From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #362 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, October 15 2002 Volume 02 : Number 362 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post [] [loud-fans] Ersatz PS [] Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey <] Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post [] [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post ["Keegstra, Russell" ] Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post [Stewart Mason ] [loud-fans] Re: The Whinging Pseuds [] Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffr] Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post ["moxie" ] Re: [loud-fans] more muddying of the waters [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds ["me" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 9:12:20 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post Stewart wrote: > They're more along the lines of the Clash's version > of "Jail Guitar Doors," I thought that was a Clash original? Maybe you were thinking of 'Police and Thieves' - - - but you're absolutely right in pointing out that there's no logic on Earth for regarding the Mekons' reggae as more 'ersatz' than their country songs. I mean, I've seen 'Got to Get You into My Life' described on more than one occasion as 'ersatz soul' by people who I doubt would ever describe 'You've Got to Hide Your Love Away' as 'ersatz Dylan' ('Dylan-influenced', maybe, but 'ersatz', no). 'Ersatz' seems to be critical shorthand for 'white people playing music of black origin and - snicker, snicker - not getting it quite right', ignoring (a) the possibility that the musicians in question might not have wanted to 'get it right' as such and (b) the fact that getting it 'wrong' was one of the foundations of rock & roll as we know it in the first place. It's an attitude which I think smacks of condescension all round, just a few steps away from referring to whites as being effete intellectuals and blacks as having a natural sense of rhythm, you know? peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 9:47:23 +0000 From: Subject: [loud-fans] Ersatz PS Hmm. Could have put that a bit more clearly. It just seems to me that certain critics assume that white musicians who play black-derived music are doing so because they in some way want to be black, hence 'ersatz'. I don't think this was even true of the early Stones (to pick the most obvious example) and it sure as hell isn't true of the Mekons. They are what they is, and I don't see any indication that they'd want it any other way. phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:35:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Michael Mitton wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > "Just play your guitar out in the cornfield and I'll tell people if you > > tap some primitive urge." --Scott Miller, paraphrasing the critical > > elitism that assumes critics possess intellect, while musicians possess > > only brute emotion. > > I guess this goes all the way back to Socrates. Isn't it in the Apology, > discussing his search for wisdom, that he criticizes the poets for not > having any understanding of their own craft? Except that such critics *want* the musicians to lack understanding of their craft: it gives them something to do. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"Shut up, you truculent lout, and let the cute little pixie sing!":: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:53:26 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post Jeff wrote: > Except that such critics *want* the musicians to lack > understanding of their craft: it gives them something > to do. Heavens, yes - isn't it interesting that popular musicians who discuss their craft without being wacky, self-deprecatory, or plain barking mad are almost certain to be labelled as 'pretentious' or 'pseudo-intellectual' by certain writers? I'm sure that a lot of critics and academics are secretly terrified by the idea that the people they're writing about might be smarter or more insightful than they are, and this hangup seems to apply particularly to rock writers. peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:49:56 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post Scenes from a running conversation: >>>It's fairly obvious that his grounds are simply "they're not, like, rastas >>>from Kingston, maaaaaaaaaan, so they can't play *real* reggae," an idea >>>that he considers so self-evident that he doesn't feel he has to explain >>>it. >>Yeah, that's what I thought too. >Ergo, their reggae is at least as real as their country. Wow, all this from one word. Imagine the heights of denigration you could aspire to if you read the whole thing. You could have hours of fun mocking his geographical sense, like one person briefly did on the message board, for stating that FNAL is in southern Illinois. ...and then later: >Except that such critics *want* the musicians to lack understanding of >their craft: it gives them something to do. Maybe he really isn't an intellectual racist, maybe he just decided he had to throw in an adjective. Aren't you guys pretty much doing the same thing to critics that you are accusing them of doing to musicians? Russ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:28:26 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] New