From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #84 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Saturday, March 22 2003 Volume 03 : Number 084 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] free music (not eMusic) [Aaron Mandel ] [loud-fans] curious coincidences - old TV [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] kinks [Mike Curley ] [loud-fans] attn; Steven Matrick [Jeffrey Norman ] Re: [loud-fans] kinks [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies [Bill Silvers ] Re: [loud-fans] Return of The King news ["G. Andrew Hamlin" ] Re: *****SPAM***** Re:[loud-fans] pop advice? [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: Mr. Nelson and MR. **** SPAM **** [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] 10,9,8... (ns) [glenn mcdonald ] Re: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies [*THAT* Matt Weber Subject: [loud-fans] free music (not eMusic) At www.flobots.com you can download the entirety of one of the better hip-hop albums I've heard in a while. It's smart (though I think they're misusing the word "onomatopoeia") and smooth-flowing lyrically, with a nifty variety of sounds in the music. And, like all free things, it's free. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:53:36 -0800 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: *****SPAM***** Re:[loud-fans] pop advice? At 05:43 PM 3/21/03 -0500, dmw wrote: >i'm happy to complain about some of the things i don't like about 70's >production, too, but i think there is a qualitative difference in the >"badness" of 80s production and of other earlier recording periods. i >would argue that there was a broad shift in the industry in the 80s away >from "naturalistic" recording and toward more deliberately artificial >sounds. some of the folks doing that were brilliant: lillywhite, hannett, >eno, etc. ... but a lot of them were hacks jumping bandwagons. Trevor Horn, anyone? > i also >think there's a way in which some of the characteristically "80s" sounds >are pushed more to the fore of the arrangements -- although your comments >about too many jangly Rickenbackers are well taken. Jangly Rickenbackers only bother me when the production is self-consciously "retro"--see, e.g., Myracle Brah's PLATE SPINNER... >incidentally, i hope in ten years plenty of people are griping about >characteristially nineties/naughties production, with its hyper-squashing, >artifically lock-stepped rhythms and vocals tweaked into unnatural >pitch-perfection. I'm bitching about it already. Singers these days don't seem to be able to adjust their pitch to color the emotional content of a word or line, and it's a shame. Of course, since most of them were chosen by megacorporations for their looks rather than any actual musical ability, pitch correction is probably necessary in order to further the illusion that they can even carry the rudimentary tunes they've been given to sing. Harrumph. Mr. Wilson Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder? The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Job_, chapter 38, verse 37 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:02:21 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] kinks > That thing about "covers of 'Waterloo Sunset'" was a joke, right?? I suppose they can't be worse than the Bangles' version of "September Gurls." (Those are possibly my two favorite songs, and cover versions of songs that are already perfect do not appeal to me.) According to allmusic, "Waterloo Sunset"'s been covered by Damon Albarn, Angeles (maybe), Blur (possibly the same as Albarn above), Cathy Dennis, David Essex (?!), the (late, great) Fastbacks, Barb Jungr, Greg Kihn, Caterina Valente, and Mike Vickers. While I don't have the same relationship to the song and indeed, probably couldn't hum it--my two favorite songs are "I Can't Help Myself" and oh, probably "Give It To Me," neither of which I've ever heard covered--I'll make the bold, possibly dangerous assumption that they can't be *all* bad. So long as Miles' got me lost in the '80s, I did surely enjoy "Love Like A Rocket," Bob Geldof's sequel to/affectionate parody of "Waterloo Sunset," though the first video from that album, "This Is The World Calling," stays with me more. Kinks albums: certainly not a master, but I came to love MUSWELL HILLBILLIES after some years, and VILLAGE GREEN PRESERVATION SOCIETY (the first one) is the one I see on all the "Predictable" All-Time Greatest Albums Ever Lists. Kinks memories: "Predictible" was the first video I ever caught on MTV, the day my brother and I figured out we had MTV (thank you, "The Rocket"--the music rag, not the