From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #187 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, June 26 2003 Volume 03 : Number 187 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffre] Re: [loud-fans] PIL [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] PIL [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] PIL [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville ["David Seldin" ] [loud-fans] Phair Imitates Lolita, The Riddles? (ns) [dana-boy@juno.com] Re: [loud-fans] Phair Imitates Lolita, The Riddles? (ns) ["Stefaan Hurts"] Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] PIL [JRT456@aol.com] [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. [Gil Ray ] Re: [loud-fans] PIL ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] [loud-fans] Liz Phair and Jewel [glenn mcdonald ] Re: [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. [glenn mcdonald ] Re: [loud-fans] PIL/Mandy [steve ] [loud-fans] Kurt Heasley in a spandex mini-skirt [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffr] Re: [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. [Gil Ray ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:08:48 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville Quoting Stewart Mason : > I can't see that it matters much to me whether or not Liz Phair is > telling > the truth -- it's not like she led troops into war on the base of > information that she knew was fraudulent. Plus, she's every bit as elected as the guy who did. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:21:01 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL Quoting Jenny Grover : > that I think she's pretty. Still, I'm not sure it's any more fair > (avoiding the pun here) to get down and dirty about picking on a > celebrity's chosen career move than anyone else's. If she does lack > confidence and does things in a desperate bid for acceptance, that's > kinda sad, but pretty typical of a huge chunk of the population. I can't agree: By foregrounding her image in the way she has recently, and by explicitly connecting that image to her hopes for commercial success, Phair is implicitly putting that image up for public judgment. Lots of people write songs at home that they never play for anyone else: yes, if you stumbled across one of those homemade cassettes and criticized it to a bunch of people who knew the performer, that would be unfair. But criticizing Liz Phair's image as celebrity is no more unfair than criticizing her music: both are being put forth for public consumption. I'll second most of Joe's comments, too. Fact is, I think Phair largely succeeds in looking that image - but I just think it's sad she chooses to try to do so. > But when I read blanket statements on here like that pretty much any > woman who tries to look younger than her age generally ends up looking > worse, that intelligent women over a certain age don't try to, judging > what a woman should wear by her age, her hip shape, etc., well it just > starts sounding arbitrary, shallow, sexist, and even a bit misogynist to > me. Can't buy this either. To criticize the appearance of a particular woman, or a particular look adopted by women, isn't to criticize all women. If you think, say, mustaches look idiotic on men, are you male-bashing for saying so? No - you're just expressing your taste in male facial hair. And if you qualify that comment by saying, well, I just don't like mustaches on blond men, or on men of a certain age, etc., you're still not male-bashing - you're just detailing that expression of taste. I think the problem is that the culture at large *does* have areas of misogyny, particularly around two of the issues you mention (age, hips). So it becomes difficult, perhaps, *not* to read a man's criticism of anything relating to a particular woman's age, or hips, as being somehow reflective of his feelings about women's age generally, or the state of their hips, etc. I probably would have been smarter to say that those shorts Phair's wearing in whatever photo it was - the black, spandex-looking ones - made her shoulders look big...or even better, don't mention the shorts, just note that the whole look emphasizes her shoulders a bit more than I like. Or not - - but really, I think I should have a right to express *my* tastes w/o assuming that I intend those tastes to be enforceable in any way, or that I'm going to do any serious judging of a person based on those things. The problem is, it's almost as if you're suggesting that I shouldn't be able to express such opinions, or that if I do, they somehow automatically apply to women generally in a way that's sexist. I suppose, in the most trivial sense, it's "sexist" to make any statements about women generally - but it's as sexist as making general statements about mustaches. Incidentally - as long as we're talking about gender stereotypes - why exactly should we assume that people generally, women specifically, *want* to look younger? Isn't that privileging younger women's looks over older women's looks? One *could* interpret that as more misogynist (because strongly in line w/prevailing sexist cultural norms) than arguing that one likes women who look their own age... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. :: That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! :: --Thomas Pynchon, _Vineland_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:30:11 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >The problem is, it's almost as if you're suggesting that I shouldn't be able >to express such opinions, or that if I do, they somehow automatically apply >to women generally in a way that's sexist. I suppose, in the most trivial >sense, it's "sexist" to make any statements about women generally - but it's >as sexist as making general statements about mustaches. > There probably are truly sexist ways of making statements about mustaches. But your statement appeared sexist because of how you said it and how you generalized it. If it wasn't meant that way, then fine. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. It sounded mean-spirited, though, not simply a statement of personal preference, and as though it were directed at women in general. >Incidentally - as long as we're talking about gender stereotypes - why >exactly should we assume that people generally, women specifically, *want* >to look younger? > Because most of them, that I have known, at any rate, say they would want to. And I never limited it to women. I also was just funning around a bit, because people do spend so much time talking, whether jokingly or seriously, about wishing they looked or felt or were younger than they are. In some people it becomes obsessive, even crippling, and that's a very sad thing. I think that society in general very much does privilege younger people's looks over older people's looks, (and often it's not limited to just looks) at least in America, and I think women do take the hit more than men do. I just had a birthday that weaker people would find scary. I've never backed away from birthdays. I don't lie about my age. I don't really care about my age. It doesn't stop me buying a fair number of my clothes in the juniors department. I'm not trying to make myself look like a teenager; I buy what fits and what I like the look of, both on the rack and on me. I find it sad when women, or men, find clothes they love and that fit their size and shape, but put them back because they are afraid it looks too "young" for them. > Isn't that privileging younger women's looks over older >women's looks? One *could* interpret that as more misogynist (because >strongly in line w/prevailing sexist cultural norms) than arguing that one >likes women who look their own age... > There's nothing at all wrong with saying you like women who look their own age! I never said that. It could be argued that there is something less than nice about saying, or seeming to say, that anyone you perceive as trying to look younger than her age usually makes herself look worse. It starts to take on the tone of a cultural endictment, and a fuddy-duddy one, that a woman of a particular age should learn her place and station and not try to rise out of it. If you aren't saying that, then I'm heartily thankful. I do think you left yourself open for misinterpretation, though. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:22:20 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL Quoting Jenny Grover : > But your statement appeared sexist because of how you said > it and how you generalized it. If it wasn't meant that way, then fine. > I'm sorry if I misunderstood. It sounded mean-spirited, though, not > simply a statement of personal preference, and as though it were > directed at women in general. Hmmm...what I said (I couldn't remember exactly, so I looked it up) was: "Oh, and re Jen's query on 'who wouldn't want to look 23?': Yes, but since it's not actually possible for people older than a certain age to actually look 23, and since the attempt at so doing usually makes them look not only older but pathetic at the same time, I'd say the answer to your question is 'once one considers whether it's possible, very few intelligent people over the age of 35.'" Note that at this point, the question hasn't been gendered yet. Then I said: "I mean, it's not as if Phair looks old or anything - it's just rather ridiculous for a woman in her mid-thirties to pretend she's 23 (or 18, or whatever)." ..which I suppose, given the last clause, could be interpreted as applying to women generally and not just (as the first part of the sentence says) Phair particularly. I'm thinking the perceived "mean-spiritedness" was in the cultural ether, and not in what I said or how I said it. As I said, issues of age, body, etc., are quite tetchy. > I find it sad when women, or men, find clothes they love and that fit their size and shape, but put them back because they are afraid it looks too "young" for them. Yeah...but as you implied, it's also sad when people buy those same clothes - - even when they don't "fit their size and shape" - because they're desperately trying to look younger. And it's at that point, btw, that my statement about "not only older but pathetic" kicks in. And I'm sorry to keep dragging Doug's nom de rock around like this. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:29:53 -0400 From: "David Seldin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey" To: "someone please...make it stop!!!!" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville > > Perhaps she should do that again. So: what album should Liz Phair write a > song-by-song response to? > > ..Jeff > How about "Liz Phair"? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:14:41 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >I'm thinking the perceived "mean-spiritedness" was in the cultural ether, >and not in what I said or how I said it. As I said, issues of age, body, >etc., are quite tetchy. > Actually, I think the mean-spirited interpretation came from your using the word "pathetic." >Yeah...but as you implied, it's also sad when people buy those same clothes >- even when they don't "fit their size and shape" - because they're >desperately trying to look younger. And it's at that point, btw, that my >statement about "not only older but pathetic" kicks in. > I don't think I said anything about people buying clothes that don't fit their size and shape in a quest to look younger, did I? I believe I said it's sad when people think they have to try desperately to look younger in order to be considered acceptible (and what I was thinking was more in terms of plastic surgery, starvation diets that become eating disorders, and an unhealthy preoccupation with things like expensive skin treatments). Certainly, I think most people want to look their best in whatever clothes they choose, for whatever reason. Some people don't seem to know, or care, if things don't fit their shapes well, but that's not necessarily pathetic, just a little unfortunate for them because there are people who will judge them harshly by it. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:11:41 -0400 From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] Phair Imitates Lolita, The Riddles? (ns) I keep thinking that we won't know if Phair is pathetic or not until we see the first few weeks' sales for the new album. And I'm already beginning to envision an argument that this crass move of hers is actually a ballsy artistic risk: Mike mentioned Metal Machine Music, but it's true that "Liz Phair" may replace that as the "biggest fuck-you ever from an artist with 'credibility' to their audience," and unlike Lou, Liz can't even pretend that her fans don't understand the new musical direction. I'm trying to think of other artists who've done something similar. But that's not why I wrote. I wrote because I downloaded this mix from eMusic called "I Know What Boys Like" that features a bunch of girl bands (mostly from the '80's) doing songs about boys, and I can't find any info on one of the bands: The Riddles. They have a really great little power poppy song called "Boys Are Poison." Apologies if they were all over the top 40 and I just wasn't paying attention. Who are/were they and what did they do? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:59:08 -0400 From: "Stefaan Hurts" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Phair Imitates Lolita, The Riddles? (ns) On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:11:41 -0400, dana-boy@juno.com said: > Mike mentioned Metal Machine Music, but it's true that "Liz Phair" > may replace that as the "biggest fuck-you ever from an artist with > 'credibility' to their audience," and unlike Lou, Liz can't even > pretend that her fans don't understand the new musical direction. > I'm trying to think of other artists who've done something similar. Well, our very own Scott wore too much blue eyeshadow in a desperate attempt to sell more copies of "Attractive Nuisance" to the large Britney Spears fanbase. - -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:59:39 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Hi again/ Ten years of Guyville In a message dated 6/25/03 1:49:50 PM, chris@sombertown.com writes: << "Enslaved"....that's a colorful choice of a word. Way to spin. >> Iraqis are currently celebrating their right to watch television that isn't government-controlled. Isn't it sad what kind of freedoms Americans take for granted? And anyone who was impressed by my rationalization for why not finding the weapons justifies the war should also admire how I avoided any mention of all the evidence we've found of Saddam's recent ownership of WMD's. I just came back from a screening of a film in which Gina Gershon's pathetic aging rock heroine makes Liz Phair look so cool. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:08:04 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL In a message dated 6/25/03 6:35:36 PM, sleeveless@zoominternet.net writes: << I don't think I said anything about people buying clothes that don't fit their size and shape in a quest to look younger, did I? >> Again, there's nothing sexist in criticizing Liz Phair's new look, since she didn't even choose what she wears. She let a bunch of men choose her clothes for her. If you're seeking some balance to all this, though, Mandy Moore is the first teen queen to make the Shaun Cassidy move with an upcoming album of covers by relatively hipsterish acts, including XTC. We can only hope, of course, that she covers Liz Phair. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:23:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. As for the Liz Phair makeover, I say whatever floats her boat, even if it is a sellout for more sales. Her music and her look are very sexy. I think she looks great, but my intentions may not be so noble...Nina Gordon's makeover seemed like the same sort of thing, but I'm also probably the only person on this list that liked that record (and the pictures!). Rock is very sexy, bring it on. If the move brings her enough $ to not work a real job, power to her. I'd do it in a heart beat, but would look even more pathetic with those deer ticks all over me. To even up the image bash-fest, how about Paul McCartney's dye job?! He's got a decent head of hair, but he insists on dying it such an unnatural brown! Yuck! He looks like an old man with a young man's hair! I'm sure his decision is not because of record label concerns, but just one trying to hold on to youth. Which actually, is ok with me too. If it makes him happy, that's fine. I will wince when I see it, but ultimately, it's his choice. At work we have a sales rep that is very bald. He used to sport an old hippie look with facial hair, bald head, but still hung on to his pony tail. One day, he arrived at work wearing the most godawful toupee I had ever seen. It really made him look ridiculous. Kind of like a mutant over-grown child with problems. But when I saw how confident and proud he seemed to be, just walking down the hallway, I thought, good for him! Like I said, whatever floats your boat. Speaking of weird trends, Stacey just brought home a cd(burn) of Cheap Trick's In Color lp that they just re-recorded with Steve Albini producing. Obviously they are jumping on the Scott/Aimee bandwagon here. Don't know if Cheap Trick are ever gonna release it or what, but it does rock. She also brought home an ep of John Auer and Ken Stringfellow solo stuff. Sounds like an unfinished demo to me. The first 3 songs are Auer's, the last 3 are Stringfellows. Surprisingly, I like Auer's tunes the best. The first song is a stunner, but the fact that the rest seem like demos without drum tracks sorta pisses me off. Way more than Liz Phair's new look. Gil np: Mag Fields; Get Lost God I love Stephin Merritt __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:45:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > Again, there's nothing sexist in criticizing Liz Phair's new look, since she > didn't even choose what she wears. She let a bunch of men choose her clothes > for her. If you're seeking some balance to all this, though, Mandy Moore is the > first teen queen to make the Shaun Cassidy move with an upcoming album of > covers by relatively hipsterish acts, including XTC. We can only hope, of course, > that she covers Liz Phair. Full track listing: http://www.mandymoore.com/mandyletter.html Waterboys, XTC, Joe Jackson, Joan Armatrading...right on! Most of the samples make it sound like overproduced crap, but more money in these people's pockets is good. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:28:54 -0400 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: [loud-fans] Liz Phair and Jewel Thanks for pointing out the online Liz Phair EP, I'm listening to it now. It's definitely better than the album. The problem with the album, it seems to me, isn't that Liz tried to sell out, it's that she's not much good at it. Her album would be improved even further by having somebody else write lyrics and sing instead of her. Whereas Jewel, I think, actually improves her album by being on it. But then, I'll take _Pieces of You_ over _Exile in Guyville_, too. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:33:46 -0400 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. > I'm also probably the only person > on this list that liked that record www.furia.com/twas/twas0310.html, scroll down to #9. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:02:16 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Liz Phair and Jewel Quoting glenn mcdonald : > Thanks for pointing out the online Liz Phair EP Musta missed that post: what's the URL? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: crumple zones:::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:06:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Liz Phair and Jewel On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, glenn mcdonald wrote: > Thanks for pointing out the online Liz Phair EP, I'm listening to it > now. It's definitely better than the album. While I was regretting buying the album earlier today, I bet that by "better than the album" you don't mean "it's impossible to listen to it, thereby preventing disappointment". Except that in my case this seems to be true. Safari pops up and informs me that "Fatal Error: Unknown Content ID." Anyone have an audio capture of the EP? This seems very silly. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:32:00 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. Quoting Gil Ray : > She also brought home an ep of John Auer and Ken > Stringfellow solo stuff. Sounds like an unfinished > demo to me. The first 3 songs are Auer's, the last 3 > are Stringfellows. Surprisingly, I like Auer's tunes > the best. The first song is a stunner, but the fact > that the rest seem like demos without drum tracks > sorta pisses me off. I think you should regard that as an invitation: "So, neither of you two can play drums for shit?"