From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #48 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Sunday, February 16 2003 Volume 03 : Number 048 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaug [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers [Michael Bowen But that has nothing to do with rap as a genre. I'm sure you're aware that > rock, country, blues, jazz, and any other genre you could name produces > many > examples of "the worst kind of homophobia/sexism" (is there a good kind?). > I'm also a bit dubious about that convenient overlooking: it seems like > every other article I read about hip-hop (even the positive ones) has a > ritual finger-shaking directed at exactly those issues. > Very true, and I don't listen to anything like that, no matter what the genre. And it's certainly not every rock critic, Ann Powers when she was writing for the Times is a good example, so is Lester Bangs The White Noise Supremacists. > I wouldn't call myself a rap fan, in that I know very little of the genre, > but I too think it's suspicious when rap's bad behavers call forth these > sorts of mini-sermons, when similar notions in other music seldom do. I > mean, Johnny Cash sang about a guy who "shot a man in Reno just to watch > him > die" - and he'd been in prison even! - and yet somehow the nation didn't > have a moral panic attack about the imminent threat of rural white southern > men... > Yes and maybe I exagerated when I wrote that. As i say there is a good amount of rap, think Missy Elliot, Lauyn Hill, Michael Franti, that are not, and them I'll listen to. There have been articles about this with every genre of music, I remember an article I read many years ago by a woman who wrote about Miles Davis's cruel sexism, and how he was celebrated anyway. That's one, a better one though might be Axl Rose. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:26:08 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers glenn mcdonald wrote: > I didn't use the words "by definition", so I can't comment on what I > might have meant by them if I had. But I'll take this opportunity to > say the opposite, which should be uncontroversial to nearly the point > of obviousness: age does not determine energy level. And I agree that > it is perfectly possible for an individual to be excited, transfixed, > inspired and subject to a host of other uplifting emotions by music > that is neither fast nor tricked out. But if we take "exciting" and > "boring" in their superficial sense, as lots of people tend to, then > Missy Elliot and _xXx_ and Grand Theft Auto are exciting, and Aimee > Mann and _The Hours_ and Scrabble are boring. And why anybody would > waste a lot of time trying to convince Pepsi-addled GTA geeks that > quiet, subtle records are worth slowing down for (or, for that matter, > trying to convince mellow Wilco fans dozing on screen porches that > they *need* to wake up and get with Ja Rule), I don't really know. glenn mcdonald wrote: > I didn't use the words "by definition", so I can't comment on what I > might have meant by them if I had. But I'll take this opportunity to > say the opposite, which should be uncontroversial to nearly the point > of obviousness: age does not determine energy level. And I agree that > it is perfectly possible for an individual to be excited, transfixed, > inspired and subject to a host of other uplifting emotions by music > that is neither fast nor tricked out. But if we take "exciting" and > "boring" in their superficial sense, as lots of people tend to, then > Missy Elliot and _xXx_ and Grand Theft Auto are exciting, and Aimee > Mann and _The Hours_ and Scrabble are boring. And why anybody would > waste a lot of time trying to convince Pepsi-addled GTA geeks that > quiet, subtle records are worth slowing down for (or, for that matter, > trying to convince mellow Wilco fans dozing on screen porches that > they *need* to wake up and get with Ja Rule), I don't really know. And furthermore, I'll take rock music made by someone old enough to convince me they've been around long enough and lived enough to know how to rock me over someone young enough to be my kids wailing about something they don't even begin to understand. Why should I be looking behind me in age for something exciting when so many of the people who have excited me with *yes* loud, fast, passionate music have been from my own generation. If I still feel that passion and energy and desire for newness, then why shouldn't those musicians my age who are still active? If you ditched anyone over 30 from rockdom, you would eliminate some of the hardest rocking intelligent music out there. Even bands who are good below age 30 still sometimes don't fully hit their stride till after 30. Some rock bands are tired and boring and used up sounding before they hit 22. Age isn't the issue. Jen (who, admittedly, just doesn't have time to listen to or read the interview, but senses she would find at least as much there to disagree with as agree with, based on what others are saying) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:52:25 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: [loud-fans] unofficial ben shepherd site has moved! The Unofficial Ben Shepherd Home Page