From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #390 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, November 8 2002 Volume 02 : Number 390 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries ["Roger Winston" ] Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries [John Sharples ] Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries [Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon On Wed, 6 Nov 2002 boyof100lists@juno.com wrote: > -Mark S., who just paid 69 dollars (earth dollars) for a week's supply of > a generic medication (not counting the cost of my visit). That's fucked > up. How much longer can health care costs spiral out of control before > there's rioting in the streets? I think I have to disagree with the notion that health care costs are spiraling out of control. Yes, I know that "inflation" in medical care is a long ways ahead of the CPI every year, and I know that medical care continues to grow in its share of GDP. However, the quality of health care available continues to increase, and no inflation measure knows how to deal with this. So here's a thought experiment from Alan Blinder (who, incidentally, would almost assuredly been the head of the Council of Economic Advisors if Gore were President): Would you rather have today's quality and technology of health care at today's prices, or 1960's quality and technology of health care at 1960 prices inflated by the CPI to today? If you would prefer the former, then you actually believe that the real, quality-adjusted price of health care has gone down. Of course, it's possible that current health care could cost less than it does. But as a generalization, I think it's a mistake to say that medical costs are out of control. I'm not comfortable with this formulation either, but I think it's more acurate to instead say that our technological ability to treat illness is out of control relative to our ability to pay for the technology. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:20:56 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon <> I'm afraid Mark will have to violate his privacy by going into more detail about his medication before he can expect any sympathy. I recently received an idiotic "Get Out The Vote" e-mail from a fairly prominent young feminist who related the sad story of her friend who was struggling to get $1,600 to pay for an abortion. When I wrote back to ask why the gal would have to pay that much for an abortion, she replied that her friend lived in Tennessee, where abortion is illegal. She probably believes that, too. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:17:28 -0500 From: boyof100lists@juno.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] formerly Paper Moon, now more Rosicrucian psychobabble JRT says: I'm afraid Mark will have to violate his privacy by going into more detail about his medication before he can expect any sympathy. I don't want your sympathy. I want your money. You want details? I've tried to stop so many of those these days. Okay then: My allergy inhaler costs about 74 dollars for a 30 day supply (no generic on it, and it doesn't last 30 days like it says anyway) and my Paxil prescription ain't available in a generic either (without that I turn into Mr. Snuffleupagus...I think you've read my posts when I'm in Snuffie mode before). The 69 dollar med was for an antibiotic that I actually need, for an ear infection (I've had these since I was a kiddie) that has lingered for months, zapping my energy and making me feel like total crap. I've felt so badly that I've been passing up subbing jobs, just working what I have to work pizza shlepping. I took one pill and it went right to work, and I feel much better. Will it work in 20 years? Doubtful if people who don't really need them pop them like Pez. I read a newspaper article a few months ago that there was the first case of a patient not responding to any antibiotics of any strength or duration or dosage for something or other, and this is obviously cause for alarm. Yeah, I need health insurance, but these days, that's like owning real estate or something. A real status symbol. Most Mcjobs don't provide it, and I cannot afford it on my own, and, with preexisting conditions, it probably wouldn't do me much good anyway. At my last job, they said I would have it after six months (which is why I took the damn job), and after I was there for two months they told me that was for supervisors only, and I would have to wait a year from my hire date, so I said, after they wouldn't let me turn the overhead lights out in the office and use a lamp because of my photosensitivity, "Screw this!!", and gave my notice. I actually make more money delivering pizza, and am happier doing that anyway. At least I don't have to shave (I look horrible when I shave...sensitive skin) and can listen to good tuneage. Until I get a job teaching for a school system full-time (most school districts I've found have excellent benefits btw, much better benefits than salaries...but I knew that from the beginning, and as long as I can get by doing something I