song). (First video I ever saw at all was "Love Stinks"--anybody else remember "America Goes Bananas" from old Nickelodeon?)While never a huge follower of the Kinks (love the songs I know, never knew albums well) I followed them through the MTV years, listening to "Come Dancing" through the television speaker while its screen was draped over, for a Christmas party, testing myself to see if I could withstand the urge to watch the video later (losing). Mick Avory was out by the time "Do It Again"'s video got shot, leaving Ray to mug behind the drum set in a clown suit and adorable prosethetic proboscis. I thought I kept up with them at least perfunctorily, in this way, but I find they released one album during this period, THINK VISUAL, which escaped me completely. Am I better off? In other news, snopes.com has nothing, yet, on the MTV Europe affair, but here's an interesting summary of that long-ago episode to do with our buddy Bob: http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/mondays.asp So can you visit some web page and figure out how spammy you email gets? "I believe you, Mr. Wilson.." (well actually I like Trevor Horn), Andy R E M E M B E R I N " P A S S E N G E R 5 7 " W H E N E L I Z A B E T H H U R L E Y S A Y S " H O W W O U L D Y O U L I K E Y O U R S T E A K , S I R ? " A N D H E S A Y S " B L O O D Y ! " A N D T H E N T H E Y S T A R T S H O O T I N G P E O P L E ? O K . F I V E O T H E R W A Y S H E C O U L D H A V E L I K E D H I S S T E A K , W I T H T H E C O N C O M I T A N T K I L L I N G M E T H O D O L O G I E S . BY JOSH LEVIN - - - - 1. "Rare!"  Victims beaten to death with Italian Renaissance painting. 2. "Medium!"  Psychic's revelations of future all too real. Anguish and despair force victims to jump off plane. 3. "Pink!"  Victims tortured by repeat playings of "There You Go." 4. "Raw!"  Victims berated by Eddie Murphy (in walk-on role) for being gay. To death. 5. "Cut into small pieces and fed to me!"  Yes. from McSweeney's (http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/lists/passenger57.html) (courtesy Jer Fairall) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:02:29 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] curious coincidences - old TV A minority taste - but I rather like the second season of _Twin Peaks_, even though I'll acknowledge it has several weak and/or ridiculous plot points going on. But the whole Windom Earle plot I like - and it also proved very influential on _The X-Files_. In fact, the actor who played Major Garland Briggs on TP - Don S. Davis - is practically imported whole into XF, where he plays Scully's father, another military man (Navy) who appears stern, strict, and obsessively detail-oriented, but who apparently knows more than he lets on. And here's the coincidence: Davis played Scully's father - Scully's first name, of course, is Dana. On TP, Davis played the father of Bobby Briggs - and the actor who played Bobby is named...Dana (Ashbrook). ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: crumple zones:::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:08:26 -0800 From: John Cooper Subject: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies From dmw re MUSWELL HILLBILLIES: > > i don't find > it quite as snide as, say, the stones' faux-appalachian material, but it > still has this slightly smarmy air of people adopting conventions from > other genres in a way that's a little condescending. I'll take exception to that. Seems to me that unless there's an element of put-down to it, the adoption of a foreign style can't be either condescending or smarmy. And I don't hear contempt in MUSWELL, only affection. The whole point of the "Hillbillies" theme is to draw a parallel between the downtrodden poor of England and those of Appalachia--good people denied their dignity by an indifferent state bureaucracy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Curley Subject: Re: [loud-fans] kinks It's hard to imagine not knowing the original versions of "Waterloo Sunset" and "Victoria," but since this is the case, I'd recommend starting out with "Something Else" (which has Waterloo Sunset), "Village Green Preservation Society", and "Arthur" (which has Victoria) before getting any of the other albums mentioned. I know they aren't eMusic, but they are amazing albums. The others (except for Muswell) aren't in the same league. If you are really intent on starting with the RCA stuff, I'd get Celluloid Heroes since it pretty well samples the entire period, and since it has one of my absolute favorite songs - "Sweet Lady Genevieve." If you like this one, you'll probably like the other albums. One