From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V3 #36 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, February 5 2003 Volume 03 : Number 036 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Music Biz rant(s) [delete at will] [Dana Paoli ] [loud-fans] Long as we're not quite on the subject... ["G. Andrew Hamlin"] [loud-fans] Arson Garden ["Aaron Milenski" ] [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) [dana-boy@juno.com] Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs J] Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] Arson Garden [Tim Walters ] Re:Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) [dana-boy@juno.com] [loud-fans] last change for poll [Aaron Mandel ] [loud-fans] Dumb Salon [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Arson Garden [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) [jenny grover ] [loud-fans] Eudora's peppers [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [loud-fans] III: Return of the King ["Brian Block" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:31:26 -0500 From: Dana Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music Biz rant(s) [delete at will] If I go to jade tree records, I can hear Jets to Brazil's new single in its entirety. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, our friend's younger sister recently auditioned to be their new drummer. No word on whether she got the job or not, but she thinks it went well. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:43:09 -0800 (PST) From: Stef Hurts Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Whhaaaa? Roger Winston wrote: > Stewart is the new Michael Jackson? The old one is falling apart. - -Stef Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:40:46 -0800 (PST) From: "G. Andrew Hamlin" Subject: [loud-fans] Long as we're not quite on the subject... > Hey, since when did Andy become "G. Andrew"?? Excuse me while I go play > the Grand Piano... Happened when I started using webmail. Which brings me to my question: just the other minute, my Outlook Express was compacting my inbox, my computer froze up, and I had to clock the computer. Although the rest of the computer booted up okay so far as I can tell, my Outlook inbox will now not open, and I apparently can't receive new messages to any folder of Outlook (though I can still use webmail). Anybody know how to fix that? Offlist is fine. In the wee wee hours, Andy "I never needed my rock'n'roll heroes to be likeable, which is good because I wanna kill this guy." - --Julian Cope on Electric Eels singer David E., from http://www.headheritage.com/unsung/albumofthemonth/index.php?review_id=242 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:41:08 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: [loud-fans] Arson Garden I was just litening to the first Arson Garden album, UNDER TOWERS. I think it was from 1989 or so (probably not much later since I have it on vinyl.) In any case, I forgot how good it is and am wondering if anyone here is familiar with the work they did afterwards. I haven't heard any of it and am curious. Aaron _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:03:21 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) I like this subject line much better! Anyway, Jeff said: it's eminemly - uh, eminently - reasonable to expect CDs to do what they have always done. >>>>>>>>>>>> The thing about CDs not playing on a car player I'll grant. They should fix that. But CDs haven't always been rippable to mp3s on your computer (since no one did that back when they were introduced). I don't see any reason why the industry should have a duty to support that ability. And, of course, you *can* still copy any CD if you do it via analog. I know that it's less convenient, but the difference in sound is virtually nil. Even with a copy-protected CD, you're in no worse shape than you would have been back in the days when home taping was killing music. I just want to emphasize that my main beefs with the Salon article are the fact that it trots out the same old dumb arguments that all these articles do without offering any real proof to support them, and that it seems intent on painting the record industry as evil idiots. I think that the music industry is facing a major problem: theft of their services has become acceptable and easy. That's a really big thing for any industry to face, and it's awfully snide and silly to give them shit for failing to find a good solution quickly. And for all of our references to how great DVDs are, how much people love to buy DVDs, etc., we should keep in mind (as the movie industry clearly is, if you pay attention to *their* legal goings on) that DVDs are currently protected from wide-scale sharing by bandwidth, and that that condition won't be permanent. We'll see how many DVD's people buy when you can download them at KaZaa in ten minutes. Unrelated: latest eMusic discovery: The Dwarves' album "The Dwarves are Young and Good Looking" is really catchy, only mildly offensive, and by downloading it at eMusic you don't have to hide the CD when your parents come over. I vastly prefer it to "Blood, Guts and Pussy" though maybe that just means I'm a girly-man. