From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #353 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, October 8 2002 Volume 02 : Number 353 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] left behind at 56K (and strangely not caring) [JRT456@aol] Re: [loud-fans] left behind at 56K (and strangely not caring) ["CJ" ] Re: [loud-fans] pluck out his eyes! [Dave Walker ] Re: [loud-fans] pluck out his eyes! [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] Synths [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] Potentially offensive to Led Zep fans [Miles Goosens ] Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] Synths [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: [loud-fans] TV stuff: catching up [John F Butland ] [loud-fans] Music sought ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] Music sought [Stewart Mason ] [loud-fans] Stones SACD reissues [steve ] Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Music sought ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] [loud-fans] Eric's started his solo - let's nip off to the pub for a few pints [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > Wow. Did this list have an archive where you could go to provide, say, three URL's where this guy ever complained about nerds on this list who weren't, in fact, ganging up on another nerd in a sad show of superiority? Probably not. Incidentally, Mark Staples, that post I just responded to was actually sent by a guy who once accused you of "starting to dominate the list with your drama again." In truth, of course, that same little drama queen guarantees that you're always going to be #2 on this list. Keep trying harder. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:53:59 -0500 From: "CJ" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] left behind at 56K (and strangely not caring) > jsharple@brooklaw.edu: > > << Here, here! It's almost as absurd as the one about the dorky moron that > joined > a self-described nerdy mailing list and did almost nothing but post about how > nerdy the list was. No really, he did this for years and years, I shit you > not. >> > > JRT@aol.com: > Wow. Did this list have an archive where you could go to provide, say, three > URL's where this guy ever complained about nerds on this list who weren't, in > fact, ganging up on another nerd in a sad show of superiority? Probably not. > > Incidentally, Mark Staples, that post I just responded to was actually sent > by a guy who once accused you of "starting to dominate the list with your > drama again." In truth, of course, that same little drama queen guarantees > that you're always going to be #2 on this list. Keep trying harder. And here I was, thinking that the reason why JR enjoys Mark's company on the list so much was that Mark gets *Stewart* all in a huff... huh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:18:08 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) >I still have trouble >with the notion that '80s sounds are to be dismissed out of hand, while >things that sound very much 1965 or 1973 aren't met with similar >disdain. I think it's just that the twenty-year fashion cycle hasn't kicked in quite yet. Or maybe it has--there's an 80s nostalgia station in SF, THAT 80'S SHOW, etc. Probably it won't be long before snare drums are louder than lead vocals again, and indie-rock productions are awash in reverb. glenn and I have both been doing technopop lately. That's got to mean something. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:22:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] pluck out his eyes! On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > I don't think sounding "better" was the problem--rather, it was the increased > difficulty of programming, combined with the presets you mention. A DX-7 can > sound as damaged as Allen Ravenstine, but it takes some knowledge of synthesis > to make it happen, and lots of people were content just to use the sounds that > came free with the machine. On early synths, it was a lot easier to get good > stuff by happy accident, and you didn't really have any choice because they > didn't come with presets. Also, eighties synths tended to have menus instead of > lots of knobs, which greatly reduced players' capability to vary the sound in > real time. As someone who's actually worked with synths, you are, of course, in a better position to call that than I am. Of course, I'm the kind of guy who would think it would probably sound cool to take a multi-thousand dollar synth and run it through an overdriven $30 Radio Shack cassette player, so... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::To be the center of the universe, don't orbit things:: __Scott Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Synths I think Tim hit the nail on the head. Once synths became cheap and easy to use, i.e. w/ many presets, "synthesis" was no longer necessary, and smacked of progginess, i.e. Emerson wankery (what Sue calls "oooeeee oooooeee"), and was thus to be avoided. Nowadays, most keyboards come with so many presets, there's little reason to muck about if you're 90% of users. There's a similar arc to PC use - computers are no longer just for programmers, and programming is not interesting to most users. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:32:10 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] pluck out his eyes! On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 05:22 PM, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > Of course, I'm the kind of guy who would think it would probably sound > cool to take a multi-thousand dollar synth and run it through an > overdriven $30 Radio Shack cassette player, so... Don't tell anyone, but you've just discovered the secret behind the early Aphex Twin records. Seriously. -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:31:33 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] pluck out his eyes! >Of course, I'm the kind of guy who would think it would probably sound >cool to take a multi-thousand dollar synth and run it through an >overdriven $30 Radio Shack cassette player, so... That's the early Nineties. Another possible explanation for Eighties synth-pop decline is the rise of MIDI, another technology that, while it can be used for good, has great potential for abuse. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:35:44 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Synths >(what Sue calls "oooeeee >oooooeee") Am I right in hearing four notes of the "Lucky Man" solo here? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:36:38 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Potentially offensive to Led Zep fans At 04:16 PM 10/4/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >In brief, to sum up, and to conclude: it rocks. > >So there. It rocks just as much when played by Wilco with their guitar tech, JP, singing. I can't vouch for this configuration's version of "Psycho Killer," "Ziggy Stardust," or "Come Together," as I wasn't lucky enough to get all the covers that night three (!!!) years ago. Maybe at the Ryman on the 29th... later, Miles who also has fond memories of the Royal Crescent Mob's cover/send-up of "Immigrant Song" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:40:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Synths On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > >(what Sue calls "oooeeee > >oooooeee") > > Am I right in hearing four notes of the "Lucky Man" solo here? Precisely. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:42:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > >I still have trouble > >with the notion that '80s sounds are to be dismissed out of hand, while > >things that sound very much 1965 or 1973 aren't met with similar > >disdain. > > I think it's just that the twenty-year fashion cycle hasn't kicked in quite yet. > Or maybe it has--there's an 80s nostalgia station in SF, THAT 80'S SHOW, etc. > Probably it won't be long before snare drums are louder than lead vocals again, > and indie-rock productions are awash in reverb. But that shiny fake reverb, not the sixties sort of room 'verb. > glenn and I have both been doing technopop lately. That's got to mean > something. And as I thought we discussed here recently, there are raft of '80s-influenced bands out there nowadays. I think part of it is the trend cycle - but not *all* seventies sounds became cool later, nor did all sixties sounds. I think early eighties techno-pop synths have been cool for several years now, for instance. I'm trying to think of which sixties sounds or styles have never been or become cool again - but I can't. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Once he forgot what city he was in and saw an honor guard of four ::men marching toward him on the sidewalk, going from their guard duty ::to their barracks, and they carried rifles with fixed bayonets and ::wore embroidered tunics, pleated skirts and pompom slippers and he ::knew he wasn't in Milwaukee. --Don DeLillo, _Mao II_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:51:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] EC New Elvis Costello reissues due 11-19: _Armed Forces_, _Imperial Bedroom_, _Mighty Like a Rose_, per rollingstone.com. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Once he forgot what city he was in and saw an honor guard of four ::men marching toward him on the sidewalk, going from their guard duty ::to their barracks, and they carried rifles with fixed bayonets and ::wore embroidered tunics, pleated skirts and pompom slippers and he ::knew he wasn't in Milwaukee. --Don DeLillo, _Mao II_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:00:38 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) >I'm >trying to think of which sixties sounds or styles have never been or >become cool again - but I can't. I haven't heard a long guitar solo flying around between the speakers for quite a while. But then, I don't own any Elephant 6 records. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:03:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Synths On Mon, 7 Oct 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > >(what Sue calls "oooeeee > >oooooeee") > > Am I right in hearing four notes of the "Lucky Man" solo here? In my aborted project to compile Punk Covers of Prog Rock Songs (there are, uh, two, maybe?), at one point I decided that I should just record 'em myself in appropriate style. Except I lack instruments, recording equipment, and (what's that third thing?) uh, talent. "Lucky Man" was going to be done a la Ramones, and for the little synth solo in the end, I had the bass guitar quoting "My Sharona"'s lick... (yes I know that's not a Ramones track - so sue me.) (FWIW, early Husker Du was going to do "Close to the Edge," in a radically restructured manner, and I expanded the parameters to vaguely "new wave" to have some synth-pop version of "Return of the Giant Hogweed." Actual musicians with nothing better to do with their equipment than borrow someone else's lame ideas are free to run with these...I got as far w/the Yes tune as figuring out which parts of the original would end up in the two-minute final version, and changing everything into a rapid-fire 4/4...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 18:28:25 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) >While I understand the complaints about '80s sounds more than I used to, >mostly thanks to Loud-Fan explications of said complaints (particularly the >"everyone uses same factory synth settings" thing), I still have trouble >with the notion that '80s sounds are to be dismissed out of hand, while >things that sound very much 1965 or 1973 aren't met with similar disdain. >It's almost as though folks think the era shouldn't have sounded like >itself, and I find this way of thinking troubling. I see what you mean, but I hated these sounds THEN. It's not like I just retroactively decided that 80s production sounds bad. I'm sure there are people who don't like wah wah pedals or other 60s innovations as much as I dislike the things I mentioned earlier. I have no problem at all with something sounding "of its time;" I just have my personal taste. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 19:59:54 -0300 From: John F Butland Subject: Re: [loud-fans] TV stuff: catching up At 10:41 AM 02-10-07 -0500, Miles Goosens wrote: >And to your Tina Fey addendum -- mmmm-hmmm (see her at the Emmys?), but to >me, the only bright spot of most of the '90s episodes was at the end of the >show: not only was the "cast waves from stage" finale the welcome signal >that another Lorne Death March show was at an end, but it meant seeing >Molly Shannon dressed in black and/or shiny dresses slit up to Hudson Bay, >flashing that big smile and gyrating and waving like there was no tomorrow. > Just when you think that you're the only one.... best, jfb John F Butland O- butland@nbnet.nb.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:03:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: [loud-fans] pavement reissue Did everyone else know about this? Two-disc reissue of Pavement's first album with like 1.5 discs of bonus tracks. They've added two Peel sessions, the Watery Domestic EP, a whole concert, the relevant b-sides and five or six songs I don't recognize. Coming out in two weeks. And here I was just about to conclude that I'd lost my copy of S&E and would have to rebuy it... But then, as I do every time some pleasing reissue is announced, I checked to see if the Slow Children albums were on CD, and they still aren't. a ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:12:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Music sought I'm looking for an album called GARDEN SHED by a band called England, and an album called SPRING by a band names Spring. Does anyone have either, on either CD or LP? Please contact me off-list. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:59:32 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music sought At 05:12 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: >I'm looking for an album called GARDEN SHED by a band called England, and >an album called SPRING by a band names Spring. Does anyone have either, >on either CD or LP? Please contact me off-list. Which band called Spring? The one with Brian Wilson's wife and her sister or one of the other ones? S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:05:42 -0500 From: steve Subject: [loud-fans] Stones SACD reissues Here's what The Absolute Sound thought - http://www.avguide.com/film_music/music/artists/rolling_stones.jsp Tim may be correct in thinking that DVD-A will eventually win out in the marketplace, but SACD has always gotten great reviews and seems to be picking up a bit of momentum with record labels. I'm tempted by the TAS recommended Sony SCD-CE775, which lists for $250.00. http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/generic/homeaudio/ compactdiscplayers/index.shtml - - Steve __________ Bushlexia - A combination of dyslexia, attention deficit disorder, apraxia, illiteracy, ignorance, laziness, passive-aggressiveness, inappropriate humor, and an arrogant attitude of privilege. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 22:20:38 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] 80s drums (fwd) At 04:42 PM 10/7/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >And as I thought we discussed here recently, there are raft of >'80s-influenced bands out there nowadays. The first '80s revival band I knew was the Rondelles, who when I first met them were three 16-year-olds who had no first-hand knowledge of new wave, but had picked it up willy-nilly from old records. >I think part of it is the trend cycle - but not *all* seventies sounds >became cool later, nor did all sixties sounds. I think early eighties >techno-pop synths have been cool for several years now, for instance. I'm >trying to think of which sixties sounds or styles have never been or >become cool again - but I can't. Around the time that BONNIE AND CLYDE came out, there was a miniature revival of '20s-style music: Nancy Sinatra's SUGAR is entirely in this style, and Harpers Bizarre's ANYTHING GOES is mostly in the same groove. And of course we can't forget the related fashion in the UK that spawned the Temperance Seven, the New Vaudeville Band ("Winchester Cathedral") and of course my beloved Bonzo Dog Band. Anyway, that hasn't really come back. At 03:00 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >>I'm >>trying to think of which sixties sounds or styles have never been or >>become cool again - but I can't. > >I haven't heard a long guitar solo flying around between the speakers for quite >a while. > >But then, I don't own any Elephant 6 records. I think you're thinking of the Bevis Frond. The E6 bands take their psychedelia in the Lewis Carroll-gets-dosed vein. S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:31:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Music sought On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Stewart Mason wrote: > At 05:12 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: > >I'm looking for an album called GARDEN SHED by a band called England, and > >an album called SPRING by a band names Spring. Does anyone have either, > >on either CD or LP? Please contact me off-list. > > Which band called Spring? The one with Brian Wilson's wife and her sister > or one of the other ones? The proggy one, which I've found. Still hoping on GARDEN SHED. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:50:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] Eric's started his solo - let's nip off to the pub for a few pints On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Stewart Mason wrote: > >I haven't heard a long guitar solo flying around between the speakers for > quite > >a while. > > > >But then, I don't own any Elephant 6 records. > > I think you're thinking of the Bevis Frond. The E6 bands take their > psychedelia in the Lewis Carroll-gets-dosed vein. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any blistering, lengthy guitar solo (much less one that wanders across the stereo image) on any of the E6 records I own. Am I forgetting any? - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I play the guitar. Sometimes I play the fool:: __John Lennon__ np: La Lengua Asesina _Hotel Opera_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 00:44:34 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] let's bash mark, chapter 583. In a message dated 10/7/02 1:21:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dmw@radix.net writes: > and anyone who is tired of a certain party's reputed self-absorption I, to this day, cannot figure out why so many on list are so reluctant to talk about things from a personal standpoint. I'm not asking to know about your kitty's loose stools, I am interested in how things affect you on a personal level. Did that new Apples in Stereo CD make your day? How did you enjoy your last concert? Does your job suck? I am used to this type of fare from the Coupland list(s) where people talk about how the weather makes them feel, their hatred of mayonnaise, Hawksley Workman reissues, and how to scrape the funds to buy them...that sort of thing. This list's mores have always been a challenge to me, but honestly, I don't know if it is just that I am not a left brain dominant male, or in my 40s, or an agnostic, or a computerhead, or that I'm not hip to the current multimedia zeitgeist or what, but the Mark bashing is SO two years ago. As far as my intelligence level, I made a near perfect score on my national teacher's exams, so I'm smarter than the average bear, K? And as far as Scott's music goes, I was listening to his music on my turntable years before a lot of you had even the slightest clue. I'm here, and I'm stayin'. If anything, you need me here for balance. To rip off Belle and Sebastian, I'm the cheese to your dill pickle. XXXOOO (you too, Malona...I mean Stewart) - -Mark S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 00:50:53 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] apology and taking own advice In a message dated 10/7/02 