release - Krautrocky! |-----Original Message----- |From: dana-boy@juno.com [mailto:dana-boy@juno.com] |Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:44 PM |To: loud-fans@smoe.org |Subject: Re:[loud-fans] New release - Krautrocky! | | |I try not to spend too much list time advertising the 125 |Records catalog, but I think the Econoghost CD we've just |released would find many happy homes on this list. If you |like Krautrock (Neu, Can, Kraftwerk) or Stereolab ca. '94-'96, |esp. MARS AUDIAC QUINTET, you'll very much enjoy ANNEU'ED. |It's great work music, too, and only $10. |>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | |A large part of me wants to stay silent on the subject, given |that there are some conflict-of-interest issues going on, but |I'd hate to see any poor innocents parted from their money due |to a misguided urge to support their friends. To be blunt |(based only on the sound samples that are posted, I should |note) the above album has the same relation to Krautrock that |"Fiesta Day" at my hospital's cafeteria has to Mexican food. |For the love of god, check the song samples before buying. |I'll say no more. | |--dana Hmm, well I've got no problem supporting friend's endeavors. Granted I likely would not have bought this CD if it weren't from a friend, but I must say I've really enjoyed listening to it and that it can't be passed off as some vanity project. I never was a fan of Krautrock so far be it for me to comment on it's worthiness of this genre, but I thought the sampled tracks were rather Kraurocky and actually far from my favorites from the album with their synth laden sound. Once you get to "Taffeta Punk" and Teutonic Plague" with the added distorted guitars you've got my attention. I found that the first three tracks just sort of quietly lulled me in, but it's the remainder of the album that kept my attention. Maybe a sample from one of these more guitar driven songs would be good Joe. - -Larry PS...and I loved Don Dixon's young daughter's artwork. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:38:21 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post Russ wrote: >Aren't you guys pretty much doing the same thing to >critics that you are accusing them of doing to musicians? The flip answer is 'yeah, and that's the fun of it', but to be fair I don't think any of us was necessarily seizing on the word 'ersatz' to attack this one particular guy. I think we were just letting off steam about a particular type of critic, and this one writer's casual use of that word was a springboard: we weren't, as far as I can tell, bashing him specifically, or wanting to generalise about rock critics en masse. phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:15:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 phil.gerrard@ntlworld.com wrote: > Heavens, yes - isn't it interesting that popular musicians who discuss > their craft without being wacky, self-deprecatory, or plain barking mad > are almost certain to be labelled as 'pretentious' or > 'pseudo-intellectual' by certain writers? I'm sure that a lot of critics > and academics are secretly terrified by the idea that the people they're > writing about might be smarter or more insightful than they are, and > this hangup seems to apply particularly to rock writers. Although I think this is truer the more mainstream the critic: otherwise how to explain the *critical* success of, oh say, Scott Miller? I think, too, beyond a certain level of fame, artists are "allowed" to be smart: Townshend, Lennon - maybe Reed (who's a lot less smart than he thinks he is if you ask me, but you didn't). - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::flag on the moon...how'd it get there?:: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:18:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post I forget who commented on the early Police as truly being "ersatz reggae" - - but isn't that a judgment of quality rather than genuineness? Where's the line between doing something poorly and not really doing it at all? Okay, if you're not even *trying* to "really" do reggae - but "ersatz" is almost always derogatory; the band that, say, messes around with "jazz" in a song's middle eight might be described as using a "fake jazz break," but no one's likely to think the band is *really* trying to play jazz. Me, I think if you're going to accuse a band of playing a style badly, say so - "ersatz" implies that some people somehow have a license to use a style, and other people can't use it. I don't think music works like that, really. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. ::That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! __Thomas Pynchon, VINELAND__ np: The Cure _Wild Mood Swings_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:27:11 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post Jeff wrote: > I think, too, beyond a certain level of fame, artists > are "allowed" to be smart: Townshend, Lennon - maybe > Reed (who's a lot less smart than he thinks he is if > you ask me, but you didn't). Lennon, of course, sometimes to the point where it became sycophantic, and I'm sure he wouldn't have been too charmed to find some of his more offhand public pronouncements being proffered around the net as Holy Writ. Townshend has had an easier time in the States than in the UK, I think, where he's routinely and IMHO unfairly derided as a whinging pseud (although he doesn't do himself any favours by writing letters to newspapers complaining about such slights). Reed... ahh, well, there are journalists who consider him smart, there are journalists who don't, and there are journalists who have a problem with the guy because he doesn't care much for journalists, which muddies the waters a little. peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:42:56 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post At 09:12 AM 10/15/2002 +0000, phil.gerrard@ntlworld.com wrote: >Stewart wrote: > >> They're more along the lines of the Clash's version >> of "Jail Guitar Doors," > >I thought that was a Clash original? Maybe you were thinking of 'Police and Thieves' Indeed I was. Thanks. S NP: VELOCITY OF SOUND -- Apples in Stereo (an album I seem to be pretty much alone in really liking a lot) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:48:08 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds > Townshend has had an easier time in the States than in the UK, I think, > where he's routinely and IMHO unfairly derided as a whinging pseud OK, I understand that 'whinging' is the UK equivalent of US 'whining', but I've never heard it pronounced. Does 'whinge' rhyme with 'hinge'? And while I'm on the subject of transatlantic linguistic variation, I'll take the opportunity to scold (or whinge about) Americans who use the phrase 'I've not' in email when they would never use it in speech, at least without sounding like a pretentious poseur. I've not finished with this topic. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:55:38 +0000 From: Subject: [loud-fans] Re: The Whinging Pseuds John writes: > OK, I understand that 'whinging' is the UK equivalent of > US 'whining', but I've never heard it pronounced. > Does 'whinge' rhyme with 'hinge'? Yep, that's it. For some reason I always think of it as more Australian English than UK English, mainly 'cause it's the word they tend to append to their epithet for us Brits, as in the phrase 'whinging poms' - phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:56:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > Wow, all this from one word. Imagine the heights of denigration you > could aspire to if you read the whole thing. You could have hours of > fun mocking his geographical sense, like one person briefly did on > the message board, for stating that FNAL is in southern Illinois. I did read the whole thing. And hey, if we're picking nits: the guy works for Reuters - you'd think he'd've remembered Wire from the class of '77. Aside from Phil's comments, with which I agree, I'll note that both Stewart and I work as critics - so of course we're going to be critical of other critics. (Take that as you will.) More to the point, Derek Caney (the author of the Mekons piece) is a writer. Writers use words. When they use words that are misleading or insidious, other writers notice (and many readers do, too). It never ceases to amaze me, the extent to which language is so debased in most usage that people can pass things off with "we didn't really mean that - it's just a word." "Ersatz" has meaning. If a writer uses it, it's fair to ask what the writer means by it - and what are the implications of that meaning. If there's phony reggae, there must be real reggae. What are the writer's criteria for determining which reggae is which? "Phony" and "real" aren't as obviously categories of opinion as, say, "bad" or "good" - so this isn't only a matter of taste. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"Shut up, you truculent lout, and let the cute little pixie sing!":: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:57:10 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post At 10:18 AM 10/15/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >I forget who commented on the early Police as truly being "ersatz reggae" >- but isn't that a judgment of quality rather than genuineness? Where's >the line between doing something poorly and not really doing it at all? I was the one who called the Police "ersatz reggae," and while there probably *is* a derogatory element to the term, I meant it more in the sense of "The Police were playing classic rock-style songs with reggae beats rather than, for lack of a more precise term, 'real' reggae." This is not necessarily a value judgment, as the Police's first three or four albums are the ones I actually like. S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:07:28 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post Jeffrey Norman: >...I'll note that both Stewart and I work as critics - so of course >we're going to be critical of other critics. >...Writers use words. When they use words that are misleading or >insidious, other writers notice (and many readers do, too). > >"Ersatz" has meaning. If a writer uses it, it's fair to ask what the >writer means by it - and what are the implications of that meaning. If >there's phony reggae, there must be real reggae. What are the writer's >criteria for determining which reggae is which? "Phony" and "real" aren't >as obviously categories of opinion as, say, "bad" or "good" - so this >isn't only a matter of taste. Stewart Mason: >I was the one who called the Police "ersatz reggae," and while there >probably *is* a derogatory element to the term, I meant it more in the >sense of "The Police were playing classic rock-style songs with reggae >beats rather than, for lack of a more precise term, 'real' reggae." This >is not necessarily a value judgment, as the Police's first three or four >albums are the ones I actually like. I don't think there is anything I can add here. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:37:08 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post While "ersatz" is certainly one of those lazy rock-crit words that need to be banned forever, the fact remains that the Mekons have never played anything but ersatz reggae...since, by definition, ersatz is a substitute, and in this case, a substitute for the Mekons' usual style. Their usual style is diverse, but it's not reggae. It helps to understand the meaning of the word. Otherwise, somebody would eventually be given a hard time for claiming that Jimmy Buffett plays ersatz reggae. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:44:51 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post > While "ersatz" is certainly one of those lazy rock-crit words that need to be > banned forever, the fact remains that the Mekons have never played anything > but ersatz reggae...since, by definition, ersatz is a substitute, and in this > case, a substitute for the Mekons' usual style.... It helps to understand the > meaning of the word. The writer didn't say they were playing ersatz Mekons. The term used was "ersatz reggae," i.e. "an (inferior) substitute for reggae." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:56:05 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post In a message dated 10/15/02 9:48:57 AM, john.cooper@pobox.com writes: << The writer didn't say they were playing ersatz Mekons. The term used was "ersatz reggae," i.e. "an (inferior) substitute for reggae." >> I certainly never claimed that the writer said anything about "ersatz Mekons." Considering the article's very pro-Mekon tone, though, it's a little absurd to say that the writer was referring to an inferior substitute. "Ersatz" can refer to an inferior substitute, but that's not the only definition. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:30:26 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual music related post In a message dated 10/15/02 11:43:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, flamingo@theworld.com writes: > NP: VELOCITY OF SOUND -- Apples in Stereo (an album I seem to be pretty > much alone in really liking a lot) > I really like it a great deal as well. I think it makes a nice bookend to the latest Imperial Teen album. Look! Flying pigs, and a moon turned to blood, - -Mark S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Tim Walters" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds > And while I'm on the subject of transatlantic linguistic variation, I'll > take the opportunity to scold (or whinge about) Americans who use the > phrase 'I've not' in email when they would never use it in speech, at > least without sounding like a pretentious poseur. I nominate the JDC for list moderator. He would meticulously scrub incoming messages, enforcing strict usage protocol and preventing Americans from using English expressions. It would slow down posting quite a bit, but when one considers the benefits to be gained by taming redundantly pretentious poseurs such as moi, it's surely worth the delay. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:10:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > I don't think there is anything I can add here. Uh, but, you uh...never mind. Re "ersatz reggae" as equivalent to "reggae substituting for usual Mekons style": I can't quite make sense of that reading, because at that point in the article, the author was describing the Mekons' style(s). To include as the second item or so an item as substituting for that usual style, when that style hadn't yet been defined, doesn't make sense to me. Also, although I suppose one could use "ersatz" to mean solely "substitute" (the notion of "non-genuine" being implicit), most writers wouldn't...precisely because its usual meaning is "inferior substitute." To deflate this little discussion to its proper proportions: I think the writer was gently tweaking the Mekons for being one of several bands to try on reggae clothing in that era. It's hardly a sweeping indictment, and so it's (to me) perfectly compatible with the generally praiseful tone of the article. What bugged me was simply that the phrase reminded me of all those "white men can't play the blues" arguments. You still read that sort of thing in classical music criticism - "Von Klusterficken's Teutonic heritage made him an ideal fit to conduct the orchestra's all-German program" - and it irks the hell out of me, as if musical characteristics are born in the blood. You can be a black man from Minneapolis and study klezmer music intensely and play it a hell of a lot better than some kid with a clarinet who's never heard it but happens to be Jewish. In other words, the whole discussion wasn't (for me) at all about the Mekons, or even primarily about the writer. It was about a certain kind of language usage that suggests a certain critical practice I was criticizing. - --Jeff, who also thinks the first three Police albums are the only tolerable ones, even