From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #406 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Saturday, November 23 2002 Volume 02 : Number 406 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] list-makers painted blue in 2002 ["Brian Block" ] Re: Fundamental issues (was RE: RE: [loud-fans] HI!!!) [Dana Paoli ] Re: [loud-fans] sitting on a pitchfork [OptionsR@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] sitting on a pitchfork [Michael Mitton Subject: [loud-fans] list-makers painted blue in 2002 I guess i'm surprised to find that cares what Pitchfork's collective Top 100 list does or doesn't include. Like any list that is a collection of a dozen or more people's opinions, what basically happened to the list is that almost everything on it has been praised extensively elsewhere. There were actually two albums on the list i hadn't heard of, and maybe five more i'd heard of but y'all might've missed, but all seven were avant/electronic albums and apparently fairly influential in that field. Don't get me wrong: i _like_ listmaking, i just like individual lists full of idiosyncratic rounding errors and chances to explore, like seeing HEYDAY, OIL AND GOLD, and SECRET TREATIES on someone's all-time top ten and deciding that if Permafrost's IN HARM'S WAY is in that company it must be worth buying. (Haven't decided if that particular deduction worked out, mind you). Or even lists made by a group of close friends, which is what the Pitchfork list from the 1990's is, and _it_ has surprises on it, although nothing quite as appealingly far-fetched as getting several dozen mutually chatty internet geeks to vote Paula Carino's AQUACADE the 2nd-best album of 2001. Since it's a little early to make Best of 2002 lists, i do at least figure we can rave about our favorite pre-2002 albums we've bought this year. I particularly want to stand up for: Nothing Painted Blue's THE MONTE CARLO METHOD, a 1998 favorite of Jeffrey's and aaron's that i think is exceptionally Loudfan-centric (as well as far more to my tastes than any other Nothing Painted Blue album that i've tried). Franklin Bruno writes songs packed with dense internal rhyme schemes, wordplay, and casual extended metaphors involving Mercator projection maps or real-estate development. But the songs also rock out in sprightly convoluted melodies worthy of Scott; Mr. Bruno sings in a rough nasal voice that he uses better than it was intended for; and not once, in the entire record, do i find a case where the rhyming gets in the way of his catching the exact emotional tones he's aiming for (and sure, a majority of the songs are about relationships and girls). Other late discoveries worth quick endorsements: Ben Folds, ROCKIN' THE SUBURBS, 2001 (smart-ass turns out to be just as attentive to empathetic detail as to cutting detail, and so far, thank goodness, it's just the early Elton John who influences him some) Runrig, THE STAMPING GROUND, 2001 (exactly as elemental, as Scottish, and as purposefully uplifting as glenn has claimed) Brendan Benson, ONE MISSISSIPPI, 1996 (Scott's 2nd-favorite record of its year, it diverges from standard smart power-pop mainly in album pacing and in Brendan's vital habit of setting his vocal rhythms, the guitar rhythms, and the drum rhythms in odd and productive tension against each other) System of a Down, TOXICITY, 2001 (evangelical paganism, sung and barked to arrangements that seem to speculate on how "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Bohemian Rhapsody" would have turned out as brutal thrash/metal songs) Jon Anderson, OLIAS OF SUNHILLOW, 1976 (the singer of Yes, in the middle of their prime or nadir as adventurous musicians completely unafraid of being too skilled or pompous or longwinded, teaches himself to play all the rock instruments at a level of rudimentary skill, and records - without his bandmates - a gently wondrous album that still belongs in spirit with the Yes canon) Blue Up, SPOOL FORKA DISH, 1995 (semi-trippy pop music, a long-lost halfway point between Belly and the Darling Buds, only more schizophrenic than either of those; even though the best songs are the experimentally drony exceptions, the whole album just makes me happy) I guess i also don't prefer lists that number everything precisely. cheers, - -Brian _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:23:38 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: Who Are Ecto In a message dated 11/22/02 2:06:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, dmw@radix.net writes: > the new-age thing is a fairly recent development; the early records are > more folk-oriented and show the influence of bush much more plainly (and > there are considerable timbral similarities between the vocalists). i > think her recorded output is spotty m'self, but she's a riveting live > performer; not at all dour (as i'd guessed beforehand) and the > multi-octave range (3+) is astounding. > I've only heard her early music, it does sound like Kate Bush, maybe it's > becasue I'm not a huge Kate Bush fan is why I don't like Rhodes. There was > one though, "Tell The Girl" (I think that's the title) that was good, and > an amazing cover of Bowie's Ashes To Ashes as well. She does have a great > voice. > Andrea, i dare say you might like ecto if you didn't find the traffic > level burdensome. (probably a few less posts daily than loudfans) > > > > I'll have to look at them a little more. I did do a quick look and liked what I saw. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:43:53 -0800 From: elizabeth brion Subject: [loud-fans] Boys and girls and lists I've been on some music lists whose subscribers were mostly female. (That is an ambiguous phrase that I simply can't think how to fix right now. I just had a really long drive and I'm kinda addled.) Not for long, though. Not a week would pass when they wouldn't start trading "virtual cheesecakes," wishing someone a happy birthday with 97 individual posts to the list with no content other than "happy birthday from me too!", or fergawdsakes talking about their Beanie Baby collections. That sounds spectacularly sexist, I realize, but there's no comic exaggeration - that's exactly what was happening. It's not that I have anything against women, but I seem to prefer the company of women who gravitate toward groups that are made up of as many or more men than women. I'm mentally running through my real-world female friends and realizing that this holds true for all of them. And I'm hardly a tomboy - show me any consumer product that's pink, fluffy and/or sparkly and I'll buy it immediately. (Maybe even a Beanie Baby, although I wouldn't discuss it in public forums.) So I have no idea why any of this is true for me. Elizabeth, who wasn't prejudiced against Douglas Coupland at all until she read some quotes from him on this very list ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:34:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Tim Walters" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] list-makers painted blue in 2002 "Brian Block" wrote: > Nothing Painted Blue's THE MONTE CARLO METHOD, a 1998 favorite of > Jeffrey's and aaron's And mine! Bruno's new solo album A CAT MAY LOOK AT A QUEEN is ruling my CD player right now. The songs are as brilliant as ever, and the music and recording are more fully baked than on his previous solo albums. TEMPTING: TOOMEY SINGS BRUNO, on the other hand, hasn't made it back for a second listen, although I'm sure it will eventually. My first impression is that its attempted sophistication misses by a fairly wide margin, and that Toomey doesn't have the chops to sing the way she's trying to. But it may grow on me. As for the question of list-making in general, I find that lists that attempt consensus (a la Pitchfork) are interesting discussion starters, while quirkier individual lists (e.g. Joe Harrington's ongoing top 100 in Blastitude) are more fun to read. I've discovered that I don't much enjoy making my own lists, for whatever reason. - -- SLAW * SNAKES & LADDERS Experimental popular children's music for adults http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Slaw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:38:24 -0500 From: Overall_Julianne@isus.emc.com Subject: Women Who Run With the Loud-fans (was RE: [loud-fans] HI!!!) > From: Amy Lewis [mailto:alewis@forrester.com] > julianne wrote: > > > CONTROVERSY CONTENT: > > This thread has caused me to ponder the possibility that > Mark brings such > a > > barrage of feelings with him in an almost caricature-like > representation > of > > the Feminine, that perhaps the 'balance' brought by women > i'm curious as to what "feminine" aspects you correlate with > mark's style > of posting, unless you mean a girliness in the microscopic detail with > which he shared his emotions. I probably ought to clarify what I mean by "the Feminine" (an archetype) as opposed to 'feminine' (an adjective). "The Feminine" = emotional, nurturing, feeling, etc [as opposed to "The Masculine" = strong, protecting, providing, etc]. These are both archetypes, and both men and women have traits from both the Feminine and Masculine archetypes. "feminine" = up to the observer, but to me I think more of physical appearance and gestures, than archetypes. > i think that the barrage of feelings about mark stem more from the > too-much-information, self-centered, highly defensive nature > of his posts. I agree. In fact, I think the 'too-much-information' part and overly-emotive is such an over-the-top caricature of The Feminine, that it is likely to elicit an even harsher response from The Masculine side of others. Not just the guys, I'm probably in this category, too. > that and he became such a caricature that he became an easy target for > snide commentary. maybe once everyone gets cracking on their > best of 2002 > lists, we'll start seeing some more interesting, stimulating, and fun > posts. I can hardly wait for those lists to roll in! > fondly remembering the rush of good feeling and > get-to-know-your-neighborism that swelled earlier this year > when we all > submitted little bio pages to dmw, > amy That was great fun. Can we do that again? -julianne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:48:16 -0500 From: Overall_Julianne@isus.emc.com Subject: Fundamental issues (was RE: RE: [loud-fans] HI!!!) > From: dana-boy@juno.com [mailto:dana-boy@juno.com] > Kinda like, if I'm going to a show and drag queens take over, > I probably won't try to 'out-dress' the performers. I'll sit > in the back and enjoy the show until it gets too weird. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Which show is this where the drag queens took over? Maybe it was the Victoria's Secrets fashion show. It doesn't *matter* what show, silly. The point is, that I went to see one thing, and something else showed up. Kinda like I joined the loud-fans for the banter about music and like interests, and periodically Mark effuses all over the place. > Are you > sure you don't mean "rebels from Chechnya" 'cause I'm having > trouble remembering the last drag queen hostage situation. > Actually, what *does* this mean? I'm quite sure I don't mean "rebels from Chechnya", but thanks for asking. > I'd like to discuss it, but > it's so freakin' bizarre I don't quite know what to say. As > I read the whole paragraph about Mark and the Womanly > Balance, it just seems to me that fundamentally you've got > issues with gay men. Don't be so sensitive. Where in the world do gay men come into this conversation? Are you trying to imply that all gay men are drag queens? That would be news to me. No, I don't have issues with gay men. I don't even have issues with drag queens. It was simply an analogy, albeit one that did not work for you. Figuratively Yours, -julianne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:52:14 -0500 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: Women Who Run With the Loud-fans (was RE: [loud-fans] HI!!!) On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:38:24 -0500, Overall_Julianne@isus.emc.com wrote: >> fondly remembering the rush of good feeling and >> get-to-know-your-neighborism that swelled earlier this year >> when we all >> submitted little bio pages to dmw, >> amy > >That was great fun. Can we do that again? I'm John Swartzentruber. I lurk except when I post little smart-ass comments or when Donnie Iris or Crack The Sky are mentioned. This week my wife and I went into contract on a house in Swarthmore, PA. Tomorrow my oldest son turns three. Next Saturday my youngest son turns one. In another month and a half, I turn 40. Life is good. Even some of the bad parts. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:31:08 -0500 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: [loud-fans] Mark Staples: what we do all day In lieu of actual human sacrifice (we are obviously too "civilized" for that), the tribe designates a victim to assuage the guilt of the entire tribe. This strange murder is what we do all day. Rene Girard ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 2002 21:53:48 -0500 From: Paul King Subject: Re: [loud-fans] sitting on a pitchfork On Fri, 2002-11-22 at 13:49, Steve Holtebeck wrote: > > ... most evil person since Hitler ... > > Does this mean it's time to invoke the H*tler rule and talk about > something else? > > So what does everyone think of Pitchfork's top 100 albums of the 80s > (http://pitchforkmedia.com/top/80s/)? WHAT?!!? no Soft Cell? No Game Theory? No Dead Kennedys? I have a problem with such lists. It is laudable to attempt to list what appear to be mostly "alternative" records. However, such attempts are subjective, the preferences of the people who drew up the list. Big Black is there, but not The Dead Kennedys, for example. By what criteria was "Songs About F*cking" more important than "Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables" or "Bedtime for Democracy"? That may be a tough question for some people, but what I go by is seeing how they survive the test of time. It is nearing the end of 2002 and I still see rebellious teens sporting the DK and Alternative Tentacles logos on their clothes, even 16 years after they broke up. When I was a substitute teacher, one Grade 11 student showed me an essay entitled "Don't Fight the Media, Become the Media", and she seemed surprised when I acknowledged the reference to Jello Biafra, and recognised her references to The Camcorder Truth Jihad. Few under 18 have ever heard of Big Black, however. And who are the Meat Puppets? I've heard of them; I am just speaking in terms of that special quality of surviving generational gaps like the the Dead Kennedys did. > I thought it was kind of > interesting, even though DAYDREAM NATION is nowhere near the best album > of the 80s, it's not even the best album from the 80s with the word > NATION in the title. > > -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:55:53 -0500 From: Dana Paoli Subject: Re: Fundamental issues (was RE: RE: [loud-fans] HI!!!) > Kinda like, if I'm going to a show and drag queens take over, > I probably won't try to 'out-dress' the performers. I'll sit > in the back and enjoy the show until it gets too weird. I don't even have issues with drag queens. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gee, *I'd* have issues if they kept taking over the shows I went to see. It sounds so rude of them. Especially when they get weird and you can't enjoy the show anymore. C'mon, I'm curious. What the hell were you referring to. A car show? A balloon show? A tupperware show? The muppet show? Did a gang of drag-queens take over the Miss Cornhenge pageant last year? - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:35:59 -0500 From: "Vallor" Subject: [loud-fans] top o the pops Someone mentioned Translator. I think it was Translators first album that told me the nasty things that major labels can do. I first saw them opening for the Zeros at Barrington Hall, they had this unbelievable duo of songs that ran into one another...true musical brilliance. "Brand New Eyes"/"Everywhere". They always played it, every show. They signed and the caustic introduction song (Brand New Eyes) to Everywhere was never heard again. Sad. Here's Byron Coley's best of the 80's from a 1990 issue of Spin. A pretty smart list in places. Coley dedicated the very funny Motley Crue bio he wrote under the name Billy Dwight to Game Theory's Real Nighttime. A-Bones - Free Beer For Life Beat Happening - s/t Black Flag - Damaged Black Sun Ensemble - s/t (Reckless) Borbetomagus - Seven Reasons for Tears (I forgot to check back for Day 2 of the Pitchfork list - which Borbetomagus did they end up picking?) Butthole Surfers - Cream Corn Eugene Chadbourne - Eddie Chatterbox Chain Gang - Mondo Manhattan Copernicus - Deeper Couch Flambeau - The Day The Music Died Crystallized Movements - Mind Disaster Death of Samantha - Laughing in the Face... Demo Moe - Demolish Die Kreuzen - s/t Divine Horsemen - Snake Handler DOS - s/t Dream Syndicate - Days of Wine... Dredd Foole and the Din - Eat My Dust Drunks With Guns - s/t Eleventh Dream Day - Prairie School Freakout Embarrassment - s/t Roky Erickson and the Aliens - The Evil One John Fahey - I Remember Blind Joe Death Fish and Roses - s/t Flesheaters - A Minute to Pray Frogs - It's Only Right and Natural Galaxie 500 - Today Game Theory- Real Nighttime Giant Sand - Storm Gibson Brothers - Big Pine Boogie Great Plains - Naked At... Green On Red - s/t EP Meat Puppets - II Minor Threat - Out of Step Minutemen - What Makes a Man... Misfits - Walk Among Us Mofungo - End of The World, Part II MX-80 Sound - Out of the Tunnel Neats - Monkey's Head... 100 Flowers - s/t Opal - Happy Nightmare Baby Panther Burns - Behind the Magnolia Curtain Al Perry and the Cattle - Cattle Crossing Plasticland - Wonder Wonderful Wonderland Plugz - Better Luck Psycho Daisies - Sonically Speaking Pussy Galore - Dial M Saccharine Trust - Worldbroken Salvation Army - s/t Savage Republic - Tragic Figures Sister Ray - Random Violence Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation Peter Stampfel and Steve Weber - Going Nowhere Fast Suckdog - Drugs Are Nice Swans - Filth Russ Tolman - Totem Poles... Turbines - Last Dance Before Highway Volcano Suns - Farced Walkabouts - Cataract Wipers - Youth of America World of Pooh - Land of Thirst X - Los Angeles Yo La Tengo - President - - Dan Vallor - ----------------------------------------------------------- King Record Lathe Universe Web http://home.attbi.com/~cassetto/ Xpressway List Group http://www.egroups.com/group/Xpressway - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:03:08 EST From: OptionsR@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] sitting on a pitchfork In a message dated 11/22/2002 11:50:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, smholt@ix.netcom.com writes: > So what does everyone think of Pitchfork's top 100 albums of the 80s > (http://pitchforkmedia.com/top/80s/)? I was thrilled to see that This Heat's "Deceit" made the list (in the Top 20, no less!), but how The Mekons' massively wonderful "Rock & Roll" gets stuck in the lower 90's while The Smiths' "The Queen Is Dead" makes the Top 10 (let alone makes the list at all) completely eludes me. Then again, I don't get why anyone favors PE's "Nation Of Millions" over "Yo! Bum Rush The Show" either. Did I miss a page or was Robyn Hitchcock's "I Often Dream Of Trains" not mentioned at all? The Dream Syndicate's "Days Of Wine And Roses"? Pretty much the entire genre of metal? Boo, hssss, kill the umpire, etc. Still, I guess it would be a moderately helpful list for novices who wanted to get some idea what the less cheesy moments of 80's music were like. Hey, man..."Thriller" was never my scene and I don't like ABBA, Mike Bollman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:12:18 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] sitting on a pitchfork > > So what does everyone think of Pitchfork's top 100 albums of the 80s > > (http://pitchforkmedia.com/top/80s/)? The one pleasant surprise to me was seeing Duran Duran's Rio on the list. Not only was that the first tape I ever considered buying (at the ripe age of 9--I didn't buy it, I ended up making a copy of dc's cassette), but I still think it's a fantastic album. In fact, Beatles aside, this has to be the greatest album ever that had wide appeal among gradeschoolers. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:17:02 -0500 From: Overall_Julianne@isus.emc.com Subject: RE: Fundamental issues (was RE: RE: [loud-fans] HI!!!) > From: Dana Paoli [mailto:dana-boy@juno.com] > Gee, *I'd* have issues if they kept taking over the shows I > went to see. > It sounds so rude of them. Especially when they get weird > and you can't > enjoy the show anymore. > > C'mon, I'm curious. What the hell were you referring to. A > car show? A > balloon show? A tupperware show? The muppet show? Did a gang of > drag-queens take over the Miss Cornhenge pageant last year? Whatever show you would like it to be. That's the fun, you get to decide. Okay, okay... I guess that sentence either needed more specifics or it was just bizarre. You might even accuse me of being vaguely strange. As if I'd be insulted by that.... -julianne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:23:16 EST From: OptionsR@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mark Staples: what we do all day/Beckon the paining exists Did I miss something while I was lurking? Has Mark Staples left the list again? He seems like an alright-enough guy, but the analogy I'd use is this: just because it's hot in a room doesn't necessary mean you have to walk around in a Speedo. Hey, I know I used to do the too-much-info thing myself for a while (cue reply:"Mike, ANY post you make is too much information." Ha.), but then I discovered the joy of getting drunk, calling people chosen at random from the phone book, and yelling things at them when they answer, like "You NEVER cared about me! You fucking LIAR!!!", and hanging up. That way, I let my feelings out and no one gets hurt. A few people may wind up somewhat bewildered, but it's no one I know, so fuck 'em. The Beck/Flaming Lips gig I went to last night was truly a Thing Of Wonder. If the tour stops in your town and they're even half as good as they were at Gammage, make a point of attending. "Spoonful Weighs A Ton" and the Teletubbies are now inextricably (inexplicably?) linked in my mind. Two twin turtles and a microscope, Mike Bollman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:33:17 -0500 From: "jer fairall" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] list-makers painted blue in 2002 Great idea for a thread! Here's mine: Langley Schools Music Project, INNOCENCE & DESPAIR (2001) Already discussed extensively here and elsewhere (there was even a special on VH1) but in case you missed it, this is a recently unearthed recording from the mid-70's of a bunch of Canadian school children singing songs like "Sweet Caroline," "Saturday Night," "Desperado," and even "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" under the guidance of their hippie music teacher. Has proven to be much more relistenable than I would have guessed after my first spin. The Faint, DANSE MACABRE (2001) A recreation of synth-pop circa 1985 so uncanny that I was actually able to confuse people into thinking it was some forgotten Depeche Mode or Human League album. Duotang, THE BRIGHT SIDE (2001) Canadian duo who play rock songs using mostly only bass and drums (not "drum and bass"), with the occasional trumpet thrown in when needed. In case it's not available in stores outside Canada, see www.duotangonline.com The Go Go's, RETURN TO THE VALLEY OF THE GO GO'S (1994) I almost always favor albums over compilations, but this 2 disc set has it all: the hits, some scrappy early performances, three new songs as good as anything they did before (or since, now) and a breathtaking live version of "Mercenary." It wouldn't have killed them to include their "I Wanna Be Sedated" cover, especially since they just stuck it onto the B-side of a now long-out-of-print single, though. Mystery Machine, HEADFIRST INTO EVERYTHING (1998) Had Sloan not decided, around the time of ONE CHORD TO ANOTHER or NAVY BLUES, to become retro-kitsch rock stars, this is what they might have ended up sounding like. Plus it would have spared me PRETTY TOGETHER. Mishima, HOLD MY BREATH (2001) Like Buffalo Tom attempting to become a perky punk-pop band and only half-succeeding enough to be a fascinating combination of the two. And so, an extra thanks to Brian not only for starting this thread but also for sending me the last two CDs on my list. Jer Race to Save the Primates - every click provides food! http://www.care2.com/go/z/primates ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:48:42 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] sitting on a pitchfork Quoting Steve Holtebeck : > So what does everyone think of Pitchfork's top 100 albums of the 80s > (http://pitchforkmedia.com/top/80s/)? I thought it was kind of > interesting, even though DAYDREAM NATION is nowhere near the best album > of the 80s, it's not even the best album from the 80s with the word > NATION in the title. I counted, and have about 78 of the 100 titles listed (I also have 76% of their '90s list at - apparnetly I should write for them). Notable omissions (besides this list's obvious favorites) would be the Psychedelic Furs' first two albums, the second and third Echo & the Bunnymen records, the first Pretenders album and _London Calling_ (anal-minded folks might claim both those for the '70s - but I don't think so). The list is clearly biased toward a particular (American indie-rock) perspective, but so's any list. Your notable omissions/agreements? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #406 *******************************