2:08:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dmw@radix.net writes: > an apology to mark. > > Thankyou, but it's not necessary. I'm getting a bit tougher, so I won't go put on Moz and cry anymore on me piller. - -Mark S. "There's plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes." (from a local restaurant's billboard, which I shot a bird at out my car window today, and I'm not even a vegetarian) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:34:11 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] All kids love Blog! It has been brought to my attention that I should do one of these. Turn me on, Loudfan. - -Mark S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 23:29:46 -0700 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: [loud-fans] Review: Linda Thompson, Friday Oct. 4, 2002 You must understand that in my musical pantheon, Richard and Linda Thompson occupy the uppermost echelon, alongside Tori Amos, R.E.M., Big Star, Daniel Lanois and Scott Miller (Game Theory/Loud Family). Now, in terms of frames of personal reference, only Big Star and Richard and Linda Thompson completed the whole of their body of work prior to my awareness of their existence. Big Star broke up before I was born, and Richard and Linda broke up when I was 9 years old. Richard has continued a prolific and extensive solo career, but Linda retreated to a life at home with a new family in England, beset by a combination of hysterical anxiety and stage fright that left her unable to sing in public or a studio. For those reasons alone, I would scarcely have imagined after all these years that on Friday night, I would be sitting in the front row of the Aladdin Theater in Portland as Linda Thompson stepped on stage, picked up a guitar and sat down to sing her first song in front of an American audience in more than fifteen years. The likelihood of ever hearing "Dimming of the Day" performed live would have seemed vanishingly meager, but there she was, as plain as day, backed up by her son and collaborator Teddy Thompson, daughter Kamilla and an able folk-rock band. Linda is in the midst of what can only be deemed a full-bore comeback after 17 years since One Clear Moment, her first and only solo record. Fashionably Late, her drolly titled disc, was just released on Ryko/Hannibal (the label she and Richard once recorded for), with her son writing and performing on most of the songs and Richard even stepping in amicably. It's a fine, fulfilling Celtic-influenced folk-rock album, although I can't honestly say that much in it matches the caliber of the Richard and Linda albums, or for that matter One Clear Moment itself. But seeing her on her first show in the United States was a remarkable experience, and to everyone's relief she seemed fully up to the task. Richard and Linda, and Teddy and Kamilla, bear the unmistakable hallmarks of good genes and musical dedication. I found Teddy's solo album pleasing in small doses, but tediously single-tempoed. As an opening act, he wore out his welcome with a few too many mid-tempo ballads. But as a guitarist and harmonizer accompanying his mother (who praised him as both a talented and cheap opening act), he is really very appealing. Kami, who is extremely cute, played some more acoustic guitar and also sang prettily, although her one solo turn was probably a poor song selection for her voice. Linda herself will have to be added to Emmylou Harris on my list of undeniably lovely musicians in their 50s. She's aged with a great deal of grace and apparent good humor. To my mind, and probably to those of the audience in general, the percentage of songs from Fashionably Late was too high, and the percentage from the Richard and Linda years too low. But I can't genuinely blame her for promoting her own solo work. At least she placed some of the most beloved songs from the back catalogue in the setlist, including "Dimming of the Day," "I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight," "Two Lonely Hearts," and her own "Telling Me Lies," (from One Clear Moment), which Emmylou, Dolly Parton and Linda Ronstadt later made a hit on the country charts. (Best anecdote of the night: Linda was retelling the story of meeting Dolly Parton, who told her that she was a great songwriter. As Linda tells the story, she arcs her hands in the air in front of her chest in imitation of Dolly Parton's breasts, and says, "I could have happily died then and there. Even I'd fancy Dolly Parton!" Kamilla blushes and covers her face in embarassment.) I would have appreciated more Richard and Linda material, of course, but also some of the other selections from her superb 1999 compilation Dreams Fly Away "I Live Not Where I Love," "One Clear Moment," "A Heart Needs a Home," or "Shay Fan Yan Lay." But with the thoroughly unexpected chance to see Linda Thompson in concert, I'm not complaining. - -------------------------------------- Michael J. Zwirn http://zwirn.com michael@zwirn.com Home: 503/232-8919 Cell: 503/887-9800 ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #353 *******************************