... > As for the Liz Phair makeover, I say whatever > floats her boat, even if it is a sellout for more > sales. Her music and her look are very sexy. I think > she looks great, but my intentions may not be so > noble...Nina Gordon's makeover seemed like the same > sort of thing, but I'm also probably the only person > on this list that liked that record (and the > pictures!). Rock is very sexy, bring it on. Yes, but I'm selfishly demanding that it be *my* kind of sexy, not sexy as defined by some marketing research survey. That's right: this is all about my disappointment that the new version of Liz Phair doesn't float my boat as well as the old one did. (Enter, grossly fat, nude, trudging through six inches of what we hope is mud:) Me! King of my own demographic fiefdom! Arrgh! Bring me my niche entire, I will devour it whole - I have no need of your puny knives and forks! (A small creature - like the one seen grooming Jabba the Hutt - murmurs officiously in one of my ears. I glower at it, then toss it into a nearby pustulent, bubbling pit.) The perfidious infidel has suggested that I Lack the Benjamins to rule my own demographic. Damnable nit! Pschitt! Bring me my Brush! (Pulls a sawed-off shotgun from unmentionable recesses; turns and fires it several times at a dead pig, painted blue, suspended by its feet at stage left.) ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: crumple zones:::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:34:12 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL Quoting "Joseph M. Mallon" : > Full track listing: > http://www.mandymoore.com/mandyletter.html May I just state my amusement that somehow, a thread on PIL has mutated into a thread on Mandy Moore? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: [clever or pithy quote] :: :: --[source of quote] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:01:41 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: [loud-fans] PIL/Mandy On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 09:08 PM, JRT456@aol.com wrote: > Again, there's nothing sexist in criticizing Liz Phair's new look, > since she > didn't even choose what she wears. She let a bunch of men choose her > clothes > for her. If you're seeking some balance to all this, though, Mandy > Moore is the > first teen queen to make the Shaun Cassidy move with an upcoming album > of > covers by relatively hipsterish acts, including XTC. We can only hope, > of course, > that she covers Liz Phair. Perhaps it is not too late to drop a line to whoever is choosing the songs for her. - - Steve - ---------- We used to have a host of words to describe the likes of Bill Bennett: prig, bluenose, Comstock, stuffed-shirt. Euphonious, and to the point. But Bennett's racket has pretty much driven those words underground. Like I said, gimme that Menckenian conservatism any day. - Josh Marshall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:05:25 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Kurt Heasley in a spandex mini-skirt Okay, so the new Lilys is growing on me. I was unpersuaded at first - I kept wondering why he apparently left half the tracks off of the songs - but the sparer sound, I think, works pretty well. And it's typical for me to have Lilys stuff grow slowly for me...the hooks take a while, but they tend to go deeper for all that. But what I'm really wondering - and shhh! nobody tell Mark Staples! - is what the graphic and cryptic phrase on the cover is all about. There appear to be tents, and flags, and the phrase "salix nonis." Google brings up one page - in Italian, and it appears to be about Masonic hoo-hah. Here's a bad translation (from babelfish at altavista.com): Salix Nonis Tengu This group of three words appears to XXV the Degree is for l?Apertura, is for the Closing. The rituale of from two explanations. Before it is introduced under shape of a oracolo or of a profezia, much imprecisa in its syntactic shape, and the second one asserts that these three words mean the?Riunione of the Tests Siblings that were until then separate to you. The nine first letters correspond to stretch that they mark to the fields of the different Degrees. These stretch carry equally of the names, but simple correspondence between these names does not seem is to us one and the letters. The five last ones designate the orifiamma. Traditionally, is interpreted Salix Nonis Tengu like l?anagramma of Lux Inens Agit Nos, that it means, literally?la inner Light makes us to act? and, traditionally?la Light that is in we guide. Here's the Italian (if anyone knows the language, feel free to provide a better translation): Salix Nonis Tengu Questo gruppo di tre parole compare al XXV Grado sia per lApertura, sia per la Chiusura. Il rituale ne da due spiegazioni. La prima si presenta sotto forma di un oracolo o di una profezia, assai imprecisa nella sua forma sintattica, e la seconda afferma che queste tre parole significano la Riunione dei Saggi Fratelli che erano fino allora separati. Le nove prime lettere corrispondono alle tende che marcano i campi dei differenti Gradi. Queste tende portano ugualmente dei nomi, ma non sembra esserci una semplice corrispondenza tra questi nomi e le lettere. Le cinque ultime designano gli orifiamma. Tradizionalmente, si interpreta Salix Nonis Tengu come lanagramma di Lux Inens Agit Nos, che significa, letteralmente, la Luce interiore ci fa agire e, tradizionalmente la Luce che h in noi ci guida. - -------- Hmmm...betcha those lyrical references to "Mystery School" have something to do with all this... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:22:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Phair, hair, trick, Posies.. - --- glenn mcdonald wrote: > > I'm also probably the only person > > on this list that liked that record > > www.furia.com/twas/twas0310.html, scroll down to #9. There you go! Thanks, I needed that! Gil __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #187 *******************************