From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #47 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Sunday, February 16 2003 Volume 03 : Number 047 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] NP/NS: Mix looking for new owner [Stef Hurts ] [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh [Carolyn Dorsey ] [loud-fans] new email address [Jenny Grover ] Re: [loud-fans] genmai cha [Dave Walker ] Re: [loud-fans] genmai cha [Jenny Grover ] [loud-fans] More about aging rockers [Carolyn Dorsey Subject: [loud-fans] NP/NS: Mix looking for new owner Hi there, I've got a copy of a mix CD I made last September lying around here and I want to get rid of it. It's for free. First is first. Here's the track listing: - - Les Rita Mitsouko: Cool Frinisie - - Eels: Thats Not Really Funny - - Stuart Champion Damon: Yellow Cat - - Carla Thomas: Something Good (Is Going To Happen To You) - - Buscemi: Calling All Drama Queens - - King Uszniewicz & The Uszniewicztones: I Saw Her On The Beach - - Ernie: I Don't Want To Live On The Moon - - Badly Drawn Boy: A Peak You Reach - - Lali Puna: Bi-Pet - - Frank Popp Ensemble: Hip Teens (Dont Wear Blue Jeans) - - The Rudy Schwartz Project: Miracles - - Marty Gold And His Organ Ensemble: Sentimental Journey - - Jeans Team: Keine Melodien - - Manu Chao: Bongo Bong - - 2 Many DJs: No Fun/Push It - - Peter Sellers & Sophia Loren: Goodness Gracious Me - - Basement Jaxx: Wheres Your Head At - - King Missile: The Indians - - Ignatus: Faits Divers - - Flo & Eddie: Nikki Hoi - - Telepopmusik: Breathe (extended version) - - The Triffids: Rosevel - - Simian: One Dimension Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:29:23 -0800 (PST) From: Stef Hurts Subject: [loud-fans] Re: NP/NS: Mix claimed by... ...Carolyn D! Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 11:15:42 -0500 From: Carolyn Dorsey Subject: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh If you have time this interview is worth a listen. http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/6589 John Strausbaugh recently wrote a book called Rock Til you Drop. He says rock and rollers should think about hanging it up at age 30 and move into other genres. Rock is a young person's game. He compares rockers to ballet dancers and sports figures who physically need to retire at a pretty young age. (He specifically is talking about rockers) He's especially hard on the Stones, he believes that they are especially embarrassing! I don't think he's saying anything that most of us hadn't thought of but it's an interesting conversation. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:36:55 -0500 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh > John Strausbaugh recently wrote a book called Rock Til you Drop. He says > rock and rollers should think about hanging it up at age 30 and move into > other genres. Rock is a young person's game. Another approach to the same problem is to have all rock writers hang it up immediately, regardless of age, and move into other genres. Then we won't need a continuous turnover of rock talent to give the media something fresh to write about. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:53:19 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh In a message dated 2/15/2003 12:37:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, sallitt@post.harvard.edu writes: > John Strausbaugh recently wrote a book called Rock Til you Drop. He says > > rock and rollers should think about hanging it up at age 30 and move into > > other genres. Rock is a young person's game. > > Another approach to the same problem is to have all rock writers hang it > up immediately, regardless of age, and move into other genres. Then we > won't need a continuous turnover of rock talent to give the media > something fresh to write about. - Dan > I agree. Has anyone checked out the article, by the writer Jody Rain, whose most recent book was on White Christmas the song, in the NY Times Sunday Arts& Leisure section about how 'adult' rock, like Norah Jones, Aimee Mann, Elvis C and so on, are 'boring' compared to all that rap out there. I have no doubt she'd think the same about Scott. While she sanely says that todays teens will one day think 'kids' music is garbage, I would say she is one of those rock writers who needs to calm down and write more about Bing Crosby. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:46:25 -0500 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh > Norah Jones, Aimee Mann, Elvis C and so on, are 'boring' compared to > all > that rap out there. Well, isn't that true in a nearly objective sense? We've raised a generation on Short Attention Span Theater, so we can't really be surprised that so many of them would rather jump around to "Work It" than make a pot of tea and curl up with old Joni Mitchell albums and the Sunday crossword. Fortunately, listeners age just like musicians and writers, so if they kids don't want to deal with the adults, that's probably fine with everybody. My favorite tea at the moment is genmai-cha, a Japanese green tea with brown rice in it and a wonderfully comforting popcorn-like flavor. Lovely. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:59:41 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: [loud-fans] genmai cha glenn mcdonald wrote: > My favorite tea at the moment is genmai-cha, a Japanese green tea > with brown rice in it and a wonderfully comforting popcorn-like > flavor. Lovely. That is strange tea. I have some. A very toasted cereal taste to it. Interesting, but I'm not sure I really like it. I can't decide. Sometimes it seems appropriate and sometimes the thought of having it at that moment is ghastly. It's definitely not for everyone's taste. In fact, I have it because my mother-in-law bought it and didn't care for it. Popcorn didn't occur to me, more like puffed rice, but there is something comforting (and breakfasty) about that taste. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:49:02 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: [loud-fans] new email address Please note that I have a new email address. It's now sleeveless@zoominternet.net Jen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:47:07 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] genmai cha Glenn, Jen, other tea afficianados... can anyone recommend a good US supplier for teas, mailorder? I think some sort of "tea of the month" thing with samplers and such would be great -- does anyone do this? -d.w. np: Marmoset, _Today It's You_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:57:33 -0500 From: Jenny Grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] genmai cha Dave Walker wrote: > Glenn, Jen, other tea afficianados... can anyone > recommend a good US supplier for teas, mailorder? > I think some sort of "tea of the month" thing with > samplers and such would be great -- does > anyone do this? I don't know of a tea of the month service, though I'm sure there must be one. I buy most of my teas in stores, based on what looks good or interesting, or brands whose teas I generally like (and I must confess to having bought quite a few teas primarily to get their containers). Two mail-order places you might want to try are http://www.redtopcrane.com/ and http://www.stashtea.com/ Red Top Crane lets you order a free sample, or a variety sampler for cheap. Their teas are quite nice and they have a large variety. Stash is pretty popular. You can get their teas in coffee houses, boutiques, health food stores, etc. They're not my favorite brand overall, though some of their teas are alright. But maybe that's just me and my personal taste. Market Spice in Seattle makes a mean spice tea. They don't have much of a website, but you can go here http://www.marketspice.com/ and get instructions for getting on their mail-order catalogue list. They sell good bulk spices, too, and my cats prefer their catnip even to my own home-grown catnip. Jen nd: Stash Earl Grey with Double Bergamot (now with twice the cancer causing ingredients!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:58:53 -0500 From: Carolyn Dorsey Subject: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers While I don't entirely agree with what John Strausbaugh has to say in his interview, I do agree with him that some performers seem to lose something-though I'm sure many will disagree with me-performing rock and roll songs that have a kind of energy that is about being young and rebellious when they are way past that phase of life. If people enjoy seeing older acts perform then I think that's great, who cares. I was kind of glad to see The Who and Paul McCartney a few years ago. They played all their hits which was nice to hear. On one hand I cheer people on who are my age and are continuing to do what they love and entertain people. And I think it can be very limiting to put too many personal boundaries on what's age appropriate. On the other hand, I think some performers seem to lose their dignity when their performance is a reenactment of what they were doing 30 years ago, running around on a stage acting like they're 23 doing the same kind of music. But that's their choice. That's who Mick Jagger is, I can't imagine a show with him sitting on a stool playing a bunch of blues standards, although that might be interesting. It just seems to me that some people can't accept that they're older and they hold onto the same props they used when they were in their youthful prime. And it really depends on the artist and the persona that they've developed . Some grow artistically in other ways, others hold onto the same persona and do the same thing, and they're making big $ doing it. I haven't even seen this book he wrote and I never read him too much when he was editor of the NY Press, I just thought in this interview he touched on many interesting points about growing artistically and being authentic and all that. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:59:19 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh On Sat, 15 Feb 2003 AWeiss4338@aol.com wrote: > I agree. Has anyone checked out the article, by the writer Jody Rain, > whose most recent book was on White Christmas the song, in the NY Times > Sunday Arts& Leisure section about how 'adult' rock, like Norah Jones, > Aimee Mann, Elvis C and so on, are 'boring' compared to all that rap out > there. I have no doubt she'd think the same about Scott. Which Sunday? I can't find it on their website. Having read only your paraphrase of it, I will only say two things: 1) I'm incredibly sick of "rap" being used as some kind of reductio ad absurdum, as if the natural state of all other music is to be better than rap. You seem to be appealing to that idea in dismissing the article. 2) If we're only talking about the past year, I do in fact think that hip-hop, as a genre, did far better than Aimee Mann and Elvis Costello (I haven't heard Norah Jones.) I stand by that statement even if you only look at the segment of rappers who are most likely to find an audience among people who listen to Aimee Mann. And yet I like Scott. How can it be? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:12:00 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 06:59 PM, Aaron Mandel wrote: > 1) I'm incredibly sick of "rap" being used as some kind of reductio ad > absurdum, as if the natural state of all other music is to be better > than > rap. You seem to be appealing to that idea in dismissing the article. Not really rap, per se, though if this track is indicative they seem to have found the sweet spot somewhere in the zone where electroclash meets hip hop: http://www.ruben.fm/gc/ (requires QuickTime) How's the rest of the record? Anyone? -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:18:27 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaugh On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 07:12 PM, Dave Walker wrote: > Not really rap, per se, though if this track is indicative they seem > to have found the sweet spot somewhere in the > zone where electroclash meets hip hop: Sorry to follow up my own post -- on a subsequent listen, it's more of modernization of Minneapolis funk than anything like hiphop (this guy has clearly been inspired by Morris Day) -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:40:51 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers Quoting Carolyn Dorsey : > While I don't entirely agree with what John Strausbaugh has to say in > his > interview, I do agree with him that some performers seem to lose > something-though I'm sure many will disagree with me-performing rock and > roll songs that have a kind of energy that is about being young and > rebellious when they are way past that phase of life. And this is very much to the point. I too haven't listened to the article - if there were a transcript, I might read the damned thing - but again going from the summary, it sounds as if Strasbourgh is taking one particular situation (oh, say, Steve Perry from Aerosmith) and generalizing to all "rock" musicians. Plenty of songs have nothing to do with that kind of energy. I could also go off on a rant about the misperception that rock has always been about "rebellion," or at least that the nature of that "rebellion" has changed dramatically, from being initially a more or less internal state in response to a real and present stuffiness, to an excuse for any sort of acting-out well beyond what would much better be called "being an asshole," but I won't bore you with it. I'll further not bore you with the idea that at least part of that last has to do w/certain rock crits trying desperately to salvage a pathetic notion of macho from their pasty, lard-ass'd, basement-dwelling selves - "well if I can't be Rambo, I'll love some rock'n'roll guy for being the macho asshole I wish I were..." I might agree that "rock" (whatever that is) is about "energy" (whatever that is) - but if what glenn meant by saying that older rockers "by definition" are less energetic had to do with tempo, noisiness, or other conventional signifiers of excitement, I'll respond only that I'm bored to tears by pointless screaming and the playing of the same-ol well-practiced scale patterns at 700mph, as nominally "exciting" as same is said to be, and conversely can be very much excited by subtlety, the intake of a singer's breath, a particular guitar tone, the micro-hesitation of that phrasing; and that age has nothing to do with whether or not those things come through. (I'm still baffled by glenn's tastes generally, but I can say that he does seem to appreciate subtlety - so I don't think that's what he meant. But I'm sure he'll clarify.) Interesting example, perhaps: on the Rhino reissue of _Imperial Bedroom_, the bonus disc contains some radically different, original versions of several tracks. Of one of them, "Tears Before Bedtime," Costello observes in the liner notes something to the effect that the rawer version on the bonus disc is probably much more honest emotionally. True - and that meaning of the song comes through more clearly in the sort of bluesy R&B of that original arrangement - but that version also misses much that the album version brings out, obviously enough the clever vocal arrangement and springier rhythmic feel, but even including what might be a greater depth attendant upon the fact that, unlike the earlier version, that emotional charge also comes with the notion that the character is perhaps afraid to face up to it fully, and the arrangement's cleverness works *toward* that goal. The two together - the somewhat obvious affect of the lyrics, and the subtler pleasures of how the more baroque arrangement works both with and against that affect - create a subtler, and to me ultimately more powerful, effect. And that's more exciting to me, in the long run, than the easy, obvious, even if more immediately compelling emotionality of the early draft. And maybe wanting and loving such subtleties is itself a mark of fogeydom - except that I pretty much have always liked that sort of thing in music, seldom preferring the straightforward and clear to the somewhat guarded. Apparently I've been forty since my early teens. The irony of Strasbourgh's position is that it's nearly as pathetic for a writer old enough to know better (that is, to not imagine that *everyone* feels like the narrator of, say, "Walk This Way") to still want to draw all of his musical pleasure from much younger performers working through the dramas of adolescence, as it is for performers in their fifties and sixties to strut and fret like blueballed adolescents. If Strasbourgh were a nineteen-year-old zine editor from Poughkeepsie, I'd respect that sort of opinion a lot more. > I haven't even seen this book he wrote and I never read him too much when > he > was editor of the NY Press Ah. That last fact explains much... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: I suspect that the first dictator of this country will be called "Coach" :: --William Gass np: _Turn Down the Suck!_ (a mix from Stewart Mason) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:04:37 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaug In a message dated 2/15/03 6:59:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, aaron@eecs.harvard.edu writes: > Which Sunday? I can't find it on their website. > It's actually going to be in tomorrow's paper. It's for those who get home delivery they get some sections on Saturday. > Having read only your paraphrase of it, I will only say two things: > > 1) I'm incredibly sick of "rap" being used as some kind of reductio ad > absurdum, as if the natural state of all other music is to be better than > rap. You seem to be appealing to that idea in dismissing the article. > No I'm not saying that at all. I don't think rap is better or worse than any other type of music. I like rap, it's just that I'm tired of critcs saying that rap is what the future is and if you don't 'get it' you're a reactionary old fogie. What I don't like about some rappers is their tendency toward the worst kind of homophobia/sexism, something that is always conveniently overlooked by these critics. And there is nothing cool, hip or anything about bigotry. And it's not just rap, it's any music that does that. In a nutshell, I'd rather hear Norah Jones than Emenem, becuase I like her music, and she's never been anti woman or anti gay. Nether have the other rockers I mention. > 2) If we're only talking about the past year, I do in fact think that > hip-hop, as a genre, did far better than Aimee Mann and Elvis Costello (I > haven't heard Norah Jones.) I stand by that statement even if you only > look at the segment of rappers who are most likely to find an audience > among people who listen to Aimee Mann. And yet I like Scott. How can it > be? > It did for sure. But only if you think of rap, at least the rap that makes > the charts, as the lowest common denominator. And there are many people on > Mann's list who like rap, including Emenem. So yes, I agree with this. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:08:59 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Ill-treating the Lazarus Horse (do not read!) Y'know, I'd love to stop talking about The Evil Ol' Record Industry, except they keep amazing me by being such genetically mutated freaks as to keep finding yet more feet to stick in their mouths. To wit, from an article in the NYT on mix CDs (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/30/technology/circuits/30mixx.html): Frank Creighton, director of "anti-piracy efforts for the [RIAA]," states his belief that makers of mix CDs are violating the law. The difference between mix CDs and mix tapes (which, apparently, Creighton and by extension the RIAA have no problem with) is that CDs are of better sound quality. My flabber is so gasted that my tongue is tied: let's see, exactly how does my making a mix CD hurt the RIAA in any way conceivable? Does the presence of a copyrighted song on such a CD cause the recipient to *not* buy the CD from which the song comes? (Much more likely the opposite - I've bought many CDs based on hearing a song on a mix.) Do I not buy the song because it's on a mix CD I make? (well, okay - if I downloaded the song expressly for the mix CD, maybe - and I have done that a few times. But in the past, I just would have skipped the song, or borrowed it from a library - not bought the CD.) Creighton tickles his esophagus with his little toe by further stating that *individual mix makers* might be a target of legal action by the RIAA in the form of cease-and-desist letters. Yes, that's right: the RIAA is threatening to sue its customer base for (apparently) not buying friends second copies of CDs they already own. The reasoning (okay, I insult human capacity by calling it that - my apologies to any humans reading this) underlying these little episodes becomes clear when Creighton notes that such cease-and-desist orders might deter customers until such time as record companies "try to give consumers legitimate alternatives." In other words, Creighton's trying to preserve an as-yet nonexistent market segment, consumers of on-demand audio mixes provided by record companies. (At least that's one interpretation, one that assumes Creighton actually meant anything by that "legit alt" phrase. I'm doubtful he actually did mean anything.) Of course, had the industry responded as creatively to the onset of digital files early on in such technologies' development, they might have staved off such threat as those files may constitute - and probably increased the industry's sales, broadened the variety of available music, etc. But by *not* doing so, and by threatening those potential consumers instead of developing the technology, and by behaving in a strictly reactive fashion rather than creatively developing consumer-friendly technology that would also make profits for the industry, Creighton and other RIAA stooges continue to ensure their own onrushing obsolescence. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ :: "Provoking an attack absolutely does NOT mean that the attack would have :: happened eventually otherwise. It's like going into a bar and acting like :: a dick until someone punches you and then having that guy arrested for :: assault. And a 'pre-emptive strike' is just going into a bar and hitting :: the biggest guy you see as hard and fast as possible because he's clearly :: a threat." :: --Jeme Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:20:36 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaug Quoting AWeiss4338@aol.com: > What I don't like about some rappers is their tendency toward > the > worst kind of homophobia/sexism, something that is always conveniently > overlooked by these critics. But that has nothing to do with rap as a genre. I'm sure you're aware that rock, country, blues, jazz, and any other genre you could name produces many examples of "the worst kind of homophobia/sexism" (is there a good kind?). I'm also a bit dubious about that convenient overlooking: it seems like every other article I read about hip-hop (even the positive ones) has a ritual finger-shaking directed at exactly those issues. I wouldn't call myself a rap fan, in that I know very little of the genre, but I too think it's suspicious when rap's bad behavers call forth these sorts of mini-sermons, when similar notions in other music seldom do. I mean, Johnny Cash sang about a guy who "shot a man in Reno just to watch him die" - and he'd been in prison even! - and yet somehow the nation didn't have a moral panic attack about the imminent threat of rural white southern men... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:30:11 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Ill-treating the Lazarus Horse (do not read!) II: Electric Boogaloo > (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/30/technology/circuits/30mixx.html): A couple more words about this, less tendentious this time: I think it's interesting that mix CDs are presented as easier and less time-consuming to make than mix tapes. In theory, this should be true...but for myself, probably because I'm too compulsive, they generally take as long or longer. (I'm curious if this is true for others here.) Why? More options, of course: I'm constantly fiddling with the files, trying to adjust the levels so the mix flows better, making sure tracks don't begin or end abruptly if the source album has segues, getting rid of excessive silence at beginning or ends of tracks, sometimes even fuxing with the sound itself by compressing, equalizing, etc. I'm sure plenty of people simply rip the tracks from the CD, put them in order with a mouse, and hit the burn button - but I rarely if ever do it that simply. And then there's the cover art issue... One more word on the RIAA: if sound quality is the issue, then my fuxing around with the tracks suggests that, in fact, what ends up on my mix CDs is *not* what the industry releases; that, essentially, I'm creating remixes. I still think it's sort of absurd: apparently, the idea is that when I buy a CD, I have the right to listen to it only on certain stereo systems and, it seems, never when anyone else might hear it (will they issue headphones with CDs next?), since sharing the tracks is tantamount to file sharing in Creighton's reasoning... Next idea: to discourage piracy, the new release by Eminem will be issued only on Edison cylinder (that sound-quality issue just makes duplicating *too tempting*) and only in a run of ten copies. To recoup costs, each copy will cost $1 million, and will be equipped with a self-destruct capacity (wouldn't want to quash the market for other releases). There: that's an economic model! ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: Californians invented the concept of the life-style. :: This alone warrants their doom. :: --Don DeLillo, _White Noise_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:30:24 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Interview with John Strausbaug On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > I mean, Johnny Cash sang about a guy who "shot a man in Reno just to > watch him die" - and he'd been in prison even! - and yet somehow the > nation didn't have a moral panic attack about the imminent threat of > rural white southern men... But on the other hand, Johnny Cash wasn't writing and releasing songs in a narrative environment where constant exhortations to "keep it real" and other flimflammery were used to create public images of performers as actual criminals. Also, homophobia and sexism are actually enacted in a lot of mainstream rap music, whereas singing about killing someone doesn't constitute murder. I don't think it's silly to care about those things, nor to talk about mainstream rap as a separate genre from other rap for some purposes. It's just lame to elide the distinction. a ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers > And this is very much to the point. I too haven't listened to the > article - if there were a transcript, I might read the damned thing - > but again going from the summary, it sounds as if Strasbourgh is taking > one particular situation (oh, say, Steve Perry from Aerosmith) and > generalizing to all "rock" musicians. Plenty of songs have nothing to do > with that