From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V4 #50 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, February 18 2004 Volume 04 : Number 050 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] History of Dating [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Things I Don't Understand [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] Plunder Love Allin [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 [Chris Murtland ] Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] History of Dating [Holly Kruse ] [loud-fans] FOW [Dan Sallitt ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:47:28 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] History of Dating Chris Murtland wrote: > > So, I take it you are saying I should be calling my travel agent? > Haven't been there myself, but if stories on another list and the TV show I saw are faithful representations, then, yeah. That is, if the idea of people dancing the night away and getting naked in huge drifts of bubbles appeals to you. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:46:32 -0800 From: "Bradley Skaught" Subject: [loud-fans] Here They Come I'm starting to get used to the fact that most of the cool band reunions are happening over in England where I don't get to see them (House of Love, Dexy's Midnight Runners). News that The La's (or, at least, Mavers and Powers) have gotten back together is the most exciting yet, though. Maybe I should start saving for plane tickets! B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:52:13 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Things I Don't Understand On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, jer fairall wrote: > 3. Why I've never heard (or just missed) any mention of Saddle > Creek band Now It's Overhead, whose new album FALL BACK OPEN I'm > giving a rather impressed first listen to right now, on-list. I remember that in the year after the first album came out, three people posted "how come I've never heard of this band on-list?" and since I responded every time, the second and third times I felt sort of sheepish, in that me mentioning it obviously wasn't actually doing any good. I can only assume the name keeps them from sticking in people's heads, since in general the list has a longer memory for my offhand comments than I do. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:02:34 -0800 From: "Michael Zwirn" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Now It's Overhead (Was: Things I Don't Understand) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Mandel" To: "jer fairall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Things I Don't Understand > On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, jer fairall wrote: > > > 3. Why I've never heard (or just missed) any mention of Saddle > > Creek band Now It's Overhead, whose new album FALL BACK OPEN I'm > > giving a rather impressed first listen to right now, on-list. > > I remember that in the year after the first album came out, three people > posted "how come I've never heard of this band on-list?" and since I > responded every time, the second and third times I felt sort of sheepish, > in that me mentioning it obviously wasn't actually doing any good. I know them from a few remixes they did of the last R.E.M. album, on the R.E.M.ix project available from the R.E.M./Athens homepage. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:10:26 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Things I Don't Understand - --- jer fairall wrote: > 1. Why so many Christians think they own the > monopoly on marriage? In my experience, they think that since they're the most vocal about any issue, they have the monopoly on it. > 2. Why we're still talking about Fountains of Wayne > and ignoring > Bleu, whose REDHEAD (and not WELCOME INTERSTATE > MANAGERS) was > clearly 2003's power-pop masterpiece. 1. Because they inexplicably got Grammy nominations. 2. You pretty much answered the question on Bleu. It's actually a good record... and since when would anybody outside of the loudfans circle and the greater Boston area give a shit about a good record when there's nice mindless drivel like Good Charlotte (and that's the best compliment I can give them) and Simple Plan to drool over? 3. Yes it was released in late 2002, but not in stores. It was available at early shows and online. three tracks were taken out (one was relegated to hidden track status) and two were put in it's place (including the first single "Get Up") and the record finally came out in mid-2003. > 3. Why I've never heard (or just missed) any > mention of Saddle > Creek band Now It's Overhead, whose new album FALL > BACK OPEN I'm > giving a rather impressed first listen to right now, > on-list. > > I would definitely appreciate any clarification on > any of the above. > > Jer Phil F. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:57:54 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 Chris said this, but I'm not putting it in quotes because I could've written it as well, with only one word changed: The most heated discussions my wife and I have had involve the differences between rock and classical music, or spirit/attitude (?) vs. technical ability. I told her I didn't believe that playing in the orchestra was a creative act; only the composer was involved in a creative act (probably hundreds of years ago). Of course, this doesn't diminish my respect or enjoyment of someone with technical ability, and I love to hear her [sing]. It's just not creativity when you are playing the notes someone else wrote. She gets me back by pointing out all the times I'm singing out of tune (which apparently is quite often; I don't know, I don't have much of an ear for that sort of thing). (Actually my wife and I have long since divided artist into "generator" and "interpreter" categories, which helps. It allows, for example, actors and directors to be artists, whereas the more stringent model locates the creativity in theatre with the writer alone. But I digress... this is still eerily familiar-ass to me.) (and then) >>We are trying to be a rock band, but it's a little tricky with the >>different approaches. Okay. From one who's been there... and it's just my experience... this is a really really good way to fuck up your relationship in ways from which it can take years to recover. I'm not talking just the band/relationship thing, but specifically the different aproach thing, and particularly *these* different approaches. Proceed with extreme caution. Rex "I got your back on this whole spousal rock/classical band thing" Broome ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:58:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Plunder Love Allin On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, dmw wrote: > > I noticed the Plunderphonics album, and have been interested enough in > > what I've heard to check some of it out, but the two albums have 62 > > "songs", which would max out my Emusic monthly quota. Would anyone care > > hep me to find some of the more interesting individual tracks? > > Is there anyplace online that has the rundown of the source material on > > these discs? > > the book that comes with the physical version is really great, if > you find yourself as hooked as i was. Still available at http://www.negativland.com/nmol/seeland.html#oswald - not exactly easy listening, but certainly engaging for a least a few tracks at a time. On Fri, 13 Feb 2004, Miles Goosens wrote: > Listening to AMERICA'S SWEETHEART and thinking about CELEBRITY SKIN > transports me to the one time I saw Hole, at Nashville River Stages > several Mays ago. Melissa Auf der Maur looked like something out of > my fantasies: pale skin, dark hair, sexily cut maroon mini-dress, > thigh-high boots. And the moment Courtney came on stage, I couldn't > look at anything else but Courtney. Some people just have "it," and > love her or hate her, man, she's got it. I saw them on the LIVE THROUGH THIS tour in Dec. '94, and Courtney was drunk and abusive, crowd-surfing and pulling some guy out of the audience claiming he groped her. Apparently, she did that at every show. It was a trainwreck of a performance, and, tying it all back together, it was a first (and last) date. On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Chris Murtland wrote: > GG Allin seems to be one guy who could offend anyone, regardless of > their sensibilities. Didn't he get killed in prison or something? He died of a heroin overdose while out on bail. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:07:43 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: [loud-fans] Breakin' Guitars and Makin' Friends Chris M.: >>Hmm, quoting the Smiths is even worse than talking about politics. Depends on both your politics and which Smiths song, really. JeFFrey: >>I remember one joker in a local band, around the time >>Nirvana brought back the stupid guitar-smashing stunt (I mean, at >>leastPete had the decency to *steal* the guitars he wrecked), thinking >>it'd be cool to wreck his guitar. I saw him do this a couple of times - and >>itpissed me off, because I know that myself and many other audience >>memberscouldn't afford a goddamned electric guitar and here's this >>moron obliviously smashing one to bits. Trust fund idiot, for sure. I once smashed a mandolin onstage. I'm sure most of you have. In my defense, it was a non-functional mandolin purchased in Tijuana for maybe fifteen bucks. It was my first gig with a new band and I hadn't even had time to learn all the tunes, so on the last one I just faked along on the former mandolin (emblazoned with the legend "HELL-BOUND" and sporting a strap made up of really fruity-looking scarves) and smashed it during the bridge. In a really non-rock-and roll moment I panicked that the club would ban us if I scuffed up their floor, so I smashed it *over my own amp*. Punk's not dead. I saved the remains for years. Chris again: >>For some reason, I'm all for stories about "making friends," so I hope >>to hear the weirdest tales you guys can cough up. Let's leave "making >>friends" as vague as possible. Was it here or elsewhere that I posted my "My Girlfriend Got to Go Backstage with the Replacements in Paris So I Gave Paul Westerberg's Pick to the Chick from Minneapolis Who Had Been Hanging Out in Front of the Stage with Me and It Could Have Been Love But My Girlfriend Came Back So There You Go" story? Seems like there have been countless times when an opening band/artist has really captured my attention and everybody else there hated them except for That One Chick who happened to be right next to me. None of them ever panned out, but it is a bonding experience of unusual power. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:13:07 -0700 (MST) From: Dennis Subject: Re: [loud-fans] History of Dating/SEO On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Chris Murtland wrote: > I just hope it isn't retroactive. I accept credit cards, money orders and cashier's checks for removal of specific posts from google. ;) - -- - --- Dennis Sacks dennis@illusions.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:27:04 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Plunder Love Allin At 09:58 AM 2/17/2004 -0800, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: >On Fri, 13 Feb 2004, Miles Goosens wrote: >> Listening to AMERICA'S SWEETHEART and thinking about CELEBRITY SKIN >> transports me to the one time I saw Hole, at Nashville River Stages >> several Mays ago. Melissa Auf der Maur looked like something out of >> my fantasies: pale skin, dark hair, sexily cut maroon mini-dress, >> thigh-high boots. And the moment Courtney came on stage, I couldn't >> look at anything else but Courtney. Some people just have "it," and >> love her or hate her, man, she's got it. > >I saw them on the LIVE THROUGH THIS tour in Dec. '94, and Courtney was >drunk and abusive, crowd-surfing and pulling some guy out of the audience >claiming he groped her. Apparently, she did that at every show. It was a >trainwreck of a performance, and, tying it all back together, it was a >first (and last) date. I'm not saying that her stage persona -- and heck, her non-stage persona -- can't spiral into a disaster, as it apparently did in '94 on a regular basis. And it's of course up to you whether the events of April '94 might make it worth giving her at least a partial pass. But when we saw her in '99, she seemed to have it together, to the point of deliberately playing with that earlier stage persona only to swing back into absolute command in the blink of an eye. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:55:38 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:57:54 -0800, "Rex.Broome" said: > >>We are trying to be a rock band, but it's a little tricky with the > >>different approaches. > > Okay. From one who's been there... and it's just my experience... this > is a really really good way to fuck up your relationship in ways from > which it can take years to recover. I'm not talking just the > band/relationship thing, but specifically the different aproach thing, > and particularly *these* different approaches. Proceed with extreme > caution. Oh come on, Rex - you're discouring Chris from being Early ELO Mark II? And deprive the world of the "Lick My Love Pump Oratorio"? That's a cost that Chris's relationship is surely unworthy of - esp. if his wife is cute and I were single, which I'm not anyway. Oh wait this was supposed to be private e-mail...damn. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: zoom@muppetlabs.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 Rex quoting Chris, then Rex: > Chris said this, but I'm not putting it in quotes because I could've > written it as well, with only one word changed: > The most heated discussions my wife and I have had involve the > differences between rock and classical music, or spirit/attitude (?) vs. > technical ability. I told her I didn't believe that playing in the > orchestra was a creative act; only the composer was involved in a > creative act (probably hundreds of years ago). Of course, this doesn't > diminish my respect or enjoyment of someone with technical ability, and > I love to hear her [sing]. It's just not creativity when you are playing > the notes someone else wrote. She gets me back by pointing out all the > times I'm singing out of tune (which apparently is quite often; I don't > know, I don't have much of an ear for that sort of thing). > > (Actually my wife and I have long since divided artist into "generator" > and "interpreter" categories, which helps. It allows, for example, actors > and directors to be artists, whereas the more stringent model locates the > creativity in theatre with the writer alone. But I digress... this is > still eerily familiar-ass to me.) Well okay, but I've still got a lot of trouble with the idea that any jazz musician who doesn't write his/her head charts, is "just not [creative]." Or any band playing a cover version. And of course, John Oswald to DJ Screw... I mean, where does "Gloria" end and "In Excelsis Deo" begin? Chris again, then Rex again: >>>We are trying to be a rock band, but it's a little tricky with the >>>different approaches. > > Okay. From one who's been there... and it's just my experience... this is > a really really good way to fuck up your relationship in ways from which > it can take years to recover. I'm not talking just the band/relationship > thing, but specifically the