From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #97 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, April 3 2003 Volume 03 : Number 097 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Berkeley Fun (ns?) ["me" ] Re: [loud-fans] CD swap review [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] WAD? [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] WAD? ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] CD swap review [Dave Walker ] [loud-fans] high ick content; not re:CD swap review [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] Berkeley Fun (ns?) ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] CD swap review ["G. Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] WAD? [Aaron Mandel ] RE: [loud-fans] what the? ["G. Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: [loud-fans] WAD? [Phil Fleming ] [loud-fans] Whitestripes Are Dandy (ns) [Dana Paoli ] [loud-fans] Epoxies Are Dandy (ns) ["jer fairall" ] RE: [loud-fans] what the? ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] RE: [loud-fans] what the? ["John Swartzentruber" ] Re: [loud-fans] WAD? [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] WAD? ["me" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 00:18:33 -0800 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Berkeley Fun (ns?) if you're feeling adventurous and the weather is nice, there's always the Albany Bulb. i've seen pictures but haven't been there. if you're interested, i can track down info. it's sort of a modern sculpture garden. grafitti-ish in nature. someone else on the list may know more about it than i do... brianna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holly Kruse" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:54 PM Subject: [loud-fans] Berkeley Fun (ns?) > I know that this list is largely constituted by > representatives of the Bay Area intelligensia > , > so it seemed the logical place to go to seek > answers to the question of: what's the best > way to pass time in Berkeley, CA between > the noon hour (my ETA in Berkeley) and 7:00 > p.m. (when the 2 1/2 hour public meeting in > Albany that I'm there to attend gets underway)? > Or to engage in local fun after the meeting? > My ritual historically is to poke around the > record and book stores on/around Telegraph > when in Berkeley. Eating lunch and dinner would > probably be good ideas too. Napping will > undoubtedly play a part during my day. But if > anyone has good suggestions for passing time in > a wakeful state in Berkeley this Thursday after- > noon, I certainly would love to hear them. > > I apologize for any nonsense and/or typos in > the message... it was typed under the influence > of 1/2 of an Ambien. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions! > > > > Holly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:55:17 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD swap review George Mastalir wrote: >>"Read It In Books (original single)" -- Echo and the Bunnymen >> >>Did the Big Three ever release anything? This debut single, a >>McCullough/Cope co-write, has always been my favorite Bunnymen song. >> >> > >So much better than the album version, which drags _Crocodiles_ almost to a >halt. > > George, didn't I send you this one? It's so much better than the album version (and so impossible to find in its original form) that I shelled out for the box set mainly to get this, which is not to say there aren't other fine alternates, singles, and what-not on the box set. Interestingly enough, in the liner notes the band say they can't even stand to listen to this version, they think it's so awful! My opinion is they should have stuck a bit more to this kind of sound, and not gone so pompous as the years progressed. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:09:53 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Toren Subject: [loud-fans] WAD? > > So I guess those would be weapons of ASS > destruction?! WAD? how long will it be before the porn industry steals that phrase?_ but Gil coined it! RT ===== "Monotheistic religion has always brought out the best in us humans; thank you so much for the idea of a vengeful supernatural entity who rewards people in the afterlife! That shit makes a lot of sense!" http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war17.html http://www.angrylambie.com Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:04:09 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? <> The fine folks at Evil Angel Video used the title "Weapons Of Ass Destruction" last year...although no catapults figured into the plot. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:09:49 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? I'll never forget from back in the first Iraq war, one of the CNN folk getting on the air, stating something to the effect of all of the Iraqi missles being gone (shot at once?), and saying, "they have shot their wad, as it were." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:36:15 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD swap review On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 11:38 PM, Jenny Grover wrote: > Apparently the Chinese pursued the biological weapon idea by literally > lobbing shit bombs into beseiged cities, containers of shit and > gunpowder with fuses, which were lit and the bombs lobbed in, I > believe by catapult. Tying this back to music, there's a techno label: http://www.shitkatapult.com -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:03:31 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] high ick content; not re:CD swap review On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Jenny Grover wrote: > Apparently the Chinese pursued the biological weapon idea by literally > lobbing shit bombs into beseiged cities, containers of shit and > gunpowder with fuses, which were lit and the bombs lobbed in, I believe > by catapult. jeez. that wasn't in the overview of BW use in the course i recently finished working on. there's some doubt apparently as to whether the decaying horse thing was a deliberate attempt to infect the populace or just to damage morale. all of it is pretty disgusting, but i thought the smallpox-saturated blankets distributed to native americans was about the nadir. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:40:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Berkeley Fun (ns?) On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Holly Kruse wrote: > I know that this list is largely constituted by > representatives of the Bay Area intelligensia > , > so it seemed the logical place to go to seek > answers to the question of: what's the best > way to pass time in Berkeley, CA between > the noon hour (my ETA in Berkeley) and 7:00 > p.m. (when the 2 1/2 hour public meeting in > Albany that I'm there to attend gets underway)? Before the meeting, you can drive about 10 min. to the Berkeley campus, which is lovely this time of year. You can go to Mod Lang, just south of the campus on University & Shattuck, for all your indie/dance music needs, and/or Comic Relief, next door to Mod Lang, for your graphic novel needs. The Berkeley Public Library, on Shattuck & Kittridge, about 6 blocks from Mod Lang (turn the corner where the Indian place is and walk toward the Shattuck Theatre), is huge and very well-stocked. The Albany Bulb is right next to Golden Gate Fields. It was a pile of construction waste which has been left to nature. It's got trails and leads to the water, but most interestingly, it's the site of a bizarre public art installation by a collective called Sniff. http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/06/132442.php http://www.fletcho.com/art/ After the meeting, you can go to The Albatross on the right side of San Pablo as you drive toward University. They've got popcorn (25 cents for a bowl, all you can eat, self-serve), and lots of board games and trivia contests. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 12:44:01 -0800 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Berkeley Fun (ns?) At 12:40 PM 4/2/03 -0800, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: >Before the meeting, you can drive about 10 min. to the Berkeley campus, >which is lovely this time of year. You can go to Mod Lang, just south of >the campus on University & Shattuck, Um...west, I think. Otherwise, what Joe said. :) Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Canst thou draw out leviathan with a hook? The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Job_, chapter 41, verse 1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:07:24 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? > I'll never forget from back in the first Iraq war, one of the CNN folk > getting on the air, stating something to the effect of all of the Iraqi > missles being gone (shot at once?), and saying, "they have shot their > wad, as it were." Wonder if he got in as much trouble as Geraldo Rivera. Or even Peter Arnett. Is it significant that nobody's talking about the new White Stripes? (Lucinda Williams either come to think of it...) Andy If protesters are not creating an immediate hazard, even without a permit, I doubt that the government has the right to corral folks and hold them, says John Strait, an associate professor of law at Seattle University. Government cannot interfere with the reasonable exercise of First Amendment freedoms. It can regulate time, place, and manner within public safety considerations, but that doesnt normally require shutting down a demonstration. Let me be clear: Only once did I see protesters do anything that might be a threat to public safety. That happened when a few anarchists sprinted onto First Avenue for a moment. Thats not to say that protesters were angels. After being hemmed in by the cops, they were quite mad and several used the occasion to taunt the copsbut, of course, they did it from the sidewalk. And someone spray painted an anarchist symbol on the window of a First Avenue Starbucks. I want to be clear about