kind of energy. Steve Perry was in Aerosmith? -) > I could also go off on a rant about the misperception that rock has > always been about "rebellion," or at least that the nature of that > "rebellion" has changed dramatically, from being initially a more or > less internal state in response to a real and present stuffiness, to an > excuse for any sort of acting-out well beyond what would much better be > called "being an asshole," but I won't bore you with it. I'll further > not bore you with the idea that at least part of that last has to do > w/certain rock crits trying desperately to salvage a pathetic notion of > macho from their pasty, lard-ass'd, basement-dwelling selves - "well if > I can't be Rambo, I'll love some rock'n'roll guy for being the macho > asshole I wish I were..." I'm quicker to ascribe that sort of behavior to rock fans, not rock critics. But perhaps I flatter myself. Not limited to musical obsessions either--take the stereotypes of "Star Trek" fans, or Greil Marcus' essay on "USA Combat Heroes." I don't have ROCK 'TIL YOU DROP to hand, but Strausbaugh does bring up, from the radio interview, his exchange with Ellen Willis over the true nature of "the revolution" as vaguely defined by sixties experiences and expectations. Willis agrees with Strausbaugh that the political revolution never happened, but that the cultural revolution changed America and the world forever. Strausbaugh responds with a barely-supressed giggle. > The irony of Strasbourgh's position is that it's nearly as pathetic for > a writer old enough to know better (that is, to not imagine that > *everyone* feels like the narrator of, say, "Walk This Way") to still > want to draw all of his musical pleasure from much younger performers > working through the dramas of adolescence, as it is for performers in > their fifties and sixties to strut and fret like blueballed adolescents. > If Strasbourgh were a nineteen-year-old zine editor from Poughkeepsie, > I'd respect that sort of opinion a lot more. That isn't completely true, since Strausbaugh shows great enthusiasm for the reconstituted David Johansen, the one who sings old timey music with a band called the Harry Smiths, and isn't afraid to put on his reading glasses onstage. He also doesn't dismiss old recordings and films of old acts, so long of course as we properly recognize them as relics of a bygone era, drained of the power and relevance they once commanded. He seems awfully fond of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes, though. Candy Ass, too. Not that they're "anything new." But of course. A few other observations on the radio show, allowing that I'm only up to the part about Grace Slick: Interviewer and interviewee both come off as sniggerly unsympathetic to people who've had colostomies. Strausbaughs thesis: All rockers over age 30 offstage and into the coffin (carousel?) right now. When confronted with Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Bryan Ferry, the Residents, and others, he inevitably stonewalls: "not rock'n'roll." And what is rock'n'roll? "Rock'n'roll is a very simple art form. It's three chords and it's 'baby baby baby'...after awhile you just can't recombine that DNA..." As an unpaid college radio DJ my flummoxes included playing records at the wrong speed, playing songs with lots of naughty words in them, playing AC/DCs Whole Lotta Rosie for a nightcap, and trying to kill the console by playing "Metal Machine Music" and "Jesus Built My Hotrod" simultaneously. But I could certainly put a caller from the outside world on the air. A pity that no one from the station sent in an email telling "Kenny G" how to work the phones, and then called him to see if he got it right. That sort of thing happened often enough at KAOS-FM, and I appreciated it. Perhaps the one potentially helpful person in New Jersey just got back from a colostomy. Still eager to hear the Black Keys, Andy ************ DEAR GENEVA CONVENTION REQUEST : EXEMPTIONS I have a large group of Americans, Europeans, and Asians who are so evil, death is too good for them. They have agreed if proven evil, which they have been, they will be chopped up, to death, very slowly. I would like to see this be a 20 year process, with no pain meds, starting with their fingertips, daily beatings and ass-rapings. I would like to simulate Hell for them as they are that evil. As they agreed to this, I need an exemption to the rule against torturing prisoners. I'm sure you will agree. Jennifer Pincetl [signature] The Anti Satanist Raver Comm. Pres. the United States of Earth ************ - --a photocopy taped to a bulletin board outside Cafe Strada, Berkeley, California (courtesy Matthew Weber) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:46:41 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers Quoting "G. Andrew Hamlin" : > > And this is very much to the point. I too haven't listened to the > > article - if there were a transcript, I might read the damned thing - > > but again going from the summary, it sounds as if Strasbourgh is > taking > > one particular situation (oh, say, Steve Perry from Aerosmith) and > > generalizing to all "rock" musicians. Plenty of songs have nothing to > do > > with that kind of energy. > > Steve Perry was in Aerosmith? -) You mean you didn't hear that Steven Tyler and Joe Perry combined their DNA and had a clone made of both of them together? > > If Strasbourgh were a nineteen-year-old zine editor from Poughkeepsie, > > I'd