enjoy I'm alright). At the present time, I can choose to be medicated and buy music, or have my own place (and I sure ain't giving up music...life would be sadly lacking without it). Also, unless you've got a significant other, having your own place ain't all it's cracked up to be anyway, but most people my age are turned off by someone living with their parents, so it's a Catch 22 (don't you just love it when a book's title becomes part of the culture?). And, I can't teach nonprovisionally until I complete 4 more classes, and a semester of student teaching, and I just got advisement for spring term to take two courses, so I plan to be teaching by the time my insurance pays for my midlife crisis therapy. - -Mark S. p.s. I'm having all the Democratic physicians in the US over at my house for a get together. My mom made hors d'oeuvres for 5. Think that'll be enough? ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:11:18 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] formerly Paper Moon, now more Rosicrucian psychobabble At Thursday 11/7/2002 09:17 AM -0500, boyof100lists@juno.com wrote: >(don't you just love it when a book's title becomes part of the culture?) This post made me feel all Bridges Of Madison County-y. Latre. --Rog FREE WINONA RYDER! HUMAN MILK FOR HUMAN BABIES! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:58:43 -0500 From: John Sharples Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries > Last time I checked, the government owned the > computers in my local public library. No, you do! I know this is a tangent, but does anyone know who coined the rhetorical device "Last time I checked, (obvious fact)" and when did it become the preferred cliche of smug, condescending a-holes everywhere? Another tangent: the remixed, remastered CD of Lennon's MIND GAMES kicks buttockos! I'd forgotten the Burrito Brothers' pedal steel player is on almost *every track*! Nice timing - this record is just dripping with Watergate-era paranoia! We don't want no pig brother scene, JS - ------------------------------- This mail sent through Brooklyn Law School WebMail http://www.brooklaw.edu/webmail - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:09:49 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] formerly Paper Moon, now more Rosicrucian psychoba bble My allergy inhaler costs about 74 dollars for a 30 day supply (no generic on it, and it doesn't last 30 days like it says anyway) and my Paxil prescription ain't available in a generic either (without that I turn into Mr. Snuffleupagus...I think you've read my posts when I'm in Snuffie mode before). The 69 dollar med was for an antibiotic that I actually need, for an ear infection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the number of CDs that you seem to buy while sponging off your mom, I'm not sure I can get all that worked up over a one time charge of $69 for antibiotics. Geez, I thought you were talking about your heart medication or something. Re: allergy inhalers for $74. Email me off list and I can *probably* give you some cheaper alternatives. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:31:11 -0500 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] formerly Paper Moon, now more Rosicrucian psychoba bble Please, if you're going to respond to messages like this, make sure to leave the original sender's email address attached to the quote so filters can identify it. ----- Original Message ----- From: dana-boy@juno.com To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:09 PM Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] formerly Paper Moon, now more Rosicrucian psychoba bble My allergy inhaler costs about 74 dollars for a 30 day supply (no generic on it, and it doesn't last 30 days like it says anyway) and my Paxil prescription ain't available in a generic either (without that I turn into Mr. Snuffleupagus...I think you've read my posts when I'm in Snuffie mode before). The 69 dollar med was for an antibiotic that I actually need, for an ear infection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the number of CDs that you seem to buy while sponging off your mom, I'm not sure I can get all that worked up over a one time charge of $69 for antibiotics. Geez, I thought you were talking about your heart medication or something. Re: allergy inhalers for $74. Email me off list and I can *probably* give you some cheaper alternatives. --dana ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:49:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries I wasn't able to find the original story, but does this have anything to do with it? http://www.ctnow.com/news/local/hc-fbiolds1107.artnov07.story Joe Mallon jmmallon@joescafe.