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:14:30 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) Quoting dana-boy@juno.com: > seems intent on painting the record industry as evil idiots. I think the record industry is quite skilled at self-portraiture in this case. I think > that the music industry is facing a major problem: theft of their > services has become acceptable and easy. (inevitable rejoinder): Since they've profited for years on the easy theft of musicians' services, I just can't get too awfully upset. That's a really big thing for > any industry to face, and it's awfully snide and silly to give them shit > for failing to find a good solution quickly. I at least give them shit because instead of realizing that the customers who allow them to make their money are dissatisfied, they turned on those very customers with name-calling, legal threats (in some cases), and sabotage of products. Gotta go teach... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:20:52 -0500 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) > I think > > that the music industry is facing a major problem: theft of their > > services has become acceptable and easy. > >(inevitable rejoinder): Since they've profited for years on the easy theft >of musicians' services, I just can't get too awfully upset. I totally agree with Jeff on this one, but I also see a bigger point, which is that change is inevitable in every situation. If some industry falls apart, what's the big deal in the long run? One thing disappears, another appears. I really don't see any point in feeling sorry for people who are simply businesspeople. If they're any good at what they do they'll find some other industry to be part of. It's not like they'd feel bad if any of their competitors went out of business. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:34:22 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 10:03 AM, dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > The thing about CDs not playing on a car player I'll grant. They > should fix that. But CDs haven't always been rippable to mp3s on your > computer (since no one did that back when they were introduced). I > don't see any reason why the industry should have a duty to support > that ability. How about the DAT Tax? http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/bad_laws/ahra.html Correct me if I'm wrong, but the issue is that there is no way to make CD's non-rippable without making them violate the Red Book standard. Philips has argued (justifiably, I might add) that the value of their trademark is damaged when companies sell things that claim to be audio compact discs but which are not. "CDs" which violatethe standard undermine consume confidence in the product (in much the same way that Sun's Java standard was weakened by Microsoft implementing a broken JVM.) > And, of course, you *can* still copy any CD if you do it via analog. > I know that it's less convenient, but the difference in sound is > virtually > nil. Even with a copy-protected CD, you're in no worse shape than you > would have been back in the days when home taping was killing music. Why should people have to jump through hoops to take audio from media that they have purchased and move it to another device? Why make things harder for the honest consumer (the silent majority, who just wants the same songs on her iPod as on her home stereo?) Why require ugly hacks like running RCA cables from the stereo to the computer, when the music, in digital form, already resides on the purchased medium? By this rationale, we should ban sheetfeeders and collaters on photocopiers. After all, the user can always feed pages to be copied into the copier one at a time, and they'll be no worse off than medieval monks were when they had to individually hand copy pages. > That's a really big thing for any industry to face, and it's awfully > snide and silly to > give them shit for failing to find a good solution quickly. Larger industries have turned on a dime much more quickly. The computer software industry has coped with illegal copying for decades, yet has somehow managed to soldier on with minimal physical copy protection and legal bullying (excepting BSA raids) Any idiot could have told them in 1991 that as the then-called "Information Superhighway" reached the general consumer, new business models were going to have to be considered. They had 7 or 8 years to come up with something before Napster forced their hand. They came up with nothing, except killing off the single, terminating the contracts of career artists, and contributing to an odious payola system that has virtually killed terrestrial radio. If that's the best they can do, then they put their own neck in the noose. -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:45:12 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) Larger industries have turned on a dime much more quickly. The computer software industry has coped with illegal copying for decades, yet has somehow managed to soldier on with minimal physical copy protection and legal bullying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that that's true. I recall a lot of copy-protecting etc. back when I was in high school. I remember that, was it Beagle Brothers?, made a big deal about not copy protecting their stuff. If my memory is correct, the software industry went along a very rocky road before figuring out what to do. Also, one of the ways that the computer software industry has coped is by not giving us a choice about what software to use. We keep using software and DVDs as examples of smart business practice, and I find that very odd, given that we're all probably opposed to monopolies and to trying to throw people in jail for hacking copy protection. I suspect we'd be pretty unhappy if the music companies actually did emulate the software companies. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:58:15 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Aaron Milenski wrote: > I really don't see any point in feeling sorry for people who are simply > businesspeople. If they're any good at what they do they'll find some > other industry to be part of. It's not like they'd feel bad if any of > their competitors went out of business. And contrariwise, if the majors dying were to scuttle the existence of music I like, I would be sad no matter how little I cared for the jobs that most of the people involved had been doing. I just have no idea whether that would happen. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:02:47 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 10:45 AM, dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > Also, one of the ways that the computer software industry has coped is > by not giving us a choice about what software to use. No choice in software? How about this (fanciful) interpretation: the Big 4/5/6 (I lost track a few mergers ago) are analogous to Microsoft (in operating systems, office software, browsers) and independent labels/musicians are analogous to the Microsoft alternatives (Apple/Linux, Corel/Lotus/OpenOffice, Mozilla/Safari/Opera, respectively.) For the ambitious consumer, there can always be choice. Britney Spears _is_ Microsoft Word. :) -d.w. embracing the silliness ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:04:32 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] more on that dumb salon article (ns) On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Dave Walker wrote: > The computer software industry has coped with illegal copying for > decades, yet has somehow managed to soldier on with minimal physical > copy protection and legal bullying (excepting BSA raids) The music-industry equivalent of that legal bullying is the kind of thing that makes me say the RIAA are jackasses, though. My perspective on it: Microsoft, as far as I can tell, has simply decided that people who already use their software but do it illegally are easier to market to than the comparatively few consumers that could use their products but actually don't. Marketing to this group, however, takes the form of threats and moralising rather than cheery TV pitches. It annoys me, but on the other hand I can live with it. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:20:16 -0800 (PST) From: Stef Hurts Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) Why don't record labels lower the price of new CD's to, say, $8.99 for a couple of months and see if sales pick up? Wait, that's too simple... - -Stef Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:34:41 -0800 From: Tim Walters Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Arson Garden >I was just litening to the first Arson Garden album, UNDER TOWERS. >I think it was from 1989 or so (probably not much later since I have >it on vinyl.) >In any case, I forgot how good it is and am wondering if anyone here >is familiar with the work they did afterwards. I haven't heard any >of it and am curious. UNDER TOWERS is still my favorite, but it might be just because I heard it first. Both WISTERIA and THE BELLE STOMP are well worth picking up, and in the same stylistic ballpark. - -- Free Exquisite Music : The Doubtful Palace : http://www.doubtfulpalace.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:38:39 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) Britney Spears _is_ Microsoft Word. :) >>>>>>>>>>> It's funny: I was going to say the exact same thing!! Hopefully she won't crash as often, though. I wonder if Christina Aguilera is Apple. I really like her new single (is it new? I mean the one she performed at the awards show) a lot. Anyone know who wrote it? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:25:05 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: [loud-fans] last change for poll Turnout is down in this year's poll! How sad. If you haven't voted yet and want to ameliorate this, the URL is http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~aaron/poll/lf02 At the end of the work day tomorrow (5pm EST) I'll be closing the poll. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:45:28 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon How would a model music file-sharing system work? Well, there's a reason I'm not a wealthy entrepreneur or someone who's become rich selling business planning books, but... I can see tiered fidelity, tiered length-of-storage, and the idea of adding value to downloads for those who want to pay or to pay more. I already tossed out the idea of appending ads to "official," free MP3s (or whatever sound-file format there might be). I guess I imagine something like this: you go to a site, and you can listen to (stream) anything for free. If you want to keep anything, make it portable to iPods or burnable to CDs (without massive hacking, that is), there might be a per-song fee, or ads attached. There might also be flat rates for products (i.e., download an "album" for a set price, pay a little more for artwork, info, etc.), or subscriptions at varying rates depending how much music people keep. What I really wonder, though, is this: the purpose of any business is to maximize profits. One way the music industry does this, of course, is by selling much more than music: not only ancillary physical products, but image, style, trends, etc. One way they're able to do this is via massive centralization...so that what a teenage girl in LA likes is very likely what a teenage girl in New Orleans, in Saskatoon, in Kuala Lampur likes. That way, all those teenagers buy the same thing - and so (we'll call this object of desire "Britney." No reason...) Britney is more than just a "musical artist" [editorial gloss deleted], she's a lifestyle signifier, a flag to be flown establishing one's membership in Britney Nation. The decentralization almost inevitable in any mature file-sharing system (because no matter how much the industry restructures and gets an in, there's going to be massive black-market sharing, rather like the software industry now) makes such monolithic marketing structures harder to create and sustain. And this means, under current models at least, less assurance of a steady and massive flow of profits. It would be nice if the gigantism afflicting the record industry were killed off, and a lot of "small, mobile intelligent units" (to quote Robert Fripp) were around instead. But that gigantism is essential to the whole world economic system, so...fat chance its happening on its own. Another thing: I think very few file-sharers think of themselves as rebelling, or as pirates. I think they just think of convenience, and that music has, to their ears, always been free anyway. This is just a new way of doing it. The only way to stop it is not only to get these people's attention, but (and very riskily) to criminalize their behavior - thereby criminalizing the very people the industry relies upon.* What's the solution? You don't stop it; you adapt to it, and try to build on it. (* see below) Instead, for example, of trying to sell ten million Britney songs, sell a million songs ten times...and distribute the cost of doing so (which happens anyway, given how much easier it is to make a decent sounding recording at home. The recording industry doesn't need to subsidize the actual recording to the extent they once did). In a way, the whole anti- file-sharing thing is rather like the war on drugs: people as a whole are just not going to stop using drugs, though some may, and some may stop using some drugs, and some may never use them. To talk of a "drug-free" society, though, is either ridiculously naive or ridiculously cynical (because no one with a brain can believe it could be, it must be being used for ulterior motives). Same thing with free music. In how many years of human civilization has music been a commodity anyway? Very few, really. * One problem with the megaprofits model is that it relies almost entirely on casual fans - and those are the very people most likely *not* to pay for what they can get for free. A smaller, more segmented market would rely to a higher degree on more serious fans, who not only are likelier to be willing to pay money for what they love but whose exposure to more music is likely to spur on further sales. That is, the statement "Free MP3s increase sales" is false for casual fans, whom the industry relies upon (thus their fear - I'm conceding one point here to the indudstry) but true for more serious fans...who, if the industry were to rely more upon, by diversifying its content and (more importantly) and diversifying its promotion and encouraging such diversity, would likely increase sales. Example: new media. Early adapters are often fans; and new media almost always brings back into print titles that had languished out of print in the vaults for years. This is true with DVDs today, and has been true with CDs in the past. Even now, with CDs well established, back catalogs are (in my subjective and unanalyzed view, anyway) much more available now than they were in the late seventies and early eighties when I began collecting music. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. :: That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! :: --Thomas Pynchon, _Vineland_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:41:22 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Arson Garden On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Tim Walters wrote: > >I was just litening to the first Arson Garden album, UNDER TOWERS. > >I think it was from 1989 or so (probably not much later since I have > >it on vinyl.) > >In any case, I forgot how good it is and am wondering if anyone here > >is familiar with the work they did afterwards. I haven't heard any > >of it and am curious. > > UNDER TOWERS is still my favorite, but it might be just because I > heard it first. Both WISTERIA and THE BELLE STOMP are well worth > picking up, and in the same stylistic ballpark. i think i like "wisteria" best, but the alubms are similar enough that they don't have distinct sonic identities. all can be found for cheap in used bins. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:04:12 -0500 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > > Also, one of the ways that the computer software industry has coped is by not giving us a choice about what software to use. There are choices, and more are being developed all the time, they just scare people who aren't knowledgeable about computers and how they work. Many people would rather take the easy/lazy route and let Microshaft spoon feed them (and charge them by the spoonful) their own brand of pap. Jen - -- You can't pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you don't know where your bootstraps are. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:54:33 -0500 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Dumb Salon Article (ns) Re: software. It also depends a bit on your line of work, I think. While I have paid for MS Office and various versions of Windows (starting at 1.0), I have spent probably 30 times more on non-MS software and prefer free open-source stuff for the web (Linux/Apache/PHP, etc.) and not just because it's free but because it's better. But I have no problem working with MS software if it makes the most sense for the context (e.g., client is already entrenched in a MS environment). And obviously individuals can change software much more readily than large organizations. In any case, there is a ton of software out there from which to choose. Personally, I think the old days of vinyl with nice big covers was great, the middle ages of cds was both better and worse, but I have completely adapted to music-as-file and I think a service subscription model is the only one that will survive. Let's face it, the other way is over. People are lazier and care less. I used to write checks to pay bills, now I do it online. I used to go to the post office to buy stamps, now I buy postage online and print it out at home. I used to go to the grocery store to buy groceries, now I do it online and just pick them up (still working up to delivery; I guess part of me is stuck in 1999). I used to buy records, now I just pay $9.99/month to emusic. These days, erecting barriers and alienating your customers doesn't work - you've got to lube the transaction and make it effortless. I don't think music has to be completely free all of the time (although I'm not sure I'd care if it was), but the business model is for someone else to worry about - when I watch TV I am not worried about how the actors are paid, etc. Plus other parts of the music industry aren't affected: monstrous arena shows, for example. The Rolling Stones and promoters, etc., can still make a shitload of money... at least, until they die. And for people who actually make/"reinterpret" music: days are long. You can have a job and pay the bills and still have time to write songs, record, and play shows. It really is quite feasible. Do it yourself. Production costs are way down - mp3s are even cheaper to make than cds. The music industry isn't evil, but when it dies from being old, big and slow, will anyone cry? jenny wrote: > There are choices, and more are being developed all the time, they just > scare people who aren't knowledgeable about computers and how they > work. Many people would rather take the easy/lazy route and let > Microshaft spoon feed them (and charge them by the spoonful) their own > brand of pap. > > Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:36:32 -0800 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] [Fwd: Art censorship at the UN] i'm sorry no one seems to have caught this post. this is certainly disturbing to me. move it, replace it, make jokes about hte irony, but don't cover the thing. sheesh. i think it would be pretty darn apropriate right where it is. - -- It's well known that if you take a lot of random noise, you can find chance patterns in it, and the Net makes it easier to collect random noise. Dr. James M. Robins, Professor of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at Harvard - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: "jenny grover" To: "loud-fans" Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: [loud-fans] [Fwd: Art censorship at the UN] > > Guernica Reproduction Covered at UN > > > > NEW YORK.- The "Guernica" work by Pablo Picasso at the > > entrance of the Security Council of the United Nations > > has been covered with a curtain. The reason for > > covering this work is that this is the place where > > diplomats make statements to the press and have this > > work as the background. The Picasso work features the > > horrors of war. On January 27 a large blue curtain > > was placed to cover the work. > > > > Fred Eckhard, press secretary of the U.N. said: "It is > > an appropriate background for the cameras." He was > > questioned as to why the work had been covered. > > > > A diplomat stated that it would not be an appropriate > > background if the ambassador of the United States at > > the U.N. John Negroponte, or Powell, talk about war > > surrounded with women, children and animals shouting > > with horror and showing the suffering of the bombings. > > > > This work is a reproduction of the Guernica that was > > donated by Nelson A. Rockefeller to the U.N. in 1985. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:57:44 -0500 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] [Fwd: Art censorship at the UN] On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:36:32 -0800, me wrote: >i'm sorry no one seems to have caught this post. this is certainly >disturbing to me. move it, replace it, make jokes about hte irony, but >don't cover the thing. sheesh. > >i think it would be pretty darn apropriate right where it is. Since there was no reference, I assumed it was a joke. Can anyone confirm it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:16:30 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] [Fwd: Art censorship at the UN] On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 06:57 PM, John Swartzentruber wrote: > Since there was no reference, I assumed it was a joke. Can anyone > confirm it? I saw it turn up on a few blogs last week. Here's the clearest cite I could find via Google: http://washingtontimes.com/world/20030203-13680812.htm - -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:35:49 -0600 From: steve Subject: [loud-fans] Fwd: Polyphonic Spree Internet Ticket Presale Feb 6th This is an interesting band. You can see what they're about at the website - > www.thepolyphonicspree.com Begin forwarded message: > From: The Polyphonic Spree > Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 4:32:54 PM US/Central > Subject: Polyphonic Spree Internet Ticket Presale Feb 6th > > Internet ticket presale through www.thepolyphonicspree.com on Thursday > February 6th at NOON EST. Check the pop-up window and the tour dates > page for the link. The following shows will be available: > > 4-10 Empty Bottle, Chicago, IL > 4-11 Metro, Chicago, IL > 4-12 Fine Line Music Cafe, Minneapolis, MN > 4-14 Fox Theatre & Cafe, Boulder, CO > 4-17 Richard's on Richard's, Vancouver, BC > 4-18 Graceland, Seattle, WA > 4-19 Graceland, Seattle, WA > 4-21 Aladdin Theatre, Portland, OR > 4-22 WOW Hall, Eugene, OR > 4-30 Nita's Hideaway, Tempe, AZ > > You will be required to use the following username and password. > > Username:pspree > Password:tickets - - Steve __________ "When we were getting ready to announce for the 1992 campaign, the Bush people said to us, 'Don't run this time -- wait four years and you'll have a free pass. If you do run, we'll destroy you.' And I said to Bill, 'What are they talking about -- how could they do that?' And now we're finding out." - Hillary Clinton to David Talbot, March 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:35:20 -0800 (PST) From: Gil Ray Subject: [loud-fans] Digital daze...or the state I'm in! It's been very interesting reading the various posts concerning the state of the music industry. Changes are on the way. Some rejoice, some grumble, some have pretty great ideas about what and how it's gonna happen. It has certainly given me food for thought, plus the courage to try to deal with it all. For nearly 20 years I've worked at City Hall Records. Now, it is one of the last independent distributors left in this country.(last man standing, right?!). Please note the term Independent. While cd's may seem archaic to some, we are not as evil as the Majors, but yes, the digital age is upon us and things are gonna change. City Hall Records (CHR) was started about 30 years ago, in a retailers basement. Blues,World,Gospel,R&B etc..were the mainstays that got the deal running. It grew and grew, led by a man most people cannot deal with.Famous stories abound of his personal battles with Tower Records bigwigs, and frankly just about anyone that he feels is not doing the job right. When I started working there, CD's had not been born. It was all vinyl and tapes. Soon, another man there happened to have a connection with Marshall Chess, and before you knew it, we had Grandmaster Flash's first 12 inch. That was the bomb that led to major growth for us. Say what you will, but CHR was a BIG player in jump stating indie rap. . Especially West Coast style. MC Hammer, Too Short, Master P, all started small with us. I get a kick seeing Master P (P=Percival!)on TV with all of his $$$$! I once had the pleasure of watching a delivery truck clip his Toyota bomb by the bumper and pull him and his scraggly-ass posse out into the street! Rap hit big and we did well. It's a pretty awesome sight, seeing a truck pull in with 15 pallets of the newest Ice Cube release, and not even unload it. Just re-label it and ship it to our customers! Some of our rap artists are now dead. Some are in prison. Some actually have business sense and turned themselves into millionairs >BEFORE THE MAJORS EVEN CAME KNOCKIN!!