something else: This theft of the First Amendment went on right under the noses of Seattles media. They were all there: the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, The Seattle Times, KING-TV, KIRO-TV, KOMO-TV, and KCPQ-TV. Not one of them mentioned that protesters had been denied their rights to free speech and assembly or considered that police were overzealous in routing the crowd. Youd think that a group of reporters, all highly dependent upon the First Amendment, would be a bit more sensitive to the gelding of free speech. But they arent the only timid ones. The office of Mayor Greg Nickels refused to comment on Saturdays events, deferring all questions to the police. The police say that two elements taken togetherNot in Our Names refusal to get a march permit and police intelligence gathering that suggested the protests organizers wanted to block downtown trafficforced their hand. Still that leaves me, a relative newcomer to this city, to wonder how this supposedly progressive-liberal city turned into one where the police get to decide to whom the First Amendment applies based upon what they think they know about a group before it even acts. - --Philip Dawdy, from http://seattleweekly.com/features/0313/war-dawdy.php ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:21:02 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD swap review > George Mastalir wrote: > >>>"Read It In Books (original single)" -- Echo and the Bunnymen >>> >>>Did the Big Three ever release anything? This debut single, a >>>McCullough/Cope co-write, has always been my favorite Bunnymen song. Not sure how any of them relate to Echo and the Bunnymen, but at least three Big Threes released things: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=4:13:59|PM&sql=B5ifjzffhehok http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=4:13:59|PM&sql=Bnr5m96oo3ep5 http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=4:13:59|PM&sql=Bgc60tr49kl3x This produces of course the mystical number nine...number nine...number nine... Andy I've taken LSD twice in my life, had a blast both times. I'm not likely to do it again, though, since it aestheticizes everything and I'd hate to become an aesthete. Insights parade before my eyes like handsome glorious things, and I'm reduced to waving at them in admiration. Also, the aesthetic judgment can supersede other equally pertinent ones. (John Wsjtowicz: "A 'rule' that I think LSD might erase by accident is 'if you leap out of a window or from the top of a high object, you will get killed or maim yourself for life.' And I can easily imagine myself, while tripping, reasoning, 'Yes, but after all that's just one little criterion, and just one single jump!' ") In any event, this was the first time. I was 24, in New York City. - --Frank Kogan, from his review of James Chance's IRRESISTIBLE IMPULSE box set, at http://villagevoice.com/issues/0314/kogan.php ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, G. Andrew Hamlin wrote: > Is it significant that nobody's talking about the new White Stripes? I don't know, but the new Radiohead -- sorry; the unfinished, unmixed copy of the new Radiohead which was leaked onto the Internet recently -- is pretty good. I'm eager to hear the real thing. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:04:44 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] what the? > http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html Interesting related article here: http://salon.com/tech/feature/2003/03/27/spam_fighter/index.html Speaking of Wendy & Lisa, the former plays on Lisa Germano's upcoming new one, Andy Hong Kong Actor Leslie Cheung, 46, Dies Wed Apr 2, 7:56 AM ET By HELEN LUK, Associated Press Writer HONG KONG - Leslie Cheung (news) Kwok-wing, a pop singer and actor who played a homosexual Chinese opera singer who commits suicide in the Oscar-nominated "Farewell My Concubine," has died after leaping from a hotel. He was 46. Cheung's roles as openly gay characters set him apart from other Chinese film stars, and parallels to his tragic part in "Concubine" were inescapable after he plunged to his death Tuesday. "Life Imitating Art?" asked a headline in the United Daily News of Taiwan, where Cheung had a loyal following in addition to his many fans in Hong Kong and mainland China. "Leslie used to jokingly call himself a legend," said Wong Kar-wai, a Hong Kong director who worked with Cheung on many of his best-known films. "We, too, called him by this name. But no one had ever imagined a legend would be consummated this way." Born in Hong Kong in 1956, Cheung rose to superstardom as a singer with a bad-boy image in the 1980s. Proving himself adaptable, Cheung followed up his musical successes with a distinguished film career, often in homosexual roles that are uncommon in Chinese-language movies. Cheung played a gay man who moved to Argentina with his male lover in "Happy Together," directed by Wong. Cheung also appeared in other Wong films, including "Days of Being Wild" and "Ashes