different aproach thing, and particularly > *these* different approaches. Proceed with extreme caution. I just finished reading BABY PLAYS AROUND by Helene Stapinski, the true story of a woman first out of, then in, then out of again, a band with her husband. *That's* a cautionary tale. Wish I knew what Martin's real name was, though, Andy "There are many moments when the characters quiz each other about the movies, or re-enact scenes they remember; a particularly lovely scene has Isabelle moving around a room, touching surfaces, in a perfect imitation of Garbo in 'Queen Christina.' And there's a bitter argument between Matthew and Theo about who is greater -- Keaton or Chaplin? Matthew, the American, of course knows that the answer is Keaton. Only a Frenchman could think it was Chaplin." - --Roger Ebert, from his review of THE DREAMERS, http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-dreamers13f.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:49:48 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: [loud-fans] Spouse-Rock Andy: >>Well okay, but I've still got a lot of trouble with the idea that any jazz >>musician who doesn't write his/her head charts, is "just not [creative]." >>Or any band playing a cover version. And of course, John Oswald to DJ >>Screw... It does seem like artists who are chiefly (or especially brilliantly) improvisational really blur that line between "generator" and "interpreter"... and that line is damned fuzzy to begin with. I don't actually hew too closely to this dichotomy, anyhow; I was basically just identifying strongly enough with Chris's situation to let most of the distinctions cruise. In the case of my wife and I, it was usually me on the defensive about skronky rock or iffy vocalists; she would use "He doesn't even read music" as a definitive statement of an artist's badness, and "He graduated from Julliard" as an unassailable mark of musical greatness. Her views are a lot more subtle than that, really, and her definition of a "musician" requires more than technique, but there remains a level of amateurism below which she won't descend... or at least, she won't love anything below it, and a lot of my favorite artist are way down below that layer of mirk and mire. No biggie, because she doesn't really listen to music... at least like I do. I mean, it's a big part of her life, but in a way so different from mine that it's like a totally different medium on every level. Hard to explain, and who wants to hear about my domestic life anyhow? Not me! - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:02:24 -0500 From: Chris Murtland Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 Rex.Broome wrote: >(Actually my wife and I have long since divided artist into "generator" and "interpreter" categories, which helps. It allows, for example, actors and directors to be artists, whereas the more stringent model locates the creativity in theatre with the writer alone. But I digress... this is still eerily familiar-ass to me.) > > > That's a good distinction. I will bring it up at our next Art Wars Summit. She also attended a performing arts college, and I, of course, have much disdain for such organized tomfoolery, so that adds another layer to the discussions. Can art be taught? I'd feel better if they just called it a "performance" school. But they have a school of filmmaking, which doesn't seem like performance to me, unless you are an actor, which is a different department altogether. But I need to apply your generator/interpreter distinction to my pissy biases and reformulate them. >>>We are trying to be a rock band, but it's a little tricky with the >>>different approaches. >>> >>> > >Okay. From one who's been there... and it's just my experience... this is a really really good way to fuck up your relationship in ways from which it can take years to recover. I'm not talking just the band/relationship thing, but specifically the different aproach thing, and particularly *these* different approaches. Proceed with extreme caution. > > > It did seem stressful at first, but luckily we have no aspirations of being very popular. Having low expectations of something is the best way to reduce friction. It doesn't mean we aren't going to try to be as good as possible, but that's as far as it goes - whether or not anyone else likes it is completely superfluous. Of course, until we find a drummer, it's all theoretical anyway. Although we have considered going the White Stripes route. She's just as willing to play the drums as the bass. Anyway, she loves to rock out to my swamp hits "Hey All You Cajun Mama" and "Shit Rocker," so who am I to complain? Oh, to top it all off, we also both work at home in the same room. Yikes! It's almost like we're married or something. I got a lap steel guitar for Christmas, which I always wanted for some reason, even though I mostly like to play garage rock. So far, I can make vaguely Hawaiian noises on it. Rex, I'm sure you know how to play one. Any tips? later, - - don ho ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:05:36 -0500 From: Chris Murtland Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 Fortissimo wrote: >Oh