From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #177 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, June 19 2003 Volume 03 : Number 177 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] statistics, etc. (ns) [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. ["G. Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. ["G. Andrew Hamlin" ] [loud-fans] various... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] various... [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] various... [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] a list. ["Paul King" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:44:13 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] statistics, etc. (ns) At 08:48 PM 6/18/2003 -0400, dana-boy@juno.com wrote: >And, have any eMusic people started working through this: >http://www.emusic.com/artist/10561/10561435.html > >Any recommendations? I've bought a few Cicadelic compilations over the years, usually when they're down to about a buck in the remainder bin. For the most part, this is real bottom-of-the-barrel stuff of interest only to the most hardcore '60s obscurantists. Your download times will be better spent elsewhere. Such as on Violeta de Outono's WOMAN ON THE MOON: current Brazilian psych band takes its cues from the Brazilian psych bands of the late '60s, and actually makes something relatively current-sounding at the same time. S ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:14:33 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. Quoting Michael Zwirn : > > >Also agreed. Someone just the other day, and I can't remember where, > was > > >arguing that Bob Mould's post-Huskers work, both solo and w/Sugar, > was > > >better than his Huskers stuff. I'm sure there will be arguments > there... > > Wouldn't that have been a certain S. Miller, cited on > http://loudfamily.com/askscott.html from June 2, 2003? By Jove, I think he's got it! Funny that of all the sources to forget, I'd forget that one...and then mention it here. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: I suspect that the first dictator of this country will be called "Coach" :: --William Gass ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:17:00 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. Quoting Phil Fleming : > --- Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > And some I've listed: > > > > > > Talk Show (Stone Temple Pilots) > > > Journey (Santana) > > > > Ah, but you're missing the "original band must be > > worthy" criterion. > > And the Santana I was speaking of was the 1969-1972 > version. I thought that version was pretty worthy. Gotta get my eyes checked - for some reason I thought Journey was the prototype and the subsequent example was, I dunno, the Neal Schon Band (is there such a thing?) Cuz I agree: early Santana's pretty worthy. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" lp: Firesign Theatre _Waiting for the Electrician or Someone Like Him_ (probably their weakest one, though) lv: _Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter_: Hamlin's gotta have this one, right? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:19:53 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. Quoting Stefaan Hurts : > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:06:39 -0400, "Jenny Grover" said: > > One thing that really annoys me is whatever vocal treatment that is > > (a vocoder maybe? I don't know what they use.) that Cher uses on "Do > > You Believe", and Kid Rock uses on that ballad that was a hit, and it > > shows up a lot in toppy poppy stuff. What IS that thing, and is > > there a weapon we can develop to destroy it? > > They have indeed developed such a weapon. It's called a weapon of ass > destruction and they're still looking for it in the Iraqi desert. As chronicled in the new hit waxing, "Two Truck Trailers and a No-Fly Zone"... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:30:48 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. Quoting "Joseph M. Mallon" : > As for annoying sounds, who finds booming, gated drums (a la 80s > alt-pop) > difficult to listen to? Hands? Yeah, those '80s faux-handclaps were pretty annoying too. ; ) What's really amazing is just how common that Big Drums sound became - it's like you couldn't make a record without it. I'd really like to know (and I know we've discussed this before) what it is about certain high-gloss, artificial '80s production styles that dates so poorly for me (even though I can still like some records w/that sound - good thing, or I'd have to throw out most the decade...), whereas other very time-specific, artificial sounds (lotsa '60s stuff) doesn't bother me at all? My only theory is that '80s production, synths in particular, tended to be *really* treble-intensive. (I was playing w/the bandpass filter in my sound software, and it's interesting to me - almost philosophically so - that the highest frequencies by themselves are rather annoying, yet if you cut those very frequencies out, the remaining sound is dead and lifeless.) Oh - every once in a while a song will randomly insert