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:00:12 -0800 From: "Michael Zwirn" Subject: [loud-fans] Sixpence None the Richer / Crowded House According to this article on CNN (the first time I've ever seen the Katydids referenced on CNN), Sixpence None the Richer do a cover of "Don't Dream It's Over" on their new album. Having liked some of the early Sixpence stuff (prior to "Kiss Me"), and liking the "Kiss Me" single itself, I'm wondering if this cover is any good. See: http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/11/07/sixpence.richer/index.html last played: Low, Trust last seen: Low at the Aladdin Theatre last night - ------ Michael Zwirn, Policy Analyst The Wild Salmon Center mzwirn@wildsalmoncenter.org http://wildsalmoncenter.org (t) 503-222-1804 (f) 503-222-1805 (c) 503-887-9800 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:00:43 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries In a message dated 11/7/02 9:03:39 AM, jsharple@brooklaw.edu writes: << > Last time I checked, the government owned the > computers in my local public library. No, you do! >> Please go to your local public library and try to walk out with one of my (or your) computers. While you're at it, try to convince the librarians that you're not a smug, condescending a-hole. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:38:58 -0500 From: John Sharples Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries > Please go to your local public library and try to walk out with one of my (or > your) computers. While you're at it, try to convince the librarians that > you're not a smug, condescending a-hole. Too late for that! Aw, lighten up Francis, I'm just having a little fun witcha. Besides, I actually thought your last post (distinguishing the librarian's actions from government action, making 4th amendment irrelevant) was one of your most articulate posts in a long time. And before that, I was gonna remark how you and I agreed on two topics in a row (A.C. and Afghanistan) until you went and spoiled it all by saying calling Condoleeza that naughty word! Freeda people, JS - ------------------------------- This mail sent through Brooklyn Law School WebMail http://www.brooklaw.edu/webmail - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:01:44 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries In a message dated 11/7/02 10:44:55 AM, jsharple@brooklaw.edu writes: << And before that, I was gonna remark how you and I agreed on two topics in a row (A.C. and Afghanistan) until you went and spoiled it all by saying calling Condoleeza that naughty word! >> That's right, John. It was me who called Condoleezza a naughty word. It wasn't anybody on the left. Keep staying as delusional as Terry McAuliff. And that new Sixpence None The Richer is deathly dull, but is certainly safe for anybody who doesn't want to own music by Christians. As part of their new marketing push, the band now gets offended if you dare suggest that they ever thought that Jesus was, like, the Son of God or anything crazy like that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:07:09 -0800 From: "Michael Zwirn" Subject: [loud-fans] 6p > And that new Sixpence None The Richer is deathly dull, but is certainly safe > for anybody who doesn't want to own music by Christians. As part of their new > marketing push, the band now gets offended if you dare suggest that they ever > thought that Jesus was, like, the Son of God or anything crazy like that. Well, sheesh, I got back last night from hearing Low sing "The Lamb". I'm scarcely likely to bother one way or the other, but if it's deathly dull than I'll consider myself forewarned. The Crowded House cover? n.p. Cornershop, When I Was Born for the 7th Time - ------ Michael Zwirn, michael@zwirn.com http://zwirn.com (t) 503-232-8919 (c) 503-887-9800 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:18:34 -0700 From: "Roger Winston" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries JRT456@aol.com on 11/7/2002 12:01:44 PM wrote: > And that new Sixpence None The Richer is deathly dull, but is certainly safe > for anybody who doesn't want to own music by Christians. As part of their new > marketing push, the band now gets offended if you dare suggest that they ever > thought that Jesus was, like, the Son of God or anything crazy like that. Maybe SNtR is just emulating Saint Peter in his moment of doubt? Don't worry, I'm sure they'll come back around eventually. Wouldn't want to risk Eternal Damnation now, would they? Slouching Towards Gethesmane, Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:07:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Tim Walters" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon > So here's a thought experiment from Alan Blinder (who, incidentally, > would almost assuredly been the head of the Council of Economic Advisors > if Gore were President): Would you rather have today's quality and > technology of health care at today's prices, or 1960's quality and > technology of health care at 1960 prices inflated by the CPI to today? > If you would prefer the former, then you actually believe that the real, > quality-adjusted price of health care has gone down. Here are some questions that immediately spring to mind: - --What metric is being used to compare quality? My intuitive impression is that current health care is better in some ways and worse in others than 1960 health care. - --The norm for technological advance is increased quality at reduced cost (computers being the obvious example). Why is health care different? - --How do our costs compare to those of other countries delivering a similar quality of care? My impression is that they're much worse, but I'm willing to be corrected. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:31:43 -0500 From: John Sharples Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries J.R., what gives with all the mystery and innuendo? Here's an idea: why don't you just *tell us* who on the left called Rice the n-word? Not that it would be relevant to anything we were talking about... The notion you seem to be selling here - and you've done it before, whenever we start bashing poor Clarence Thomas - is that the left is hypocritically contemptuous of conservative blacks. But I find three things wrong with your tack: The fact that the left appears quite comfortable attacking a prominent black leader whose policies they don't like would suggest that the leftist critics are focussing on issues, not race. Exactly the converse of what you seem to be alleging. *You* keep bringing up race, which seems inconsistent with the conservative line of 'race doesn't matter, so we don't need affirmative action' etc; It suggests that the conservatives put these African Americans in visible positions precisely to ward off criticism from the left, which sounds to me like tokenism (certainly Clarence Thomas was nowhere near the most qualified candidate in the country); Is this a case of 'a good offense is the best defense?' The Dems have historically been kind to blacks, the GOP not. Everybody knows that. And the GOP continues the trend today with, just to name a current example, these nightmare right wing extremist federal judge nominations the White House keeps cramming down the Senate's throats in an effort to keep their extremist constituency happy (see, that's the problem with so-called moderate Republicans, they gotta pay the piper somehow). So this whole 'house nigger' thing strikes me as a particularly convoluted smokescreen that tries just a bit desperately to pre-emptively cut off criticism from the left by praying on liberal guilt. But isn't it just gratuitously playing the race card? That's basically it, right? JS - ------------------------------- This mail sent through Brooklyn Law School WebMail http://www.brooklaw.edu/webmail - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:00:17 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 6p Michael: >The Crowded House cover? Heard at a listening post in a record shop, and thought, as with their La's cover, 'perfectly competent, but why bother'? Not much has been made of their Christianity one way or another in the UK - so what's the deal? Have they elected to play it down? Reneged? Converted? Thanks so much to all for the indie movie advice - I really appreciate it and have passed your comments on. You guys are *good*. peace & love phil NP - Dramarama, Box Office Bomb 'To think of Bond without music would require an impossible shrinking of the senses; the final guitar pluck of the Bond theme is one of the two great chords of the nineteen-sixties, the othervery similarbeing the first, hanging twang of "A Hard Day's Night," before the melody kicks in.' - from the most recent New Yorker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:47:16 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries At 05:31 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, John Sharples wrote: >So this whole 'house nigger' thing strikes me as a particularly convoluted >smokescreen that tries just a bit desperately to pre-emptively cut off >criticism from the left by praying on liberal guilt. But isn't it just >gratuitously playing the race card? What's particularly odd about this exchange is that the only person I've heard called a "house nigger" recently is Colin Powell (not Condi Rice), by that wild-eyed scourge of the establishment Harry Belafonte. Are you guys sure you're not dick-swinging over the wrong person? S ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:56:31 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries Quoting John Sharples : > Is this a case of 'a good offense is the best defense?' The Dems have > historically been kind to blacks, the GOP not. Everybody knows that. Just before anyone can jump on Sharples' back and beat him about the head with a figurine of Abraham Lincoln, of course the reverse was true in the 19th century or so. Not that it matters. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: crumple zones:::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::small-craft warning :: np: Amon Tobin _Out from Out Where_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:24:15 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries Stewart wrote: > What's particularly odd about this exchange is that the only person > I've heard called a "house nigger" recently is Colin Powell (not Condi > Rice), by that wild-eyed scourge of the establishment Harry Belafonte. > Are you guys sure you're not dick-swinging over the wrong person? Ah, you see, that's where my confusion set in! Spelling it '-er' makes us think it was for real, whereas if it had been spelt '-a' I'd have *known* it was jocular or even matey! Duh! * If Quentin Tarantino had used the latter spelling, do you think Spike Lee would have been a bit better disposed towards him? Or if Belafonte had said 'Uncle Tom' (or 'Aunt Thomasina' if it was Condoleeza Rice') could this whole row have been averted? ** OK, the phrase was meant to be a parody of the Bush administration's supposed attitude towards Rice/Powell/whoever - it was in inverted commas, if you like, and I don't think you could ascribe that very same racial prejudice to whoever said it, whether you agree with their attitude to the Republicans or not - but it does make me wonder whether the comment was at all useful in the first place. peace & love phil * just interesting to note - would NWA have got away with it had they been N***ers with Attitude? The word is still *that* emotive, Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs (and the end of the world as we know it) notwithstanding... ** 'Irony: an excuse for everything and a reason for nothing.' - Christgau re Jon Spencer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:18:42 -0800 (PST) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries - --- Stewart Mason wrote: > Are you guys > sure you're not dick-swinging over the wrong person? > > S There's a great joke in there somewhere, but I just can't nail it......... Gil U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:17:29 -0500 From: John Sharples Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries Quoting Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey : > Just before anyone can jump on Sharples' back and beat him about the head > with a > figurine of Abraham Lincoln, of course the reverse was true in the 19th > century or so. Yeah I thought we might just narrow the discussion to the age of electricity if that's okay with you, Mister History Channel. I think actually the real weakness in my premise is that despite good intentions, the left may have done a lot of harm to African Americans by constructing policies that created a welfare state. - --Dick S. Winger - ------------------------------- This mail sent through Brooklyn Law School WebMail http://www.brooklaw.edu/webmail - ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:39:37 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries On 7 Nov 2002, at 15:18, Gil Ray wrote: > --- Stewart Mason wrote: > > Are you guys > > sure you're not dick-swinging over the wrong person? > > > > S > There's a great joke in there somewhere, but I just > can't nail it......... > Gil > U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 I read that at speed, misconstrued 'nail', and thought you'd provided the punchline, albeit one I didn't *quite* get - phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:58:37 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries I'll be addressing two posts here, but I'll try to make this quick. Why do these conversations always happen when I'm trying to get ready to head out of town? In a message dated 11/7/02 2:37:06 PM, jsharple@brooklaw.edu writes: << J.R., what gives with all the mystery and innuendo? Here's an idea: why don't you just *tell us* who on the left called Rice the n-word? >> Mark Staples will be happy to show you how to use a search engine to find many references from the left to both Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice as house niggers. In fact, there's an interesting FCC case going on about it right now. << The fact that the left appears quite comfortable attacking a prominent black leader whose policies they don't like would suggest that the leftist critics are focussing on issues, not race. Exactly the converse of what you seem to be alleging. *You* keep bringing up race, which seems inconsistent with the conservative line of 'race doesn't matter, so we don't need affirmative action' etc; >> It's a stretch to suggest that complaining about the left's comfort in dismissing Rice and Powell as house slaves (or house niggers) is an excuse to bring up race. I'm bringing up the lack of a coherent message. Using Harry Belafonte's recent remarks as an example, he's focusing only on race, with a weird assumption that people who don't agree with him aren't true blacks. One of the reasons the Democrats are performing so badly is that they keep trying to make points with empty charges of racism. << Is this a case of 'a good offense is the best defense?' The Dems have historically been kind to blacks, the GOP not. >> Try looking into which party brought about the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Here's a clue: Al Gore lied about how his father voted. You can complain about right-wing federal nominees (or right-wingers in general) being inherently racist, but there's simply no basis in reality. Being opposed to affirmative action or the welfare state doesn't make anybody racist. Assume the worst about me, but my own concerns on those matters are based on how those policies are doing harm to Americans of all colors. << So this whole 'house nigger' thing strikes me as a particularly convoluted smokescreen that tries just a bit desperately to pre-emptively cut off criticism from the left by praying on liberal guilt. But isn't it just gratuitously playing the race card? That's basically it, right?