respect that sort of opinion a lot more. > > That isn't completely true, since Strausbaugh shows great enthusiasm for > the reconstituted David Johansen, the one who sings old timey music with > a > band called the Harry Smiths, and isn't afraid to put on his reading > glasses onstage. He also doesn't dismiss old recordings and films of > old > acts, so long of course as we properly recognize them as relics of a > bygone era, drained of the power and relevance they once commanded. As I said, my comments came with the reservation that I hadn't listened to the interview. But y'know, defining exceptions out of one's theory so one can hold to that theory is kinda lame - although awfully damned common. And this from Aaron Mandel, in response to my comment: > On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > I mean, Johnny Cash sang about a guy who "shot a man in Reno just to > > watch him die" - and he'd been in prison even! - and yet somehow the > > nation didn't have a moral panic attack about the imminent threat of > > rural white southern men... > > But on the other hand, Johnny Cash wasn't writing and releasing songs in > a > narrative environment where constant exhortations to "keep it real" and > other flimflammery were used to create public images of performers as > actual criminals. Also, homophobia and sexism are actually enacted in a > lot of mainstream rap music, whereas singing about killing someone > doesn't > constitute murder. I don't think it's silly to care about those things, > nor to talk about mainstream rap as a separate genre from other rap for > some purposes. It's just lame to elide the distinction. While I see this point, I wasn't exactly eliding the distinction so much as commenting on some interesting differences that I think are relevant even taking into account the differing narrative environments of the genres. And yeah, "singing about killing someone doesn't constitute murder" (unless, perhaps, it's Billy Corgan singing, and the speakers are turned up really loud), but "homophobia and sexism are actually enacted" in lots of other genres, too - if I understand Aaron correctly. Being sexist *is* enacting sexism, I'd say. (Again allowing for narrative, character-playing, etc., to an extent) I think it's also true that while "keeping it real" is a mainstream rap commandment, the genre (at least in my limited experience thereof) also allows, among its fans at least, for the same sort of dramatic, ironic, and just plain humorous storytelling and character-acting like Cash in this song, and that a lot of non-fans miss those things in favor of taking the narrator for the singer, and the story for literality. I'm just saying, sure, some rap (and some rappers) can be nasty, even to the point of criminality - but the same can be true of other genres, and I don't think "rap" should bear the brunt of that fact. I don't think many of the anti-rap public soundbiting one hears makes any distinction between mainstream rap and non-mainstream, either. (FWIW, I might also note that on the most popular recording of the Cash song, he's singing to an audience of prisoners...who cheer at that line. Rather a chilling moment, for me at least. So there's at least *some* sense of realness there, at least if you know the circumstances of the song, although Cash never claimed actually to have killed anyone.) ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "am I being self-referential?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:40:42 -0500 From: glenn mcdonald Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers I didn't use the words "by definition", so I can't comment on what I might have meant by them if I had. But I'll take this opportunity to say the opposite, which should be uncontroversial to nearly the point of obviousness: age does not determine energy level. And I agree that it is perfectly possible for an individual to be excited, transfixed, inspired and subject to a host of other uplifting emotions by music that is neither fast nor tricked out. But if we take "exciting" and "boring" in their superficial sense, as lots of people tend to, then Missy Elliot and _xXx_ and Grand Theft Auto are exciting, and Aimee Mann and _The Hours_ and Scrabble are boring. And why anybody would waste a lot of time trying to convince Pepsi-addled GTA geeks that quiet, subtle records are worth slowing down for (or, for that matter, trying to convince mellow Wilco fans dozing on screen porches that they *need* to wake up and get with Ja Rule), I don't really know. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:18:49 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More about aging rockers On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, glenn mcdonald wrote: > But if we take "exciting" and "boring" in their superficial sense, as > lots of people tend to, then Missy Elliot and _xXx_ and Grand Theft Auto > are exciting, and Aimee Mann and _The Hours_ and Scrabble are boring. I think this set of examples is taking easy extreme cases to argue that there's a clear difference between "exciting" and "boring", and to suggest that most people only like one or the other. What aesthetic properties does Missy Elliott share with GTA3? The only thing I can come up with is that both seem to depend on a certain kind of sparseness for their emotional effect, which doesn't seem exciting or boring to me. a ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #47 ******************************