of Time." Wong's statement mourned the "tremendous loss." "Leslie Cheung was a great artist and a true friend," Wong said. "Through all the days we worked together, we shared great moments and the occasional different point of view. This is because we are all dreamers." Cheung had recently been nominated for best actor in this coming Sunday's Hong Kong Film Awards, for his role in the horror film "Inner Senses." Cheung played the role of a man possessed by a dead girlfriend who tries to lure him into jumping to his death, though he was saved by a female lead who urged him to stay alive. Cheung died on April 1, and many fans thought at first that the broadcast news reports were a bad joke. The star plunged from the gym on the 24th floor of the five-star Mandarin Oriental hotel in Hong Kong's Central business district, according to Mandarin spokeswoman Sally De Souza. Police said they found a note on the body saying Cheung was plagued by "emotional problems." Wreaths from fans lined the hotel's entrance on Wednesday and the Web site of Cheung's Internet Fan Club proclaimed him a "legend forever." "Leslie, we will always remember you," the site said. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:24:14 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? I'm liking the new White Stripes just fine. :) I thought the Lucinda Williams disc won't be out for another 2 weeks. Phil F. NP... My band's demo CD, appropriately titled "SHITTYDEMO" - --- "G. Andrew Hamlin" wrote: > Is it significant that nobody's talking about the > new White Stripes? > > (Lucinda Williams either come to think of it...) > > Andy Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:15:06 GMT From: Dana Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] Whitestripes Are Dandy (ns) I'm liking the new White Stripes just fine. :) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds good to me as well. I really had planned to dislike them along the lines of the Strokes etc., but seem to have failed. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:07:52 -0500 From: "jer fairall" Subject: [loud-fans] Epoxies Are Dandy (ns) > I really had planned to dislike them along [the White Stripes] lines of the Strokes etc., but > seem to have failed. And as ELEPHANT seems to have been selected as the latest album that the store I work at will be playing non-stop, I'm not at all surprised to find that my plans to continue disliking them are suceeding so far. A great big Thank You, though, to all the people that endorsed that Epoxies album on here a while back. I think it was Stewart who described it as sounding like "the great lost new wave album of 1981," which is dead on. Jer U.S. National forest protections at risk! Send your objections by April 6: http://www.care2.com/go/z/4835 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 18:09:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] what the? On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, G. Andrew Hamlin wrote: > > http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html > > Interesting related article here: > > http://salon.com/tech/feature/2003/03/27/spam_fighter/index.html I believe the Bayesian filtering method is what SpamAssassin uses to do its wonderful work. Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 21:52:49 -0500 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] what the? On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 18:09:43 -0800 (PST), Joseph M. Mallon wrote: >I believe the Bayesian filtering method is what SpamAssassin uses to do >its wonderful work. I think SpamAssassin looks at specific words and patterns rather than using Bayesian filtering. POPFile is a free email proxy that does use Bayesian filtering if you want to check it out. Its homepage is http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:59:13 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: RE: [loud-fans] what the? On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, John Swartzentruber wrote: > On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 18:09:43 -0800 (PST), Joseph M. Mallon wrote: > > >I believe the Bayesian filtering method is what SpamAssassin uses to do > >its wonderful work. > > I think SpamAssassin looks at specific words and patterns rather than > using Bayesian filtering. the new release of Spam Assassin has a Bayesian module. - ------------------------------------------------- Mayo-Wells Media Workshop dmw@ http://www.mwmw.com mwmw.com Web Development * Multimedia Consulting * Hosting ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:01:19 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? Quoting Aaron Milenski : > I'll never forget from back in the first Iraq war, one of the CNN folk > getting on the air, stating something to the effect of all of the Iraqi > missles being gone (shot at once?), and saying, "they have shot their > wad, > as it were." Actually, this is closer to the original sense of the word than the sexual usage; this is from the OED entry on _wad_ (in particular item 4.b.): 4. a. A plug of tow, cloth, etc., a disk of felt or cardboard, to retain the powder and shot in position in charging a gun or cartridge. 