From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #49 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Monday, February 17 2003 Volume 03 : Number 049 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers [glenn mcdonald ] [loud-fans] Plug for Dave Decastro [Carolyn Dorsey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 09:18:20 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers I'm so old that I can remember when people were considered narrow-minded idiots if they blathered on about books that they couldn't be bothered to read (or even read about). In any case, everyone might feel a lot better about John Strausbaugh if they'd consider one of his major points is that aging rock critics would rather strike an empty pose than pay any attention to a fellow grown-up like Scott Miller. (Fortunately, Miller himself has a fan in token adult favorite Aimee Mann.) The book's more about culture than colostomy bags, and many here would probably agree that it addresses several points commonly bitched about on this very list. And, of course, if Strausbaugh was a young fanzine writer, he'd be dismissed as a person who'd only change his mind when he got older. On the other hand, he'd get to use aging rock critics who are reduced to writing for free. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:03:41 -0500 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers I suspect there's a McLuhan-esque point in here about hot and cool media, something about how "exciting" is stuff you don't have to engage in and can just be buffeted by, while "boring" means things that stand back and make you cross the distance yourself. Except obviously even these distinctions are subjective and can be flipped for any given individual. (And I could never quite follow McLuhan's examples, either.) Anyway, my original point was only supposed to be that when somebody claims that hip-hop is "fun" and grown-up music is soporific and afraid of something, it's a circular argument and you're never going to talk them out of it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:38:29 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, glenn mcdonald wrote: > I suspect there's a McLuhan-esque point in here about hot and cool > media, something about how "exciting" is stuff you don't have to engage > in and can just be buffeted by, while "boring" means things that stand > back and make you cross the distance yourself. Except that now the article is online and it just seems to me that Andrea misrepresented it. Costello is mentioned as an example of how "stylistically broad" AAA radio is; Aimee Mann, David Gray and Sheryl Crow are cited as boring. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/arts/16ROSE.html?th So, Rosen singles out hip-hop for two things: sonic adventurousness, and being hated by people whose musical tastes are otherwise very broad. This strikes me as very true. (With that focus, it's less surprising that Rosen likes Missy Elliott so much; she can't rhyme her way out of a paper bag, but the *music* sounds pretty good.) Also note that, whether you agree or disgree, Rosen isn't saying that the kind of music made by Mann et al. is *inherently* boring, only that when created for nostalgic or complacent reasons the results are boring. Rosen equivocates a little on just what "adult music" is, which I think is a problem; retro or not, does she really think the White Stripes are about form over feeling? Or that the Buena Vista Social Club is? There are more musical forms in the past than in the presently-accessible near-future, and if an artist hits on the one that serves as the best backdrop to honest emotional expression, all the better. It seems to me that Rosen makes a point about the broadness of AAA radio, but then backs off and assumes that if hip-hop is repellent to AAA listeners, then the true heart of the AAA format must be whatever is most unlike hip-hop. That's a fallacy. On the other hand, many of the most musically voracious people I know tend to keep hip-hop at arm's length -- some despise it, while others nod their head at the occasional track but don't dive in the way they would with any other genre that started to pique their interest. Of course, people like what they like! Just because I think a lot of my friends are missing out doesn't mean they have a duty to listen to hip-hop, or to care what I think. It's still a curious pattern. a ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:20:47 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers Quoting Aaron Mandel : > Costello is mentioned as an example of how > "stylistically broad" AAA radio is; Aimee Mann, David Gray and Sheryl > Crow > are cited as boring. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/arts/16ROSE.html?th Mann's music is also described as displaying "little deep emotion"; apparently, Rosen was listening under the influence of Prozac. Or perhaps she confuses the resigned delivery with the content of the lyrics - or imagines that resignation isn't an emotion. > So, Rosen singles out hip-hop for two things: sonic adventurousness, and > being hated by people whose musical tastes are otherwise very broad. > This > strikes me as very true. It probably is, yes. Personally, the reason I haven't checked out much hip-hop is that the twenty-odd hip-hop albums I have don't get listened to that much, and it seems that even among the largely positive reviews of hip-hop recordings that I read (primarily those of Nathan Rabin in _The Onion_), too many boil down to there being an excellent 40-minute album to be drawn from the bloated, double 75-minute set in question. (So those of us who do know hip-hop might do a public service to those who are interested but put off by this phenomenon: what are some good, solid, tightly constructed hip-hop albums that aren't excessively indebted to thuggishness as a sales technique?) > Also note that, whether you agree or disgree, Rosen isn't saying that > the > kind of music made by Mann et al. is *inherently* boring, only that when > created for nostalgic or complacent reasons the results are boring. I think she also stumbles against this thing called "taste": long a dirty word for rockist critics, it's rather undefined and seems to mean something like "avoids startlingly loud or distorted noises." You'd think Mann would earn points for having the word "fuck" on all her albums... It's also interesting that she singles out hip-hop, and then goes on to state that what "adult" listeners don't like is electronics and sampling. Of course, other genres besides hip-hop use those (including, at various times, Mann, Costello, Crow, and Enya), and other genres avoided by "adult" listeners almost never use them (metal). One thing that's happened in this discussion - between the original post and now - is that two distinct arguments have been run together. There's whatever it was John Strasbourg said in the NPR interview (since this is a music *discussion* list, I don't exactly feel compelled not to opinionate on people's opinions even though I haven't heard it - especially since I've always clearly stated that fact) and this NYT article, which wasn't online until today. Anyone who's familiar w/both Rosen's and Strasbourg's points: how are they similar, how are they different? Jeff Ceci n'est pas une .sig ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:27:53 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers What is AAA radio? Call me out of touch, but it's not a term I'm familiar with. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:01:58 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers first glenn, then Jeffrey: > And why anybody would >> waste a lot of time trying to convince Pepsi-addled GTA geeks that >> quiet, subtle records are worth slowing down for (or, for that matter, >> trying to convince mellow Wilco fans dozing on screen porches that >> they *need* to wake up and get with Ja Rule), I don't really know. > > Is Strasbourg trying to do the latter? Or just suggest that Wilco hang > it up, or stop trying to pretend (in what way?) that they're playing > "rock"? Doubt it. First, Strausbaugh [sic] muses on the air how he thinks hip-hop's shed its status as a significant and signifying music of youth (the position formerly occupied by rock) speculating further that youth may not have such a music anymore and maybe it's just a "computer culture," or a "skateboard culture." (Rosen concurs to some extent, writing "Before too long, hip-hop will lose its vitality and its grip on young listeners; the first generation to come of age with rap as mainstream pop music will grow up and hit singles will recede, along with hairlines, into an idealized past." Strausbaugh seems to find this all past tense, however.) Second, Wilco falls outside what Strausbaugh calls the music he "calls" people on--rock, rock'n'roll. He admits to using a narrow definition, and his hostility falls, as I see it, upon acts embodying one or more of the following concepts/approaches: "three chords," "baby baby baby," and "SHAKE_BOOTY." (Daring to SHAKE_BOOTY past thirty being amongst, though by no means the only one of, Mick Jagger's crimes.) For those who haven't at least listened to the radio show (WFMU, by the way, not NPR) may I highly suggest you do at least that. You're missing out on Head And Leg's "The Hits Keep Comin'," as hilarious and maddening, if not quite so thought-provoking, as Negativland in their prime (no surprise to find them on the Seeland label) and some slippery John Oswald plunderphonics. Also it's much harder to burn a mix CD, or vacuum a cat, while you're reading a transcript. I'm interested in his other book assessing the fermentation of Elvis-as-religion, Andy "I hate research, I think we should go back to prayer. Research is damaging." - --some guy I got on the phone at work last Thursday ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:57:06 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers Adult Album Alternative Phil F. NP... Ramones _Too Tough To Die_ - --- Jenny Grover wrote: > What is AAA radio? Call me out of touch, but it's > not a term I'm > familiar with. > > Jen Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:17:50 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers > Adult > Album > Alternative I had no idea either, which probably goes to show. Still, a few links for anyone interested: http://www.pastemagazine.com/ http://www.ags.uci.edu/~dehill/radio/aaa/ http://www.main-st.net/links/aaalist.html Not sure that they'd play the Ramones, though, Andy Results as of 2/15/03: The #s in parenthesis are where it was ranked last week/where it was ranked in the Paste list. (HM=Honorable Mention, NR=Not Ranked) TOP VOTE GETTERS: #1 (1/2) Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot #2 (5/4) Patty Griffin - 1000 Kisses #3 (2/5) Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to the Head #4 (3/15) Bruce Springsteen - The Rising #5 (10/6) Beck - Sea Change #6 (9/HM) Steve Earle - Jerusalem #7 (7/13) Norah