warning, the Velvel CD is much different than earlier CD and vinyl releases of the album. Among other things, the earlier versions did not have this song. I'm not sure which version is on eMusic. Can't help you with the Arista stuff. Mike Aaron Mandel wrote:Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:42:00 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel To: Aaron Milenski CC: loud-fans@smoe.org Subject: Re: [loud-fans] kinks On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Aaron Milenski wrote: > That thing about "covers of 'Waterloo Sunset'" was a joke, right? No, but I didn't make clear that I haven't heard the original. Robyn Hitchcock plays it live on occasion and, uh, I forget who else I heard play it, but it sounded good. (And there's a song on the new Malkmus which I heard called "Kinks-style" that turns out to just lift part of "Waterloo"s tune.) Thanks for the pointers, everyone. a Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:14:30 -0600 From: Jeffrey Norman Subject: [loud-fans] attn; Steven Matrick Is Steven still here? If you are, drop me an e-mail, willya? Thanks! .Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:35:22 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] kinks At 03:02 PM 3/21/2003 -0800, G. Andrew Hamlin wrote: >thought I kept up with them at least perfunctorily, in this way, but I >find they released one album during this period, THINK VISUAL, which >escaped me completely. Am I better off? THINK VISUAL (which postdates the RCA/Arista stuff that aaron asked about earlier today) is also godawful, and I'd rate it only slightly above SOAP OPERA. SOAP OPERA's "Ducks on the Wall" trumps anything here, though. Next is yet another live album, THE ROAD. This doesn't tread any new ground, but it's nice enough -- especially good to see that Ray remembered how to play "Apeman" after all those years of arena rocking, and the rest of the CD wisely concentrates on GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT and WORD OF MOUTH tracks. "It (I Want It)" is unique to this release, but isn't anything you need unless you go Kompletist on us. U.K. JIVE I like a lot, and its best material recalls the better moments of GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT. "Loony Balloon" is my pick for standout track, even if it does reprise some themes covered better and more nihilistically on Ray's "Expectations" (the penultimate track on the RETURN TO WATERLOO EP and my favorite post-MUSWELL HILLBILLIES Ray song). PHOBIA... "Hatred" is sort of gimmicky unless you see Ray and Dave play it live, exchanging genuine glares at each other that make the Gallagher Brother look like pikers at brotherly enmity. I can barely remember anything else about the rest of the album, other than thinking it was (heh) unmemorable and at least 15 minutes too long. However, the Kinks discog tells me that "Did Ya" was included as a bonus track in the UK and Europe, and *that* is a marvellous song, one that I'd rank right up there with Ray's best from any period. In fact, the "Did Ya" CD-5 as a whole is really worth seeking out, as all five of its tracks are worth having. Does TO THE BONE count? Very good stripped-down return to roots, one CD in the UK, two in the US and a new decent title track on top of that for us Yanks. And that's pretty much it for the tail end of the Kinks discog to date. I need to head out, so if someone wants to tackle STORYTELLER or the Dave stuff, jump right in. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:43:28 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies At 03:08 PM 3/21/2003 -0800, John Cooper wrote: >From dmw re MUSWELL HILLBILLIES: >> >> i don't find >> it quite as snide as, say, the stones' faux-appalachian material, but it >> still has this slightly smarmy air of people adopting conventions from >> other genres in a way that's a little condescending. > >I'll take exception to that. Seems to me that unless there's an element of >put-down to it, the adoption of a foreign style can't be either >condescending or smarmy. And I don't hear contempt in MUSWELL, only >affection. The whole point of the "Hillbillies" theme is to draw a parallel >between the downtrodden poor of England and those of Appalachia--good people >denied their dignity by an indifferent state bureaucracy. I'll second everything Mr. Cooper says, and even attempt to expand on it -- U.S. folk and country music has a lot of its roots in traditional British music, and the music Ray and Dave heard growing up in their own declasse section of London had natural musical, thematic, and class connections to U.S. folk and country. Songs like "Holloway Jail" and "Skin and Bones" (minus the "stone" measurement of the woman's weight) could have come from either shore. The Kinks sound like they're having the time of their lives playing this stuff too. IMO, there is not a damn thing about MUSWELL HILLBILLIES that's condescending in the least. Gillian Welch standing in front of a national TV audience professing her love for "Ap-uh-LAY-shun" folk music, now that's condescending. short "a," everyone, short "a," Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:40:36 -0500 From: Overall_Julianne@emc.com Subject: [loud-fans] Return of The King news http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html Gotta go for the plastic action figures.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:47:18 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] kinks >I hereby dispute your claim to be the biggest Kinks fan on the list, based >on the last part of that sentence. I absolutely worship the same stuff you >do, but find considerable value in the RCA years, and much more in the >Arista years. I'd even go further than that, since I like U.K. JIVE a lot, >and think the "Did Ya?" single is one of the best things the group ever >did. At least you'd go further than John Mendelsohn! > >Of course, this may just make me a more indiscriminate Kinks fan than you, >rather than a "bigger" one. :-) > No, you're probably right, just as I'd suggest that John Sharples is a bigger Beatles fan than me because he likes their solo stuff more than I do. I'm just the biggest VGPS, ARTHUR, and "Waterloo Sunset" fan on the list. :-) Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:50:57 -0600 From: Bill Silvers Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies >IMO, there is not a damn thing about MUSWELL HILLBILLIES that's >condescending in the least. Gillian Welch standing in front of a national >TV audience professing her love for "Ap-uh-LAY-shun" folk music, now >that's condescending. > >short "a," everyone, short "a," > >Miles OK, OK Miles, but I hope it won't be "condescending" for me to note that I grew up saying it as LAY, too (though I'm a Mi-zoo-Ree native, and at least half the state wants to mispronounce it Mi-zoo-ruh, the snobs ). The red herring of Ms. Welch's otherwise impeccably sincere relation to traditional music (Dorothea Lange-ish get up and all) is best left aside in this case. And where the heck is East Tennesse State, anyway? Pigeon Forge? b.s. seconding the recommendation of SOMETHING ELSE as a starting point over any of the 70's stuff I was nonetheless glad to see discussed ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:58:11 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Return of The King news > Gotta go for the plastic action figures.... Heck, I'm still not sure whether to go for the Hitler action figure: http://www.inthepasttoys.com/ But he doesn't look like Noah Taylor at all... Andy "There were a few acres of crops scattered in sheltered ground which had been able to escape the ravages of radiation, the fury of the fires, the holocaust of the hurricanes, but they had been pretty well obliterated by the flood water..." - --from ORBIT ONE by John E. Muller (aka R. Lionel Fanthorpe) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:29:03 -0600 (CST) From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies Bill Silvers: >OK, OK Miles, but I hope it won't be "condescending" for me to >note that I grew up saying it as LAY, too Well, you're not getting in front of audiences and pronouncing the actual lyrics "authentically," then gabbing about "Ap-uh-LAY-shn" sounds. It's all a little too carpetbagger/VISTA-like for me. >(though I'm a Mi-zoo- >Ree native, and at least half the state wants to mispronounce >it Mi-zoo-ruh, the snobs ). I didn't know if the "-ruh" was something people from Missouri actually said, or people from other parts of the country pronouncing it that way. Sounds like it's a split verdict even there. FWIW, I'd always say "-ree." > The red herring of Ms. Welch's otherwise impeccably sincere > relation to traditional music (Dorothea Lange-ish get up and > all) is best left aside in this case. I do feel like she's a bit of a schoolmarm -- maybe it's a Miss Hathaway kind of earnestness. I much prefer the Rawlings-fronted Esquires, and wish they'd cut an album! >And where the heck is East Tennesse State, anyway? Pigeon Forge? Oh, quite a bit further east -- Johnson City, TN, one of the Tri-Cities (along with Kingsport country/bluegrass birthplace Bristol), and home to fine alt-country venue the Down Home, where both the V-Roys and A/The Scott Miller have cut live discs. It's a beautiful town, and reminds me of what Bluefield, WV, looked like when Melissa and I were kids, before it started going to hell in the late '70s. >b.s. seconding the recommendation of SOMETHING ELSE as a >starting point over any of the 70's stuff I was nonetheless >glad to see discussed Hm, as an abolute beginning point, I'd say KINKS KRONIKLES, or, for an actual non-comp album that shows off everything the Kinks do well, ARTHUR. Not that I don't love SOMETHING ELSE, but I wouldn't give it to a neophyte first. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:31:11 -0600 (CST) From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fw: Re: *****SPAM***** Re:[loud-fans] pop advice? Aaron meant this for the list... ============= >One of these days I'm going to write my very long, and very long-planned, >piece about why I'm bugged that music from every other decade is allowed to >sound like itself, but music from the '80s *isn't*. It's always the first >thing to get tarred with "dated," "tacky," etc. I never see anyone >bitching about how there are 798 singles from 1966 with jangly >Rickenbackers, or how records recorded in 1972 sound like, well, records >recorded in 1972 (and how Lenny Kravitz wants his music to have exactly the >same limitations and tape hiss as those recordings). But put a synth patch >or gated drum on a record and you get an almost Pavlovian reaction. > I'm giving myself a pass on this one, simply because even in the 80s I hated the way those production styles sounded. It isn't revisionism at all. To my ears, jangly Rickenbackers sound great and gated drums sound like shit. Only my opinion, of course, but I do think it's fair criticism if someone really feels that way about it. I'm sure other people hate all of the late 60s psychedelic sounds I like. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:44:46 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: *****SPAM***** Re:[loud-fans] pop advice? dana-boy@juno.com wrote: >I just downloaded Tahiti 80's "Wallpaper For the Soul" from eMusic and >am enjoying most of it. Can anyone suggest similar fare on eMusic? > > > >Well, first you might want to download their other album "Puzzle" if you haven't already. IMHO, it's better than "Wallpaper." The "Mr. Davies" track is especially good. Emusic recommends the Aluminum Group for fans of Tahiti 80, and that seems about right to me, even though the two bands don't sound alike. > > I'll check into the Aluminum Group. I already have the download of "Puzzle", and while it's alright, I didn't care for it quite as much. I did, however, much to my utter delight, find the Wondermints "Mind If We Make Love to You" on there, which I consider to be in the same vein, and I also like the Joy Zipper album, which I would toss in the same pile, too. So, that kinda stuff, basically. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:46:12 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] spam? dana-boy@juno.com wrote: >So, granted I was offering a CD, but does anyone know where that ****SPAM*** came from in the subject line of my last message. I didn't put it there. Wonder if this one will have the same? > >--dana > > Nope, and nope. That was all just plain weird. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:51:17 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: *****SPAM***** Re:[loud-fans] pop advice? Dana Paoli wrote: >I forgot about Ivy. I second Aaron's suggestion. I really like that album. > >--dana > > Yep, thanks. Had it already. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:09:09 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Miles Goosens wrote: > At 03:08 PM 3/21/2003 -0800, John Cooper wrote: > >From dmw re MUSWELL HILLBILLIES: > >> > >> i don't find > >> it quite as snide as, say, the stones' faux-appalachian material, but it > >> still has this slightly smarmy air of people adopting conventions from > >> other genres in a way that's a little condescending. > > > >I'll take exception to that. Seems to me that unless there's an element of > >put-down to it, the adoption of a foreign style can't be either > >condescending or smarmy. And I don't hear contempt in MUSWELL, only > >affection. The whole point of the "Hillbillies" theme is to draw a parallel > >between the downtrodden poor of England and those of Appalachia--good people > >denied their dignity by an indifferent state bureaucracy. i kinda thought i'd draw fire for that. but hey, i got away with the stones crack! > I'll second everything Mr. Cooper says, and even attempt to expand on it > -- U.S. folk and country music has a lot of its roots in traditional > British music, and the music