1667 Phil. Trans. II. 476 Another [experiment]..is a Wooden Tampion..hollow'd towards the Bullet,..and..hollow likewise towards the Powder, and serving instead of a Wadd. 1669 STURMY Mariner's Mag. V. xii. 68 Put the Powder home gently, and after put in a good Wad..; then put in the Shot.., and after him another Wad. 1769 FALCONER Dict. Marine (1780), Wad, a quantity of old rope~yarns, hay, &c. rolled firmly together into the form of a ball, and used to confine the shot or shell..in the breech of a piece of artillery. 1856 STONEHENGE Brit. Sports I. I. ii. '5. 24 After using the powder-flask..drive down..a single piece of wadding; then pour in the charge of shot, drive down another wad, [etc.]. 1862 F. A. GRIFFITHS Artil. Man. (ed. 9) 112 No. 5 serves No. 3 with projectiles, wads, if necessary, and traverses. 1879 Cassell's Techn. Educ. I. 194/1 The escape of gas was prevented by means of a felt wad attached to the back of the cartridge. 1881 GREENER Gun 300 Wads are punched out of sheets of various materials by cutters fixed in a press. Those most commonly used are made of felts, cardboard, or jute. 1890 D. DAVIDSON Mem. Long Life ii. 34 We..rowed too closely past the Victory as she was firing her royal salute, and one of her wads just cleared our heads. b. In fig. phr. to shoot one's wad, to do all that one can do. Cf. to have shot one's bolt s.v. SHOOT v. 21b. colloq. (chiefly U.S.). 1914 Dialect Notes IV. 112 Shoot one's wad, to do or say what one can. 1970 A. CAMERON et al. Computers & O.E. Concordances 31 Well, I'm really not an expert on it. I've practically shot my wad. 1971 B. MALAMUD Tenants 8, I want to be thought of as a going concern, not a freak who had published a good first novel and shot his wad. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:16:20 -0800 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? > Actually, this is closer to the original sense of the word than the sexual > usage; > The escape of gas was > prevented by means of a felt wad attached to the back of the cartridge. unless you consider butt plugs. sorry. brianna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey" To: "I've never had salt flats for breakfast before..." Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [loud-fans] WAD? > Quoting Aaron Milenski : > > > I'll never forget from back in the first Iraq war, one of the CNN folk > > getting on the air, stating something to the effect of all of the Iraqi > > missles being gone (shot at once?), and saying, "they have shot their > > wad, > > as it were." > > Actually, this is closer to the original sense of the word than the sexual > usage; this is from the OED entry on _wad_ (in particular item 4.b.): > > 4. a. A plug of tow, cloth, etc., a disk of felt or cardboard, to retain > the powder and shot in position in charging a gun or cartridge. > > 1667 Phil. Trans. II. 476 Another [experiment]..is a Wooden > Tampion..hollow'd towards the Bullet,..and..hollow likewise towards the > Powder, and serving instead of a Wadd. 1669 STURMY Mariner's Mag. V. xii. 68 > Put the Powder home gently, and after put in a good Wad..; then put in the > Shot.., and after him another Wad. 1769 FALCONER Dict. Marine (1780), Wad, a > quantity of old rope~yarns, hay, &c. rolled firmly together into the form of > a ball, and used to confine the shot or shell..in the breech of a piece of > artillery. 1856 STONEHENGE Brit. Sports I. I. ii. '5. 24 After using the > powder-flask..drive down..a single piece of wadding; then pour in the charge > of shot, drive down another wad, [etc.]. 1862 F. A. GRIFFITHS Artil. Man. > (ed. 9) 112 No. 5 serves No. 3 with projectiles, wads, if necessary, and > traverses. 1879 Cassell's Techn. Educ. I. 194/1 The escape of gas was > prevented by means of a felt wad attached to the back of the cartridge. 1881 > GREENER Gun 300 Wads are punched out of sheets of various materials by > cutters fixed in a press. Those most commonly used are made of felts, > cardboard, or jute. 1890 D. DAVIDSON Mem. Long Life ii. 34 We..rowed too > closely past the Victory as she was firing her royal salute, and one of her > wads just cleared our heads. > > > b. In fig. phr. to shoot one's wad, to do all that one can do. Cf. to > have shot one's bolt s.v. SHOOT v. 21b. colloq. (chiefly U.S.). > > 1914 Dialect Notes IV. 112 Shoot one's wad, to do or say what one can. > 1970 A. CAMERON et al. Computers & O.E. Concordances 31 Well, I'm really not > an expert on it. I've practically shot my wad. 1971 B. MALAMUD Tenants 8, I > want to be thought of as a going concern, not a freak who had published a > good first novel and shot his wad. > > > ..Jeff > > J e f f r e y N o r m a n > The Architectural Dance Society > www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html > :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #97 ******************************