itself in my brain, forcing me to go out and obtain a copy - last week that song was David Essex's "Rock On" - and may I say, one of the coolest arrangement and production ever on that one: that weird dry sound, the swooping string section followed by that pocket big-band, and that *l-o-w* bass (downtuned to a B, in fact), plus that wicked slapback echo... I mean, talk about completely artificial: it's like every note on the record is sealed in its own vacuum pack. I cheated, actually...the hiss removal wouldn't quite get rid of enough hiss, and so in that middle part after he says "Jimmy Dean," I muted into complete silence what was supposed to be silence anyway. Works better that way... I have no idea if he ever recorded anything else remotely as interesting...I remember the single's b-side from '73 or whenever as a sort of sub-Bowie cabaret thing...not very impressive, but I haven't heard it for literally decades. ..Jeff, amazed that, uh, we're actually talking about music on the list! Even some of Sc*tt M*ller's! J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. :: That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! :: --Thomas Pynchon, _Vineland_ ps: great quote on Mr. Pynchon: even though I like reading him, I get the criticism - from James Wood, whose new novel is reviewed in the latest _Harper's_: "Readers of Pynchon often mistake bright lights for signs of habitation." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:34:51 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. Quoting dana-boy@juno.com: > np: Black Dice (Who wants to be in charge of explaining the distinction > between Black Dice, Black Keys, Black Lipstick, etc. at the end of the > year? I'm currently busy with my Unrest/Unwound/Unsane duties.) You forgot Dischord's Black Eyes... Jeff Ceci n'est pas une .sig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:37:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. > Gotta get my eyes checked - for some reason I thought Journey was the > prototype and the subsequent example was, I dunno, the Neal Schon Band > (is there such a thing?) Not as such; however, AllMusic lists six solo albums for Schon, plus one album (well, one plus a greatest hits collection, go figure) with Jan Hammer, plus two albums with Bad English. > lp: Firesign Theatre _Waiting for the Electrician or Someone Like Him_ > (probably their weakest one, though) I dunno, 1998's GIVE ME IMMORTALITY OR GIVE ME DEATH was sadly wack. I'm not an expert, but DON'T CRUSH THAT DWARF, HAND ME THE PLIERS sounds great on liquid acid. > lv: _Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter_: Hamlin's gotta have this one, right? Damn, DVD only. Way past time for me to join the 21st Century. But I haven't wrestled the last one to a draw yet. Gotta love a movie where one woman plays "Singing Pedestrian, Nurse, Atheist, Cadaver #2, Wresting [sic] Girl #2, etc," Andy Op erating [sic] Michigan Drive-In Theaters Miracle Twin Drive-In, Burton Opened in 1973. I think it's a good omen that both of Genesee County's drive-ins have two screens. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi-Way Drive-In, Carsonville Michigan's oldest existing drive-in, it opened in 1948. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Capri Drive-In, Coldwater Opened in 1964. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ford/Wyoming Drive-In, Dearborn This one is the world's largest drive-in, with NINE screens, rivaled in number only by a drive-in in Arizona, I believe. Opened in 1950. Screens 6 through 9 were added in 1990. Screens 1-5 are open year-round. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Five-Mile Drive-In, Dowagiac Five miles north of Dowagiac, and ten miles southeast of the Sunset in Hartford. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- US-23 Drive-In, Flint Opened in 1951, when Fenton Road was US-23. A Kessel grocery store nearby was once called the "US-23 Supermarket". - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sunset Drive-In, Hartford Opened in ca. 1950. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cherry Bowl Drive-In, Honor Opened in 1953. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Devil's Lake Drive-In Church , Manitou Beach (heck, it's close enough!) What the heck is a drive-in church anyway? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Getty 4 Drive-In, Muskegon Confusion abounds. Everyone thought that this would close in 2001. It's still open in 2002, and may re-open in 2003. Let's hope it does. - --from http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/cactusbob2k2/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:54:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. > I have no idea if [David Essex] ever recorded anything else remotely as > interesting... He's apparently real good in THAT'LL BE THE DAY, and STARDUST. Alongside Keith Moon. Oh, and Ringo's in the first one, but not the second one. Damn, back to movies again (well, the first *was* inspired by a Nilsson song), Andy Work Week at the Prep School Every third kid I taught at prep school was Holden Caulfield, the other