come on, Rex - you're discouring Chris from being Early ELO Mark II? >And deprive the world of the "Lick My Love Pump Oratorio"? That's a cost >that Chris's relationship is surely unworthy of - esp. if his wife is >cute and I were single, which I'm not anyway. > >Oh wait this was supposed to be private e-mail...damn. >------------------------------- > >...Jeff > > How did you know about my secret ELO fetish? Also, thanks for the song title idea. - - white dude with a fro ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:16:58 -0500 From: Chris Murtland Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Spouse-Rock Rex.Broome wrote: >Andy: > > >>>Well okay, but I've still got a lot of trouble with the idea that any jazz >>>musician who doesn't write his/her head charts, is "just not [creative]." >>>Or any band playing a cover version. And of course, John Oswald to DJ >>>Screw... >>> >>> > >It does seem like artists who are chiefly (or especially brilliantly) improvisational really blur that line between "generator" and "interpreter"... and that line is damned fuzzy to begin with. I don't actually hew too closely to this dichotomy, anyhow; I was basically just identifying strongly enough with Chris's situation to let most of the distinctions cruise. > > That's true. And of course, even "creativity" is, to some degree, a regurgitation of something else anyway. There is rarely anything truly new, so I suppose I shouldn't be so hard on interpreters, since generators are also mainly interpreters. I just try to err on the side of divisive distinction when possible. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after. - - solemn mon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:16:48 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: loud-fans-digest V4 #49 Chris Murtland wrote: > Can art be taught? I'd feel better if they just called it a > "performance" school. But they have a school of filmmaking, which > doesn't seem like performance to me, unless you are an actor, which is > a different department altogether. I don't think art can be taught (though it can certainly be studied), nor do I think talent can be taught. What can be taught is a set of skills and approaches. As far as performing an already composed piece of music, or acting to a script, sure that's an art. Even playing note for note under a conductor, what you do within that limited space will be unique, even if that is in very subtle ways, to you, to the way you play and add expression. It's a more closed kind of art than just freely painting the broad strokes of your imagination. If you paint a super-realist work from a photograph, however, that is still art, but bears a close resemblance to performing someone else's music. Just my opinions. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:20:55 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: [loud-fans] all night radio Speaking of ELO fetishes and such, today is the official release date of All Night Radio's "Spirit Radio Frequency", which I think a lot of Loud-fans would dig. Sub Pop has an MP3 of the opening track up for download, and it's quite representative, so whatta ya waiting for? http://www.subpop.com/scripts/main/bands_page.php?bandname=All+Night+Radio Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:40:19 -0600 From: Holly Kruse Subject: Re: [loud-fans] History of Dating Jeez... I feel like this is the kind of fun that I should be having as I speed toward my doddering middle age in my post-partnered state, because I missed out experiences this kinetic and flourescent in my early 20s pre-partnered state. Or perhaps I will just have to live vicariously through Briana's past. It seems like there would be worse ways to spend one's life! Especially when one lives in the friendly confines of Tulsa, Oklahoma. > when i was about 21 or 22, a friend of mine and i went to the thursday night > male dancer gig at the local pizzaria in Santa Maria, CA. Santa Maria is > made up of mostly retirees and agricultural workers, plus a community > college. not exactly Brazil. i was a student in the technical theatre > program, and my cohort was an acting student. she was also a nut, which is > apparently contagious. > > we ended up bringing the strippers back to her apartment, turning on the > blacklight, and splattering eachother with some detergent or other that > glows. i'm fairly sure there were bubbles at some point. Holly holly-kruse@utulsa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 01:29:44 -0500 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: [loud-fans] FOW > That would be "Yours And Mine." And yes, it's lovely. The mid-tempo > stretch gave me a lot of trouble too--after the fullisade of the first > three tracks, the lackadaisical "Hackensack" seems to strip all the gears. This sort of change-up isn't that unusual in pop records, though, is it? I love "Hackensack" - it's really hard to write a simple melody like that, vary it enough to escape cliche, and maintain the emotional tone. My other favorite cuts are "Little Red Lights" and "Supercollider." - Dan ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V4 #50 ******************************