though they're pretty dated sounding J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::playing around with the decentered self is all fun and games ::until somebody loses an I. np: He Said _Hail_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:21:13 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post > Re "ersatz reggae" Not really a comment about the whole "ersatz" thing [btw, Ersatz Audio is a great label :) ], but does anyone else remember the brief early-80's phenomenon of bands being influenced by the Police and doing songs that were receiving their reggae influence third-hand? (I'm thinking of two cases in particular: the band Novo Combo and Rush's Police pastiche, "New World Man") -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:36:52 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds John Cooper wrote: > And while I'm on the subject of transatlantic linguistic variation, I'll > take the opportunity to scold (or whinge about) Americans who use the phrase > 'I've not' in email when they would never use it in speech, at least without > sounding like a pretentious poseur. I've not finished with this topic. Perhaps you've not realized that "I've not" requires one less keystroke than "I haven't". I've only just realized that myself. I've also only just realized that in my favo(u)rite British phrase "only just", the "only" is entirely superfluous, but I can still say it without sounding like a pretentious poseur. Only just, though. - -Steve PS: I think "ersatz reggae" in context means "reggae by non rastas". Stuff that was all over the radio in the 1980-81: the Police, "Police and Thieves", "The Tide is High", "Brass in Pocket", "Hungry Heart", etc.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:44:26 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post In a message dated 10/15/02 11:10:55 AM, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: << Also, although I suppose one could use "ersatz" to mean solely "substitute" (the notion of "non-genuine" being implicit), most writers wouldn't...precisely because its usual meaning is "inferior substitute." >> I doubt many dictionaries lead with the definition of "ersatz" as an inferior substitute...although people who read too much rock criticism could easily end up thinking otherwise, since the word's certainly been overused in bad reviews of bad albums. Still, it doesn't seem harsh for a rock journalist (particulary if he's a Mekon fan who's also into reggae) to feel compelled to refer to the band's "ersatz reggae." I could also understand a dedicated blues fan referring to Chris Whitley as "ersatz blues." Different people have different standards. But I agree that, say, calling any Jewish MC an "ersatz rapper" is certainly grounds for a beatdown. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:54:13 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds >> And while I'm on the subject of transatlantic linguistic variation, I'll >> take the opportunity to scold (or whinge about) Americans who use the >> phrase 'I've not' in email when they would never use it in speech, at >> least without sounding like a pretentious poseur. > > I nominate the JDC for list moderator. I'll take it! For my first act, I will apply a simple Perl filter substituting the by-golly-American phrase "I haven't" for "I've not." Only the few UK/Commonwealth members of the list would notice. For my second act...no, no, must...contain... > He would meticulously scrub > incoming messages, enforcing strict usage protocol and preventing > Americans from using English expressions. It would slow down posting quite > a bit, but when one considers the benefits to be gained by taming > redundantly pretentious poseurs such as moi, it's surely worth the delay. Tim, I'm sorry I led you to believe I think you are a pretentious poseur, when you--and several other users of this Britishism--are well known to me as good writers and thoughtful posters. All I really know is that it's impossible for me to scan the words "I've not" without the writer's voice instantly becoming that of a BBC newsreader, distracting me from the content of the message. If you are truly cheesed off, I may throw myself under a lorry. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:08:29 -0400 From: "moxie" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post JRT: > I doubt many dictionaries lead with the definition of "ersatz" as an inferior > substitute...although people who read too much rock criticism could easily > end up thinking otherwise, since the word's certainly been overused in bad > reviews of bad albums. I'm surrounded by dictionaries. Without getting up: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=ersatz&r=67 Getting up: Oxford English Dictionary (supplement, 1961): Ersatz - 1. a substitute or imitation (usually, an inferior article instead of the real thing). Also attrib. or adj. Webster's New World College Dictionary (4th ed., 1999): Ersatz - n., adj., substitute or synthetic, the word usually suggests inferior quality. There are about twenty other English dictionaries here if anyone needs them. Question authority - ask a librarian. Dammit. janet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:08:47 -0400 From: "moxie" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post JRT: > I doubt many dictionaries lead with the definition