>> You're probably better off asking the many black conservatives who are routinely referred to as "house niggers." They're allowed to complain about it, right? Personally, it doesn't bother me that much. I just think it's sad that some people believe all black people should think a certain way. In a message dated 11/7/02 2:48:32 PM, flamingo@theworld.com writes: << What's particularly odd about this exchange is that the only person I've heard called a "house nigger" recently is Colin Powell (not Condi Rice), by that wild-eyed scourge of the establishment Harry Belafonte. Are you guys sure you're not dick-swinging over the wrong person? >> Harry Belafonte originally referred to Colin Powell as a "house slave," and then went on television with Larry King to add that he also felt the same about Condoleezza Rice. Sorry to interfere with the homoerotic imagery. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:54:51 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries John wrote: > I think actually the real weakness in my premise is that despite good > intentions, the left may have done a lot of harm to African Americans > by constructing policies that created a welfare state. Depends. I don't personally think that the Afro-Carribean and Asian populations in a lot of Europe have been harmed at all by the creation of welfare state systems - but it seems to me that the US welfare system looks pretty haphazard by comparison and that it hasn't got to a point where it's been accommodated by, or has managed to coexist, albeit uneasily, with the capitalist ethic. (Oxymoron? Maybe only if the last word is pluralised...) Having said that, the last twenty years of the welfare state in the UK have hardly been anything to crow about, but IMHO that's mostly thanks to the Thatcher mob's wholehearted embrace of the Friedmanite approach which eventually became Reaganomics on your side of the pond (although it was a Labour government who started the slide by going to the IMF back in... sorry, wrong meeting.) peace & love phil (who, if he lived in the States, would be getting justifiably dirty looks every time he said smugly 'don't blame me - I voted for Nader') ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:01:06 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: [loud-fans] welfare state PS ...and before anybody else mentions it, I know Mr PC here couldn't even spell 'Caribbean' right tonight. Poh. phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:15:07 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Fleming Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries - --- Phil Gerrard wrote: > (who, if he lived in the States, would be getting > justifiably dirty > looks every time he said smugly 'don't blame me - I > voted for Nader') Actually, it would be more like "So did I...yeah! That's it!" Phil F. NP... Apples In Stereo "The Oasis" U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 01:16:58 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries OK, my last post on this tonight. Personally, I don't believe that racism splits left/right politically - I think the linear or even the supposedly more sophisticated circular model of the political spectrum are both ridiculously simplistic, and that somebody someday will have to construct a viable 3D model of political affiliation in order for anybody to identify a position correctly. But, as somebody who would have to identify himself as way out on the left under the current approach, I have to say that the quasi- libertarian idea that welfare, affirmative action etc are positively harmful and tokenistic is a kind of right-wing idealism which doesn't take into account the fact that privilege has been and will be (unless we do something about it) passed down from generation to generation regardless of personal merit - ie that inherited weatlh and power are barriers to any kind of equality. Government *is* imperfect, but less government, or zero govenment, is not a viable option in the face of history, and in fact is the easiest way to allow the crimes of the past to compound themselves. Look, Marx saw the Dictatorship of the Proletariat as a necessary step towards Communism, in which there was NO STATE - always remember that was in actual fact his dream. The libertarian ideal is actually the same, only they've been a bit more canny and haven't framed their argument in terms of a Dictatorship of the Multinationals as being the next step towards our ultimate liberation. Unfortunately, it seems to me that both models (and my own anarcho-syndicalist ideal) are based on a notion of human perfectibility to which I can't subscribe, 'cause there's just too much evidence to the contrary. Fuck it, we've not had a decent, coherent, new political philosophy in over 100 years, and it's about time somebody came up with one rather than just damning the poor sods in what's laughably called 'power' who just spend most of their time running around attempting to apply a severely rationed supply of Band-Aids where they're most needed. peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:40:22 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries At Friday 11/8/2002 01:16 AM +0000, Phil Gerrard wrote: >Fuck it, we've not had a decent, coherent, new political philosophy >in over 100 years, and it's about time somebody came up with one Thou Shall Render Unto Roger. Latre. --Roger Okay, are you guys sick of my one-liners yet? Cuz I've got a million of 'em. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:04:31 -0500 From: boyof100lists@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] Sixpence None The Richer And that new Sixpence None The Richer is deathly dull, but is certainly safe for anybody who doesn't want to own music by Christians. As part of their new marketing push, the band now gets offended if you dare suggest that they ever thought that Jesus was, like, the Son of God or anything crazy like that Are you being serious about this secular change of face? That's sad if you're serious. They were the first band to be a real break (along with Starflyer 59) from all the blah Christian music that came before. Their first album was pretty much my introduction to the genre 9 years ago. What's next, renouncing their faith like Dylan and going on the next Ozzfest tour? If people don't want to own music by Christians, they should get rid of their Sunny Day Real Estate and Pedro the Lion records. You gotta serve somebody, - -Mark S., Christian, allergy sufferer, mother sponger, filtered Loudfan ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 01:16:58 -0000 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries OK, my last post on this tonight. Personally, I don't believe that racism splits left/right politically - I think the linear or even the supposedly more sophisticated circular model of the political spectrum are both ridiculously simplistic, and that somebody someday will have to construct a viable 3D model of political affiliation in order for anybody to identify a position correctly. But, as somebody who would have to identify himself as way out on the left under the current approach, I have to say that the quasi- libertarian idea that welfare, affirmative action etc are positively harmful and tokenistic is a kind of right-wing idealism which doesn't take into account the fact that privilege has been and will be (unless we do something about it) passed down from generation to generation regardless of personal merit - ie that inherited weatlh and power are barriers to any kind of equality. Government *is* imperfect, but less government, or zero govenment, is not a viable option in the face of history, and in fact is the easiest way to allow the crimes of the past to compound themselves. Look, Marx saw the Dictatorship of the Proletariat as a necessary step towards Communism, in which there was NO STATE - always remember that was in actual fact his dream. The libertarian ideal is actually the same, only they've been a bit more canny and haven't framed their argument in terms of a Dictatorship of the Multinationals as being the next step towards our ultimate liberation. Unfortunately, it seems to me that both models (and my own anarcho-syndicalist ideal) are based on a notion of human perfectibility to which I can't subscribe, 'cause there's just too much evidence to the contrary. Fuck it, we've not had a decent, coherent, new political philosophy in over 100 years, and it's about time somebody came up with one rather than just damning the poor sods in what's laughably called 'power' who just spend most of their time running around attempting to apply a severely rationed supply of Band-Aids where they're most needed. peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:00:34 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Sixpence None The Richer At Thursday 11/7/2002 11:04 PM -0500, boyof100lists@juno.com wrote: >If people don't want to own music by Christians, they should get rid of >their Sunny Day Real Estate and Pedro the Lion records. Isn't *most* music made by Christians? Seeing as how something like 70% of the US population is supposedly Christian... So if I don't want to listen to music by Christians, do I have to throw out 70% of my CD collection? That's a lot of discs. Okay, maybe the statistic is less for people in bands, but it's still probably a majority. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:47:43 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries I like this list, I really do, but it's really harshing my buzz reading this patronizing bullshit and the rationalizations that will inevitably flow from it. -d. w. a. house d.j. ps: I know it's just a word. It doesn't make me feel any better when I have to read it slung about for rhetorical points by folks who can and will never know its true sting. ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #390 *******************************