has moved. Please update your bookmarks and any links you may have on your own pages. The site now resides at www.circleswithin.com Jen Grover ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:44:38 -0600 From: Holly Kruse Subject: [loud-fans] Pie (ns) It seems weird to preface a post to loud-fans by with "this is off-topic", but because my question has nothing to do with music, film, literature, or current events, it seems particularly off- topic... ...although it may not be, if, for instance, Scott enjoys having a good piece of pie in the Bay Area occasionally, because that is the subject of my question. I have a friend who's been living in Oakland and teaching at UC-Berkeley during this academic year, and I'll likely be visiting him again in a little over a month: we are both fans of good pie and would like to know where we might find such pie in and around San Francisco. We went on a few pie quests here in Tulsa before he went to California but were unsuccessful (pies were too sweet, had unsatisfactory crusts, etc.) I need to continue doing local research, but I thought I could tap into the loud-fans store of knowledge for SF area pie recommendations. Thanks in advance! Holly hkruse@infi.net holly-kruse@utulsa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:49:51 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers Quoting glenn mcdonald : > But if we take "exciting" and > "boring" in their superficial sense, as lots of people tend to, then > Missy Elliot and _xXx_ and Grand Theft Auto are exciting, and Aimee > Mann and _The Hours_ and Scrabble are boring. This follows from your actual words, which were "Well, isn't that true in a nearly objective sense?" in response to someone else's saying that "Norah Jones, Aimee Mann, Elvis C and so on, are 'boring' compared to all that rap out there." I'll note that "boring" was put in quotes, so the whole thing is best read as using that "superficial" definition of "exciting," as you note. And why anybody would > waste a lot of time trying to convince Pepsi-addled GTA geeks that > quiet, subtle records are worth slowing down for (or, for that matter, > trying to convince mellow Wilco fans dozing on screen porches that they > *need* to wake up and get with Ja Rule), I don't really know. Is Strasbourg trying to do the latter? Or just suggest that Wilco hang it up, or stop trying to pretend (in what way?) that they're playing "rock"? I ask because, uh, again, I haven't heard what he said. I'm relying on people here who have to clarify his points. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: Californians invented the concept of the life-style. :: This alone warrants their doom. :: --Don DeLillo, _White Noise_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:10:54 -0800 From: *THAT* Matt Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pie (ns) At 12:44 AM -0600 2/16/03, Holly Kruse wrote: >It seems weird to preface a post to loud-fans by >with "this is off-topic", but because my question >has nothing to do with music, film, literature, >or current events, it seems particularly off- >topic... > >...although it may not be, if, for instance, >Scott enjoys having a good piece of pie in >the Bay Area occasionally, because that is >the subject of my question. I have a friend >who's been living in Oakland and teaching >at UC-Berkeley during this academic year, >and I'll likely be visiting him again in a >little over a month: we are both fans of >good pie and would like to know where we >might find such pie in and around San >Francisco. We went on a few pie quests >here in Tulsa before he went to California >but were unsuccessful (pies were too sweet, >had unsatisfactory crusts, etc.) I need >to continue doing local research, but I >thought I could tap into the loud-fans store >of knowledge for SF area pie recommendations. > >Thanks in advance! > > >Holly >hkruse@infi.net Lois the Pie Queen in Oakland (great lemon icebox pie), Mrs. Walker's Pie Shop in Albany/Berkeley on Solano Ave., and Fatapple's Restaurant in Berkeley (MLK & Rose, I think--it's the only place I know of where one can have olallaberry pie). Not that I'm a real pie connoisseur, but as far as I know all three of those places make their own, and they're all pretty good. Matt Cet animal est trhs michant, Quand on l'attaque il se difend. [This animal is very bad; when attacked it defends itself] La Minagerie, by Thiodore P. K., 1828 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 02:23:23 -0500 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers At 12:49 AM 2/16/2003 -0600, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Quoting glenn mcdonald : > >> trying to convince mellow Wilco fans dozing on screen porches that they >> *need* to wake up and get with Ja Rule), I don't really know. > >Is Strasbourg trying to do the latter? Or just suggest that Wilco hang it >up, or stop trying to pretend (in what way?) that they're playing "rock"? I don't know what Strasbourg is saying - he's too silly to waste any time listening to/reading - but the gist of Xgau's Pazz & Jop essay was exactly what glenn quoted, except we're supposed to get with Missy Elliot, not Ja Rule. MB ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #48 ******************************