Ray and Dave heard growing up in their own > declasse section of London had natural musical, thematic, and class > connections to U.S. folk and country. Songs like "Holloway Jail" and > "Skin and Bones" (minus the "stone" measurement of the woman's weight) > could have come from either shore. The Kinks sound like they're having > the time of their lives playing this stuff too. yeah, i get it. i dunno, condecision is in the ear of the beholder -- i'm suddenly reminded, a little uncomfortable, over all the furor about the lonely spartanburg flower stall. i *do* think muswell is a good record (wouldn't surprise me if it were one jeff tweedy holds in high esteem) but i also think that ray davies thinks he's smarter than the people he's singing about. hell, he probably is. okay, i'm just going to go crawl under a rock now. > condescending in the least. Gillian Welch standing in front of a > national TV audience professing her love for "Ap-uh-LAY-shun" folk > music, now that's condescending. ooh, but when yer guitar player is as good as d. rawlings you can get away with a lot, cantcha? - -- d. np kinks _muswell hillbillies_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:25:54 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Mr. Nelson and MR. **** SPAM **** At Friday 3/21/2003 01:55 PM -0500, dmw wrote: >are "quit dreaming and get off the beam" and "love that whirls" both poor >introductions, too? I dunno... QUIT DREAMING is one of my all-time fave albums by anyone. But it was his first solo album after Be Bebop Deluxe and Red Noise, and to me, he's never surpassed it. LOVE THAT WHIRLS is pretty nifty and still better than most of his solo stuff, IMHO. Soooo, I would say they are good introductions. But I'm not much a fan of his later solo work (though I still buy most of it). There's a lot of good songs in the later works, they're just harder to find. I know Steve doesn't agree... Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:52:40 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: [loud-fans] 10,9,8... (ns) Current events had me thinking about one of my very favorite 80's records, Midnight Oil's _10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1_. It also brings to mind the 80's production mini-thread, as the sound on this record is _really_ weird -- it's got a strange, maximally processed drum sound (all the more prominent because Rob Hirst is such a f'ing amazing drummer) and all sorts of odd, delicate synth flourishes, all with Peter Garrett alternately ranting and lamenting. The songs are incredible -- what the anthems lack in subtlety they make up for in singalong catchiness ("US Forces"), reckless abandon ("Only The Strong", "Power and the Passion", "Read About It"), and texture ("Outside World", "Tin Legs and Tin Mines") The following album, _Red Sails In The Sunset_, was almost, but not quite as good, but the succeeding ones went way over the line into preachy for me. -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:03:51 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Miles Goosens wrote: > IMO, there is not a damn thing about MUSWELL HILLBILLIES that's > condescending in the least. Gillian Welch standing in front of a > national TV audience professing her love for "Ap-uh-LAY-shun" folk > music, now that's condescending. Okay, I didn't see this incident, but... if she'd said she loved Paris, and pronounced the S instead of saying it how the people who live there would, would that be that condescending? I'm imagining someone from around here saying, "Oh, you grew up in Wisconsin? I have a friend from M'waukee," carefully pronouncing the name of the city the way we do back home. I would probably feel more condescended to than if they enunciated all three syllables. Lexical items are different -- I expect people to learn that it's "Mass Ave" as opposed to "Massachusetts Avenue", no matter where they came from. But questions of pronunciation seem to fall so much to regional variation that, I don't know, I don't get bent out of shape about them. (I'm also not sure who's condescending to whom when native East Coasters tell me I pronounce my own name wrong.) aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:05:59 -0500 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 10,9,8... (ns) I still stubbornly believe that _Diesel and Dust_ is a major record, but I wouldn't try to contend that it's not preachy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 23:26:21 -0600 (CST) From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies aaron: >Okay, I didn't see this incident, but... if she'd said she >loved Paris, and pronounced the S instead