of "ersatz" as an inferior > substitute...although people who read too much rock criticism could easily > end up thinking otherwise, since the word's certainly been overused in bad > reviews of bad albums. I'm surrounded by dictionaries. Without getting up: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=ersatz&r=67 Getting up: Oxford English Dictionary (supplement, 1961): Ersatz - 1. a substitute or imitation (usually, an inferior article instead of the real thing). Also attrib. or adj. Webster's New World College Dictionary (4th ed., 1999): Ersatz - n., adj., substitute or synthetic, the word usually suggests inferior quality. There are about twenty other English dictionaries here if anyone needs them. Question authority - ask a librarian. Dammit. janet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:04:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Dave Walker wrote: > (I'm thinking of two cases in particular: the band > Novo Combo and Rush's Police pastiche, > "New World Man") I don't remember Novo Combo - but the most obvious example is, of course, Men at Work with "Down Under." - --Jeff, whose dictionary at work (Webster's New Collegiate, 1981) lists "being a usu. artificial and inferior substitute" as its first definition for "ersatz" J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::The dog-eared pages, the highlighted passages, the margin ::notations...this book has actually been read: it can't be a student's! __Jose Chung__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:14:20 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post In a message dated 10/15/02 11:57:54 AM, janet@simplyliving.org writes: << Question authority - ask a librarian. Dammit. >> Going over to the shelf with the 8-tracks, I find Webster's Dictionary of the English Language: "ersatz: 1. serving as a substitute, esp. something synthetic.--n. 2. a substitute, esp. of inferior quality." There's a Merriam-Webster's upstairs, though. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:28:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Charity Stafford Subject: Re: [loud-fans] an actual criticism related post Janet: > Oxford English Dictionary (supplement, 1961): Ersatz - 1. a > substitute or imitation (usually, an inferior article instead of the > real thing). Also attrib. or adj. Out of curiosity, I read through the quotations in the OED. The first few use "ersatz" in the literal sense simply of "substitute," but by 1927 the usage specifically implies "inferior substitute" and all quotations from that date onwards use the word to mean "inferior substitute" or "imitation." I suppose it could be argued that the OED selected its quotations to skew the meaning of the word in that direction, but it does seem as though the job was done about 75 years ago. Charity ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:44:01 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] more muddying of the waters i thought the police were more "ska" than "reggae" anyway. "ersatz reggae" == "ska" ? but i've never (yet) heard anyone call the mekons a ska band. so i don't know where that leaves us. i also went dictionary browsing. i agree with janet; in common usage "ersatz" implies inferiority. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:56:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] more muddying of the waters On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, dmw wrote: > i thought the police were more "ska" than "reggae" anyway. > > "ersatz reggae" == "ska" ? > > but i've never (yet) heard anyone call the mekons a ska band. so i don't > know where that leaves us. Sad to say, I never went much further in attempting to define "ska" than "reggae twice as fast." That def. seems to work pretty well w/the second-wave bands from which I first heard the term: The Specials, The Selecter, and the (English) Beat (whose range was always broader). The effect is that that distinctive guitar accent, rather than being on the downbeats as in classic reggae (w/almost nothing on one and the kick drum on three), is on the *offbeats*. And it seems to describe the tracks on the one comp of original Jamaican ska I have as well. So I don't think the Police would count as ska. What's interesting about the "reggae" thing is that they had a reggae sort of feel, but really they twisted the typical reggae beats around (I think I posted on this a few months back). I sort of get waht Stewart means by the songs being "classic rock-song style" - although I'm not really sure what a reggae song structure would be. They seem to work with a rather limited chord set, and off the top of my head I get the idea that middle eights were rarer than in most rock at the time, but I could be completely all wet on that, not being anywhere near a reggae expert. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:56:08 -0400 From: Carolyn Dorsey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds on 10/15/02 2:36 PM, Steve Holtebeck at smholt@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > PS: I think "ersatz reggae" in context means "reggae by non rastas". > Stuff that was all over the radio in the 1980-81: the Police, "Police > and Thieves", "The Tide is High", "Brass in Pocket", "Hungry Heart", > etc.. Would What's Love Got to Do With it fall into this category? I heard a piped in version of it at the Shoprite and thought it had a reggaeish beat. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:08:25 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds Since this may never come close to coming up again, can anyone tell me what a "Mere Pseud Mag Editor" is? Then if I just find out what "Sang Phat Editor" means, and what an I.P.C. Subeditor does, I'll be all done with my Editors. - --dana, gunning for the cryptic post prize ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:27:10 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds At 08:08 PM 10/15/2002 GMT, dana-boy@juno.com wrote: >Since this may never come close to coming up again, can anyone tell >me what a "Mere Pseud Mag Editor" is? Then if I just find out what >"Sang Phat Editor" means, and what an I.P.C. Subeditor does, I'll be >all done with my Editors. Mere you already know, and a mag. ed. is just what it sounds like. A "Pseud," according to my always-at-hand Concise Partridge (a reference we have three copies of in this house), is "a phoney; an affected, esp. if so-called 'intellectual,' poseur and 'make-believer.'" It's public school slang dating back to the mid-60s, popularized by the satirical magazine Private Eye, and basically it's someone who spouts the current "right on" ideas without really knowing what they mean. Hint: IPC owned both Melody Maker and New Musical Express. S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:29:22 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > Since this may never come close to coming up again, can anyone tell me > what a "Mere Pseud Mag Editor" is? Then if I just find out what "Sang or just a definition of "pseud" would clarify matters. pseudo? pseudo what? o! hey, Brianna! www.psue-psue-studios.com (i'm sorry. i'm really sorry. i'll go away now.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:29:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > Since this may never come close to coming up again, can anyone tell me > what a "Mere Pseud Mag Editor" is? Then if I just find out what "Sang > Phat Editor" means, and what an I.P.C. Subeditor does, I'll be all done > with my Editors. Well, if "pseud" is Britslang for something like "poseur" (as I'm gathering), then the Fall title is MES-speak for "pretentious journalist git," I suppose. (Uh-oh - the JDC will catch this post for non-Brit using Brit slang.) I couldn't tell you what/who a "Sang Phat Editor" is (mebbe Sang Phat is a Vietnamese rapper?), so the U.S. Maple thing's still open. An I.P.C. subeditor, obviously, edits whatever I.P.C.s the I.P.C. editor missed. I mean, duh! Eddie edit, Eddie Eddie edit. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::part of your circuit of incompetence:: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:32:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Carolyn Dorsey wrote: > on 10/15/02 2:36 PM, Steve Holtebeck at smholt@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > PS: I think "ersatz reggae" in context means "reggae by non rastas". > > Stuff that was all over the radio in the 1980-81: the Police, "Police > > and Thieves", "The Tide is High", "Brass in Pocket", "Hungry Heart", > > etc.. > > Would What's Love Got to Do With it fall into this category? I heard a > piped in version of it at the Shoprite and thought it had a reggaeish beat. Yeah, I think so - that beat was all over the early '80s (although I don't think "Hungry Heart" fits in). Hell, it even spread as far as non-new wave ersatz jazzers (ha! but the phrase is good for using three Zs in a short space) like Steely Dan ("Haitian Divorce") and Frank Zappa ("Sy Borg" and a few others). There's yr mix CD theme: "Ersatz Reggae of the Early '80s." Oh - and that herky-jerky beat early XTC used was pretty ska-influenced, I'd say. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::The more you drive, the less intelligent you are:: __Miller, in REPO MAN__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:39:59 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds >Eddie edit, Eddie Eddie edit. Apparently that ELP immersion had many lasting effects. I feel your pain. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:45:28 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds now THAT"S a studio name! and i'll stand up and be counted as a genuine Pseud. assuming that means poseur. i LIKE to play parts. i ENJOY putting on hats. and airs. so there. jabberwock galleries... bandersnatch studios... - -- It's well known that if you take a lot of random noise, you can find chance patterns in it, and the Net makes it easier to collect random noise. Dr. James M. Robins, Professor of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at Harvard - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: "dmw" To: "digipak haters unanonymized" Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Whinging Pseuds > On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > > > Since this may never come close to coming up again, can anyone tell me > > what a "Mere Pseud Mag Editor" is? Then if I just find out what "Sang > > or just a definition of "pseud" would clarify matters. pseudo? pseudo > what? > > o! > > hey, Brianna! > > www.psue-psue-studios.com > > (i'm sorry. i'm really sorry. i'll go away now.) ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #362 *******************************