Jones - Come Away With Me #8 (6/NR) Sixpence None the Richer - Divine Discontent #9 (4/HM) Bill Mallonee - Fetal Position #10 (11/20) Aimee Mann - Lost In Space #11 (8/HM) Buddy Miller - Midnight & Lonesome #12 (12/NR) Counting Crows - Hard Candy #13 (13/17) Ryan Adams - Demolition #14 (16/HM) Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots #15 (14/HM) Tift Merritt - Bramble Rose #16 (15/HM) Rhett Miller - The Instigator #17 (17/3) Pedro the Lion - Control #18 (20/16) David Gray - A New Day at Midnight #19 Beth Orton (HM/NR) - Daybreaker #20 Hem (HM/19) - Rabbit Songs YOUR HONORABLE MENTIONS: (18/14) Josh Rouse - Under Cold Blue Stars (NR/1) Rosie Thomas - When We Were Small (NR/HM) Sigur Ros - ( ) (NR/12) 16 Horsepower - Folklore (HM/HM) Doves - The Last Broadcast And finally, there were 448 write-in votes. Here were the Top Vote Getters from the write-ins: TOP WRITE INS: Elvis Costello - When I Was Cruel Bill Mallonee - Locket Full Of Moonlight Kim Richey - Rise Dixie Chicks - Home Peter Gabriel - Up Nickel Creek - This Side Paul Westerberg - Mono/Stereo Roger Clyne & The Peacemakers - Sonoran Hope and Madness Guy Clark - The Dark Going Driftless - An Artist's Tribute to Greg Brown Frank Lenz - The Hot Stuff John Mayer - Room for Squares Spoon - Kill the Moonlight Woven Hand [--today's standings for the Paste magazine Top 20 Readers Poll Results, at http://www.pastemagazine.com/action/article?article_id=98 . The poll will remain open until March 31, 2093] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:23:01 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: [loud-fans] ...I did it again... Make that March 31, 2003. "And I think it's gonna be a long long time..." Andy "As of two weeks post WTC bombing, this is the ONLY music I can bear to listen to. Please trust me. This is a riveting album." - --Georgia D. Gavric on the Mumps' album FATAL CHARM; from www.amazon.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:36:08 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] ...I did it again... In a message dated 2/16/03 4:24:13 PM, zoom@muppetlabs.com writes: << Make that March 31, 2003. >> That's okay. Since this is a music *discussion* list, you shouldn't feel compelled to know what year it is. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:56:45 -0500 From: "jer fairall" Subject: [loud-fans] chat! Phil and I are hanging out in the chat room if anyone wishes to join us. irc.eskimo.com #loudfans Jer np: The Arrogants, YOUR SIMPLE BEAUTY Find out who's green and who's not! Use Care2's Green Thumbs-up! http://www.care2.com/go/z/4029 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:56:41 -0500 From: Carolyn Dorsey Subject: [loud-fans] Plug for Dave Decastro I am a new fan of this guy. He's written some beautiful songs, all very diverse. Kind of in the feeling of The Feelies, Steve Wynn, Elliot Smith, some songs kind of psychy others more countryish pop. He sent me his last 4 solo cds and they're great, especially his new one, called Sparkle. He played bass on Steve Wynn's last record, Here Come the Miracles plus he's 1/4 of the Health and Happiness show. He'll be playing live this week on yes again WFMU on Irene Trudel's show tomorrow, Monday the 17th sometime from 3 to 6. I think his record might qualify as AAA but he's really good. Does anyone think Steve Wynn or the Feelies count as AAA? :) http://www.wfmu.org/schedule#IT The Loud Family played on her show a few years ago. I like her. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 01:29:24 -0500 From: Dana Paoli Subject: [loud-fans] snow (ns) So, there is the most wonderful, amazing snowstorm here in NYC right now, which I just came in out of. Anyone who has the day off tomorrow (and is still awake) should really go check it out. I just wanted to put in a totally off-subject plug for Bardo Pond, who are the first band I've discovered via eMusic where I'll actually be buying the CDs. On first listen I kind of wrote them off as yet another drone rock band, but the fantastic one-chord song "Inside" from the album "Dilate" proved to be the thing that pulled me in, and I've now got pretty much everything they've done on the iPod and it's awfully great. In fact, I've had such a truly stellar listening experience today: earlier this week Shari found a lost cat and we brought her in due to the cold. It turns out that I'm terrifyingly allergic to this cat, so I've been taking antihistamines again, and one of the nicer things about being me is that most antihistamines hit me like Vicodin. So, after the gym today, I spent about four hours walking around in the snow, blissed out on allergy meds, with this fantastic heavy hypnotic soundtrack in the headphones, stopping for pizza and mochachinos as needed. Very nice. Fans of the whole Spacemen 3/Flying Saucer Attack/etc. kind of thing (but heavier) are strongly advised to check Bardo Pond out, and "Dilate" still strikes me as the place to start. And it might be helpful to take some cold medicine or something. I'm not putting a long description of the band in here, 'cause that's what Allmusic is for. I think I had initially passed on them due to a dislike for some of Matador's other drone/space rock groups, but that was a mistake. Had live sea urchin *and* monk fish liver for the first time at me and Shari's Valentines Day dinner the other day, and all I can say is "Yum!!!" Anyone want a very sweet, allergy provoking cat?? - --dana ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #49 ******************************