make you a compilation...I'm pretty sure there are a *few* other Zappa fans here, though, who can argue with my selections so far... - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:58:42 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz In a message dated 3/3/04 10:22:30 PM, aaron@eecs.harvard.edu writes: > Now, however, I've actually heard Frank Zappa for the first time. A friend > put "What's The Ugliest Part Of Your Body?" on a mix CD and, not having > read the liner notes yet when it came on, I decided that whatever it was, > I had to know more about it. Picked up a copy of We're Only In It For The > Money after work today, and... > "...Only In It..." has always struck me as Zappa's great pop album...not to mention one of the great anti-hippie albums of all time. Anyway, I'm certainly not the only pop fan who has that as the only Zappa in his collection, so proceed with caution. Zappa fans, however, should be happy about "The World's Greatest Sinner" finally being available in a decent print. He wrote a great soundtrack, and then panned the film...most likely because he didn't want people to discover the influence that the film had upon him. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:00:38 -0600 From: "Michael Wells" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz Aaron: > Now, however, I've actually heard Frank Zappa for the first time. Wow. Excellent. Welcome. > So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper Van > Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next > purchase? I know answers are going to come in all over the map, but I'd recommend: 1. "Joe's Garage" 2. "Lather" - lovingly 'issued' by Ryko in '96 3. "Freak Out" - the Mothers debut. 4. " Sheik Yerbouti" - try it for the Bozzio, stay for the Belew. 5. "Over-nite Sensation" 6. "Burnt Weeny Sandwich" - mostly instrumentals culled from Mothers tapes. Quite tasty, actually. 7. "Was Mothers Just Another Band from L.A.?" The last is my personal favorite, but if your reference to /Dr. Demento/ means no 20+ minute songs of epic weirdness ('Billy the Mountain') you might want to shy away...although it's version of 'Call Any Vegetable' is priceless. Michael "the Illinois Enema Bandit" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:08:04 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Mar 3, 2004, at 9:18 PM, Aaron Mandel wrote: > So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper > Van > Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next > purchase? Freak Out! (1966!) Hot Rats 200 Motels The Grand Wazoo One Size Fits All The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life & Make A Jazz Noise Here The Yellow Shark That would be my list. Fairly heavy on the instrumental side, because lots of Frank's lyrics have that Demento element. And for college credit - - - Steve __________ contestant blackburn adjourn burette ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:32:33 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Michael Wells wrote: > The last is my personal favorite, but if your reference to /Dr. Demento/ > means no 20+ minute songs of epic weirdness You know, I may not have heard enough Dr. Demento to go name-dropping him like that. What I don't like is when a song's flow seems to be dictated by comedic timing rather than musical timing. In "Who Needs The Peace Corps?" there's one spoken line in the middle -- "I think my hair's getting pretty good in back" or something like that -- which totally works for me; it breaks the rhythm intentionally. But then near the end is a spoken *section* which I can't see being anything but annoying on repeated listen. Whimsical stuff is okay; it's still whimsical the tenth time. Jokes, however, are rarely funny more than once. At least, I think that's it. I also have a medium-strong aversion to instrumental music. It's fading, and I find "The Chrome Plated Megaphone Of Destiny" interesting, but I don't know that I'd ever play a whole record of it twice. a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 00:00:28 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] fz At 10:18 PM 3/3/2004 -0500, Aaron Mandel wrote: >I don't know, I feel dumb, because as far back as I can remember, people I >know have only mentioned Zappa in the context of dirty jokes, lack of >quality control, or (occasionally) dull egghead classical wannabe-ism. And >yet I'm just blown away by parts of this record. I had no idea anything >catchy sounded this weird in 1968. I had no idea funny voices could be >this musical (though Eminem makes a strong case for it). I definitely want >to hear more. > >But now it's like, dude, there really are dozens of Frank Zappa albums, >aren't there? > >So, if I love WOIIFTM where it reminds me of _Bee Thousand_ and Camper Van >Beethoven, and not when it reminds me of Dr. Demento, what's my next >purchase? Given the restrictions you apply, I would get the two albums immediately before it, FREAK OUT! and ABSOLUTELY FREE (yes, the album of that title came before the song of that title on FOR THE MONEY), and honestly, you might just stop right there. I wouldn't myself -- although I do tend to lose interest sharply 'round about 1970 and have never heard anything I found interesting after about '74 or '75 -- but there are two key points related to your response to this album: 1) There are *very* few pop songs on Zappa's albums after this point, the only exceptions being the likes of the rather wonderful "Electric Aunt Jemima" and most of the doo-wop homage CRUISIN' WITH RUBEN AND THE JETS, and much more importantly, 2) he really starts dialing up the smutty jokey stuff after this album, to the point that by the time of the Flo and Eddie version of the band, there's not really much else going on lyrically. S ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #66 ******************************