From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #389 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, November 7 2002 Volume 02 : Number 389 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries [JRT456@ao] Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries [Matthew Weber ] Re: [loud-fans] You only get five [Roger Winston ] RE: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries ["Paul Seeman" ] Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon [Carolyn Dorsey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:12:29 EST From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries In a message dated 11/6/02 9:03:44 PM, mweber@library.berkeley.edu writes: << Yeah, probable cause is overrated anyway. There's really no point in getting sentimental over the Bill of Rights, is there? >> That would qualify as a point if we were talking about an issue of probable cause. However, the topic is librarians who don't like it when other librarians try to help the authorities find fanatics who are running around our country trying to kill people. Each librarian is welcome to choose his or her side. I'm just happy to see that the FBI isn't going to let that concern them with the bigger issue of law enforcement. Besides, this sounds more like a matter of property rights. Last time I checked, the government owned the computers in my local public library. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:35:52 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon At Wednesday 11/6/2002 09:27 PM -0500, boyof100lists@juno.com wrote: >-Mark S., who just paid 69 dollars (earth dollars) for a week's supply of >a generic medication (not counting the cost of my visit). That's fucked >up. How much longer can health care costs spiral out of control before >there's rioting in the streets? Ever met a Democratic doctor? Me >either. I'm not sure if the talented African-American surgeon who recently saved my father's life is a democrat or not, but I do know that he's not in it for the money. He laughs at that stereotype, and prefers the one about doctors wanting to help people. After nine years, he's still paying off his medical school debts and finds it very hard to support his family on what he ends up getting from the insurance companies. Somehow I don't think he'd be much better off if health care were under government control, but politics and economics always mystify me. I'll have to ask him about it when he operates on another member of my family next month. Anyway, thanks for putting it into perspective for me. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:43:00 -0800 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries At 12:12 AM -0500 11/7/02, JRT456@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/6/02 9:03:44 PM, mweber@library.berkeley.edu writes: > ><< Yeah, probable cause is overrated anyway. There's really no point in >getting sentimental over the Bill of Rights, is there? >> > >That would qualify as a point if we were talking about an issue of probable >cause. However, the topic is librarians who don't like it when other >librarians try to help the authorities find fanatics who are running around >our country trying to kill people. Each librarian is welcome to choose his or >her side. I'm just happy to see that the FBI isn't going to let that concern >them with the bigger issue of law enforcement. Besides, this sounds more like >a matter of property rights. Last time I checked, the government owned the >computers in my local public library. Isn't the right to privacy predicated on the 4th amendment? And isn't probable cause required for that right to be set aside? We're all in favor of giving up some of our rights in order to combat terrorism, apparently; but it seems to me that there is the potential for gross abuse of these expanded police powers. What happens when somebody decides to use the FBI to compile a list of political enemies and conduct surveillance on them? It's happened before, as you well know. Betty Dejean was right, at least at the time she wrote the memo. Ms. Hensman was in violation of Florida law, period. Circumstances being what they are, I'd be surprised if she were ever charged (and were I prosecutor, I wouldn't bother bringing charges), but she still broke the law. Matt Like a fine old English gentleman, All of the olden time. The Fine Old English Gentleman. Oxford Song Book. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:42:18 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon Quoting Roger Winston : > I'm not sure if the talented African-American surgeon who recently saved my > father's life is a democrat or not, but I do know that he's not in it for > the money. Well, that just proves he's Un-American. He should be forced to testify as to any suspicious objects he might have found while operating on any of his patients - how do we know that one of those patients just might possibly have been a terrorist? Ah hell - just lock everyone up who doesn't get a stiffy every time they see an American flag. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: I'm gonna need a hacksaw :: ps: It also proves he's neither Frank Zappa nor a member of the Mothers of Invention. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:51:17 -0700 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] You only get five A little late, but here you go: Naomi Watts Jennifer Connelly Madeleine Stowe (actually older than I am!) Eliza Dushku Halle Berry (with longer hair) Off the top of my head and a little random... Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:03:21 -0500 From: "Paul Seeman" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Fwd: OT -- Ignorance is Strength: Big Brother in Libraries Well, from what I've heard Hensman wasn't even censured, and Dejean's memo didn't bear directly on her decision to contact the police. As the Assistant Director of the Broward County Division of Libraries, Dejean has a certain responsibility to ensure that librarians follow Florida law, which prohibits librarians from volunteering patron records to the authorities without a court order. There's been a lot of debate about this in library circles, but from where I'm standing Hensman's decision to identify suspects to the police didn't violate her professional code. On the other hand, volunteering patron records would have been unprofessional (and illegal), and Dejean's reminder was intended to ensure that folks remembered where to draw the line. So we've got two professionals acting professionally and minding competing lines of jurisdiction...a lot of smoke, no fire. I'm as furious about the implications of USA-Patriot as any sane person, but remember the Library Assistance Plan. In the 50s, Red-hunting feds reached out to librarians in an effort to get their hands on patron records and were stymied at nearly every turn. For all we know, those tight-lipped folks in Hartford are just lying doggo after all the surveillance-equipped machines in the reference area mysteriously broke down and needed to be replaced. We're a crafty bunch that way. Paul Matt wrote: > Betty Dejean was right, at least at the time she wrote the memo. Ms. > Hensman was in violation of Florida law, period. Circumstances being > what they are, I'd be surprised if she were ever charged (and were I > prosecutor, I wouldn't bother bringing charges), but she still broke > the law. JRT wrote: > In a message dated 11/6/02 8:36:01 PM, janet@simplyliving.org writes: > > << Librarians? That's it. I'm outta here. And I'm not allowed to > comment on > that story, but folks who use libraries in the US had best have a peek at > sections 214-216 of the USA PATRIOT act if they're not yet so acquainted. > Here are some resources:...>> > > But there's good news for people who don't care about terrorists using > publicly-funded libraries to plot the deaths of innocents. Put your faith > in > Betty Dejean of Broward County, Florida. She's the dedicated library > director > who, in the wake of 9/11, sent out a memo reminding librarians not to give > out any information to the authorities without a court order. Dejean's big > concern? She didn't like how librarian Kathleen Hensman had contacted the > FBI > to inform them that three of the World Trade Center terrorists had used > the > computers in Hensman's library. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:20:19 -0500 From: "Vallor" Subject: [loud-fans] things Shannon and I met the lovely Valerie Chambers-Miller this weekend, she cried a lot but I have that effect on kids. I'm not much of a kid guy but she's very sweet. An old friend of mine, Alexandra Pelosi, had a documentary that she made shown on HBO last night...it was about the 2000 Bush campaign. I taped it and haven't seen it yet but it should be a pretty funny film. She was always kind of a riot. If you have HBO watch for a repeat. Be well- Dan Vallor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:51:03 -0500 From: Carolyn Dorsey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Paper Moon At Wednesday 11/6/2002 09:27 PM -0500, boyof100lists@juno.com wrote: > Ever met a Democratic doctor? Me >> either. My dad is a pediatrician and he works really hard. He's also a democrat. The problem isn't with many doctors overcharging for their services, it's mostly with the cost of maintaining the paperwork with insurance companies (who dictate to doctors what they will pay for various procedures) and the liability insurance doctors have to pay. I feel for doctors starting out in the less lucrative areas of medicine. The management of dealing with insurance companies is a whole business in itself. Carolyn ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #389 *******************************