<. There was a dance label we carried called Megatone Records. Very gay dance music for very gay dancers at very gay clubs in S.F. Now, every single last person that worked at that label is dead. All of them.Some of the artists,too. The rap thing has died down quite a bit. We still sell some, but no hits. We still have over 500 labels of other types of music, but I do miss the hits. CHR also employs about 30 people. WE have had some amazing folks put in time here. Mike Wilhem (Flaming Groovies/Charlatans, Spencer Dryden (Jeff. Airplane), Hell, Peter Albin of Big Brother and the Holding Co. still works there as advertising director! Scott Miller and Joe Becker worked here for about as long as they could stand it, and escaped to go on to much better things. Other people that work here could easily be described as misfits, myself included. We have people that probably could never find meaningful work if not for CHR. It's a quirky place, in a quirky business, but it is MUSIC. There is a very human face here, and I will miss it, when it goes. I don't know how long we're gonna last. The bad news is that alot of our customers are going out of business or filing Chapter 11. Wherehouse Ent just filed Chapter 11 for the SECOND TIME in a few years! Great, pay us .25 on the dollar. That's a good way to get out of debt. Wish my credit cards would do that. Tower is in deep shit. Borders has no clue as to how to buy. The good news is that many of our competitors have gone out of business, too. Last man standing! Some good news,huh? We are ok for now, but I'm sure, sooner or later, we'll be gone. I have no idea what I'll do afterwords. What stated as a temporary job turned into a career. I know nothing else. Thank god Stacey has us covered if things get bad. She works....music retail. I remember when CD's first came out and there was much yappin' about the COLD digital sound of CD's versus the WARM wonderful sound of vinyl. I still don't hear it, but I sure do feel it. Thanks, Gil Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:21:07 -0800 From: dc Subject: [loud-fans] rock photography a good friend of mine named Ryan has been photographing the Seattle music scene, for fun and beer if not profit, and recently launched a website showcasing his craft: www.aural-fixation.com. he's now looking for writers, music fans and other thoughtful individuals willing to submit comments or short essays on "rock photography," whatever that may mean, to be included on the site. i think everyone who has submitted comments so far plays in the bands he's photographed, so their inclusion has something of a self-aggrandizing quality. he's looking for more objective comments, maybe on the history of rock photography, or the relationship of one medium to the other, or your favorite rock photo ever and why that is, or whatever. i know there's at least one darn fine "rock photographer" on this list, and others who write with considerable authority on most subjects relating to popular music and culture. my friend offers no promise of recompense, beyond gratitude and the chance to have your thoughts displayed on an obscure website. he's also willing to link to your own site if you maintain such. submissions can be made via the "contact" thingie on the site. as they used to say on Usenet, "thanks in advance." doug c vicinity of seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:36:37 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Eudora's peppers Anyone have Eudora as their e-mail reader? I think they're the one that has a feature to rate the *spiciness* of e-mails for content (sexuality, profanity, etc.). I ask because a colleague of mine praised an e-mail I'd sent to the grad student/lecturer mailing list, while noting that Eudora gave it two peppers. In a response to him, I excerpted the bits that I guessed might have given it that ranking...an e-mail that itself earned *three* peppers, even though everything in it was directly quoted from the two-pepper post. So I'm presuming that it's not just content, but prevalence of content that Eudora ranks. Anyone know how this works? And how many peppers are there, you goddamned whoreson motherfucking dog-raping cocksuckers and eaters of monkey shit, whose slack-titted mothers service camels and fly-dicked fathers lick the assholes of rats? ..Jeff, who regrets not telling Todd (the colleague) about Brianna's e-mail address, and who observes that I coulda tossed another sparkler in there by if I'd left out the space between "who" and "regrets" (but only if "grets" meant anything). J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. :: That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! :: --Thomas Pynchon, _Vineland_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 06:35:44 +0000 From: "Brian Block" Subject: [loud-fans] III: Return of the King Hello, all! Just a quick announcement, for those of you who used to read my "33 rebellions per minute" review site, that while i haven't felt ready to reactivate my site (with the responsibilities entailed), i have written my first dozen music/movie/book reviews for Epinions. If you can't search me by user name (Voxpoptart), consider this your fresh chance to view an opinion from someone other than Andy on his favorite movie of 2001 (THE PRICE OF MILK); you can link to my other reviews from there. - -Brian _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V3 #36 ******************************