two had such dysfunction concealed by eloquence (learned from suppers with au pairs or mothers who minored in theater) that they seemed happy in the great unhappy way school makes everybody. This Holden was feral beneath every sweater sent him in the mail and arrogant on Monday Tuesday, humble Wednesday Thursday, then cocked beyond my powers to hinder him, in a nice way, and so compulsively anti-authoritarian he'd turn on himself for answering when he could have continued reeking in his articulate silence, and scratch and scowl. I wanted to let him off the hook that held him like a side of beef and so return him to the mantle where he was a photograph in silver of a figure to behold in cardboard armor and a foil crown. I wanted him to let me off for my opinions said with the force of convictions, then graded as they reappeared in essays on Emerson. And for his intuited understanding of my trying too hard the servant's groveling and the pal's compassion from a distance, please may breaks be given. I earned my patronized living. He earned a B minus, really a C, inflated so he would have around him the space of accomplishment he hated, inflated so I would not have to face what it was, in a nice way, I did. for Dev Milburn - --Bruce Smith, from http://slate.msn.com/id/2084466/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:56:34 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] various... Quoting Stewart Mason : Your download times will be better spent elsewhere. > > Such as on Violeta de Outono's WOMAN ON THE MOON: current Brazilian > psych > band takes its cues from the Brazilian psych bands of the late '60s, and > actually makes something relatively current-sounding at the same time. Stewart mistyped the title (or eMusic did) if you're searching by title: it's _Woman on the Mountain_. Quoting Aaron Milenski : > >As for annoying sounds, who finds booming, gated drums (a la 80s > alt-pop) > >difficult to listen to? Hands? > > Ack! Me again...I blame David Bowie's LET'S DANCE album for this one... I think you're right about Bowie but wrong about the album: I'd trace it back to "Sound and Vision" (although I like the sound on that track). Quoting Jenny Grover : > errmmm.... maybe. Does enjoying visual art require a context? For some > people, certainly. But what about those of us who are excited and > intrigued when confronted with a type of art of music that we don't have > a handy experiential reference for, and we like it. And sometimes we > like it largely FOR that. Or would you argue in that case that we > require a context from which to appreciate the difference? Okay, enough > philosophizing for now. I'm going to eat a bagel. But what sort of cuisinary context do you have for that bagel? I guess I'd say that it's impossible for anything to not have a context... To answer your question about new stuff, presumably, those people either are relating it, knowingly or not, to something they already like (whether by similarity or contrast), or the very newness or unknownness of it is what they respond to. There's loads of visual context for different kinds of art: certainly, if it's at all representational (that's obvious), but color, pattern, composition, are all things that are given to a lesser degree by our everyday visual environment and certainly to a greater degree if we already like any kind of visual art. Humans are aesthetic creatures to the core, I'd argue: there's no such thing as a culture that doesn't have decorative artifacts, even if those artifacts also have other cultural functions. Even something as basic as clothing or hair demonstrates an aesthetic sense. Anyway, back to the originating blat: I don't think it follows that one *has* to know Bartok (say) in order to like Birdsongs of the Mesozoic; only that if a critic's going to imply that the band failed in what it's trying to do, it helps to actually understand what the band's trying to do. Had the critic honestly just said, "I don't like this and I don't understand it, but you might disagree," then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the combination of stating "it's pretentious, in that I'm asserting that the artist is making claim to some artistic goal that's beyond them" and also completely miscategorizing the music ("ambient jazz": and Matt's "reasoning" there is dead on*) that makes the review suck. * I once saw a *Philip Glass* recording filed under JAZZ at some record store. The large question mark above my head was probably visible - until I made much the same equation Matt derived: "ah...the *saxophones*..." ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:06:11 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. At Wednesday 6/18/2003 09:37 PM -0700, G. Andrew Hamlin wrote: > > lv: _Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter_: Hamlin's gotta have this one, right? > >Damn, DVD only. Way past time for me to join the 21st Century. But I >haven't wrestled the last one to a draw yet. > >Gotta love a movie where one woman plays "Singing Pedestrian, Nurse, >Atheist, Cadaver #2, Wresting [sic] Girl #2, etc," Don't bother. JCVH left me pretty bored (I've got the DVD), though there were a few inspired scenes - Jesus vs. the Atheists, for one. It is *extremely* low budget, and not in a charming way. But at least it's not pretentious. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:13:50 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] various... At 11:56 PM 6/18/2003 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Quoting Stewart Mason : > > Your download times will be better spent elsewhere. >> >> Such as on Violeta de Outono's WOMAN ON THE MOON: current Brazilian >> psych >> band takes its cues from the Brazilian psych bands of the late '60s, and >> actually makes something relatively current-sounding at the same time. > >Stewart mistyped the title (or eMusic did) if you're searching by title: >it's _Woman on the Mountain_. So it is. Mea culpa. >Anyway, back to the originating blat: > >I don't think it follows that one *has* to know Bartok (say) in order to >like Birdsongs of the Mesozoic; only that if a critic's going to imply that >the band failed in what it's trying to do, it helps to actually understand >what the band's trying to do. Had the critic honestly just said, "I don't >like this and I don't understand it, but you might disagree," then I >wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the combination of stating "it's >pretentious, in that I'm asserting that the artist is making claim to some >artistic goal that's beyond them" and also completely miscategorizing the >music ("ambient jazz": and Matt's "reasoning" there is dead on*) that makes >the review suck. Charity and I had this conversation tonight while we were watching a ghastly animated video for Pink Floyd's "Welcome to the Machine" on VH1 Classic. Charity, whose interest in Floyd ends with the Syd Barrett era, said, "Okay, so is this pretentious?" Me: "Song or video?" C: "Both." Me: "Hm. Well, I define pretentious as 'My reach exceeds my grasp, but that's not stopping me.' So the song isn't pretentious because I think it does what they wanted it to do. However, this video is pretentious, because they clearly had enough money for three minutes' worth of animation and it's a six-minute song." C: "Which is why there are these endless stills that are supposed to be thoughtful and meditative, but clearly they're just there so they don't have to draw any more frames!" Then that video was replaced by Quarterflash's "Harden My Heart" and I talked about how the version my brother and I used to sing in junior high was called "Pardon My Fart." VH1 Classic causes the most interesting conversations. no idea there was a video for the Primitives' "Way Behind Me," S ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:15:05 -0400 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] various... Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >But what sort of cuisinary context do you have for that bagel? > I must say that I did recognize its shape when I bought it, but I really didn't know what flavor it was until I took a bite out of it, since there was no sign on the tray saying what flavor it was. I was attracted by the unexpected display of poppy seeds on the bagel's cover, but had no idea what the actual contents would be like. I did, however, jump to the conclusion, based on past bagel experience, that it would be good with butter, and I was right, but butter was a pretty safe choice. Safer than, say, lox, had it turned out to be a fruit bagel. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:27:58 -0400 From: "Paul King" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. > Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe (Yes) I completely agree here. I purchased a self-titled album of them from a delete bin in an absent-minded fashion because I liked the album cover (not paying attention to who was on the album or thinking for 5 minutes that this band is 4/5ths of Yes, or that even the cover art looked like other Yes albums). But it sounds too much like Yes, and perhaps a signal that they had nothing new to offer, and had no rights to the band name. No, I don't *usually* make purchases in that manner. :-) > Journey (Santana) Hey, anyone remember that there was a video arcade game based on the members of Journey? PJK Date sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] a list. To: loud-fans@smoe.org > And some I've listed: > > Talk Show (Stone Temple Pilots) > Three Fish (Pearl Jam) > Journey (Santana) > Sweet 75/Eyes Adrift (Nirvana) > The Doors 1971- (The Doors 1967-71) > Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe (Yes) > > Phil F., who really liked Tin Machine's first record, > and totally disagrees with glenn's assessment with the > Gravy. > > --- glenn mcdonald wrote: > > A few more I'd have listed: > > > > The Style Council (The Jam) > > .O.rang (Talk Talk) > > Josh Clayton-Felt (School of Fish) > > Gravy (Cavedogs) > > Beats International (Housemartins) > > Iommi (Black Sabbath) > > Mark Burgess/The Reegs (The Chameleons) > > Sophie Ellis-Bextor (theaudience) > > Vitamin C (Eve's Plum) > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #177 *******************************