of saying it how the >people who live there would, would that be that condescending? Only if she was saying the rest of the sentence in French. :-) >I'm imagining someone from around here saying, "Oh, you grew up >in Wisconsin? I have a friend from M'waukee," carefully >pronouncing the name of the city the way we do back home. I >would probably feel more condescended to than if they >enunciated all three syllables. I think this discussion is likely to end up in the same place as our disagreement about "Papa Was a Rodeo," boiling down to a "you had to hear it" matter regarding how the singer in question meant what he or she was saiying. More generally, I take your point, but there is not a person I've met who grew up in the Appalachians who says it "Ap-uh-LAY-shuns," and it's a simple adjustment that doesn't require faking a overenunciated twang or adding/dropping a consonant or anything close to a Gomer Pyle imitation to pull off. I expect all long "a" folks who read this to now adjust their pronunciations accordingly. (Actually, this should count as another point in favor of MUSWELL HILLBILLIES' sincerity -- that a hypersensitive hillbilly like me doesn't feel parodied in the least by it. I also immediately identified A./The (Other) Scott Miller as an Appalachian homeboy the first time I heard the V-Roys do "Virginia Way" -- when he sang "Appalachia's loving arms / to welcome me again," I was all "hot damn, he said it the right way!") To take a different example, I know the Egyptian city "Cairo" is pronounced as though the "ai" is a long "i" (I'd do the true diacriticals, but smoe.org's demime would just mess 'em up). But the locals in the Illinois city with the same name say that their town is "Kay-roh," and I'd feel pretty damn stuck up to keep saying it the other way just because. Similarl, LAH-fay-ut Avenue here in Nashville, and about 90 miles to the west, Mi-lun, Tennessee. >(I'm also not sure who's condescending to whom when native East > Coasters tell me I pronounce my own name wrong.) It's clearly them. It's your damn name; if you pronounce it "Raymond Luxury Yacht," that's how it's pronounced. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:00:58 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies At 10:03 PM 3/21/2003 -0500, Aaron Mandel wrote: >Okay, I didn't see this incident, but... if she'd said she loved Paris, >and pronounced the S instead of saying it how the people who live there >would, would that be that condescending? > >I'm imagining someone from around here saying, "Oh, you grew up in >Wisconsin? I have a friend from M'waukee," carefully pronouncing the name >of the city the way we do back home. I would probably feel more >condescended to than if they enunciated all three syllables. I'm with Aaron on this one, from all of my years in New Mexico of hearing people suddenly adopt the worst cod-Mexican accents you ever heard when a Spanish name (place or person) shows up in the sentence. Drives me up the wall, and I've always found that terribly affected and, yeah, a little condescending. Although it does provide moments of amusement like the time local newscaster Dick Knipfing -- which isn't as good as racecar driver Dick Trickle, but it's damn close -- got the Spanish surname pronunciation stuck so thoroughly in his head that he was started talking about a candlelight "VEE-hill" taking place one evening. >Lexical items are different -- I expect people to learn that it's "Mass >Ave" as opposed to "Massachusetts Avenue", no matter where they came from. I fell into "Mass Ave" and "Comm Ave" very quickly (this week marks my one-year anniversary as an Allstonian, incidentally), but it took me a while to realize that "Ave" is a universal here, and that like everyone else, without thinking, I also spoke of "Western Ave," "Brighton Ave" and "Harvard Ave." S NP: WHEN I'M FALLING -- Terminal 4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:24:40 -0800 From: *THAT* Matt Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Hillbillies At 10:03 PM -0500 3/21/03, Aaron Mandel wrote: > >Lexical items are different -- I expect people to learn that it's "Mass >Ave" as opposed to "Massachusetts Avenue", no matter where they came from. >But questions of pronunciation seem to fall so much to regional variation >that, I don't know, I don't get bent out of shape about them. (I'm also >not sure who's condescending to whom when native East Coasters tell me I >pronounce my own name wrong.) Is this the "AIR-on" vs "A-ron" (IPA symbol : f) argument? Matt Se non h vero, h molto ben trovato. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #84 ******************************