From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #312 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, September 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 312 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report ["SL Jarzabek" ] [loud-fans] spoon [dana-boy@juno.com] Re: [loud-fans] spoon [Jon Tveite ] Re: [loud-fans] spoon [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot ["glenn mcdonald" ] Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] spoon [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] Road Trip Suggestions [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershooters Report [Michael Mitton ] Re: [loud-fans] mixerman [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] [loud-fans] No histrionics or vitriol, I promise ["Chris Murtland" ] Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report [Steve Holtebeck ] Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report [Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com] Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Mope Rock [was Bumbershoot report] [Tim_Walters@digidesig] Re: [loud-fans] Road Trip Suggestions [Michael Bowen ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 02:31:35 -0700 From: "SL Jarzabek" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report - -----Original Message----- >From: owner-loud-fans@smoe.org [mailto:owner-loud-fans@smoe.org] On Behalf Of michael@zwirn.com >Would have liked to see but didn't: Beachwood Sparks, Death Cab, more Buddy and Julie Miller, Kevn Kinney... Kevn Kinney kicked some major serious butt!!! Best show I saw @Bumbershoot this year... Setlist: Broken Hearts Comin Down This Way Dirty Angels Time This Train Dont Stop Wrapped in Sky No Blues Back Roads Rainy Days Lights On (Lenny Song) Underground Umbrella Yet that's me where Indien All typed as listed on the setlist. Your faithful correspondent, Simone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 06:58:27 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] mooning Michael Jackson In a message dated 9/3/02 1:37:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rwinston@tde.com writes: > Is the import different from the domestic version? > > I don't know. I had been waiting for it to come out domestically ('cause I'm cheap/common...yet if it were Belle and Sebastian I'd swim over and get it with money from sold plasma, so I guess it is how much I like Pulp...Cocker can at times be brilliant, like on "Common People," and mooning Jackson, or that duet with Miki from Lush, and then be so boring at other times, so I'm divided), and I know it has been out for quite some time in the UK, but I wanted some feedback before I made the 16 dollar plunge for the US version (though compulsiveness will probably make me buy it anyway). Help the aged, - -Mark S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:14:45 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] dvd ot okay, so i found myself wondering yesterday if any season of _gilmore girls_ was available on dvd (or, heck vhs), determined fairly rapidly that the answer was no, and then tried to figure out if there was a scheduled release. ye gods! i'm pretty good with a search engine, but i couldn't come up with anything comparable to _ice_ for cds, by which i mean: fairly comprehensive and not full of pop-ads and pernicious cookies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:18:18 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] spoon It was kind of rainy around here last weekend, so during the times when I wasn't at the movies (avoid I'm Going Home at all costs -- the critics lie), reading, or pumping water out of my basement, I spent a lot of time in my new favorite coffee shop listening to the new Spoon album. I notice that around the middle of August, someone asked about it. Unless my escribe search missed something, nobody ever got around to answering the question. So, if I may, the answer is, it's really, really great. I've kind of liked Spoon's previous stuff without getting overly excited, but IMHO Kill the Moonlight is a major step up, and that's mainly due to some utterly killer production. Like 'em or not (and I like 'em), there's no denying that the CD is a joy to listen to, with all kinds of weird panning, nifty rhythm tracks, and other delights. I strongly advise anyone who buys this to listen on headphones at least once. I'm mentally cataloging it in the same space where I keep the Archers of Loaf's "Vee Vee." The two bands don't sound much alike, but they're both muscular rock bands with an arty edge and a hoarse lead singer. But where AoL started out great and then got less and less interesting, Spoon seem to be improving as they go along, which is very heartening. Like AoL, the songwriting rarely nails a hook, but the sound and playing on Kill the Moonlight are so great that that's a forgivable flaw. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:33:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Tveite Subject: Re: [loud-fans] spoon On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > So, if I may, the answer is, it's really, really great. I've kind of > liked Spoon's previous stuff without getting overly excited, but IMHO > Kill the Moonlight is a major step up, and that's mainly due to some > utterly killer production. It's growing on me. On first listen, I was a little concerned, because the musical ideas were quite a bit simpler than on previous records. The new one deemphasizes guitar and vocals, I thought, which have always been my favorite things about Spoon albums. I will have to give it a try through the headphones, though. > I'm mentally cataloging it in the same space where I keep the Archers > of Loaf's "Vee Vee." The two bands don't sound much alike, but > they're both muscular rock bands with an arty edge and a hoarse lead > singer. That's an interesting comparison. I think Spoon tends to be quite a bit more hook-oriented than the Archers, but I can see what you mean. I'm curious to see how the new songs play live. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:33:41 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] spoon On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > I'm mentally cataloging it in the same space where I keep the Archers of > Loaf's "Vee Vee." The two bands don't sound much alike, but they're > both muscular rock bands with an arty edge and a hoarse lead singer. > But where AoL started out great and then got less and less interesting, > Spoon seem to be improving as they go along, which is very heartening. > Like AoL, the songwriting rarely nails a hook, but the sound and playing > on Kill the Moonlight are so great that that's a forgivable flaw. i'll air an alternate view that nonetheless endorses the new one: i thought spoon's debut (and the accompanying ep "all the negatives have been destroyed") was a wonderful unlikely meld of the (late 70's) fall and j. richman; angular and abrasive and hooky all in one hard-to-wrap package (my impressions of the album may have been abetted by the truly killer live show that introduced me to the band; i didn't buy any beer after i realized how good they were and scrounged a couple bucks from friends so i could get the cd at the merch table). i thought the succeeding releases were, much to their detriment, smoother and more "ordinary" -- the new one doesn't scratch quite the same itch as the first album, but it has a welcome dose of more sonic weirdness than "girls can tell" or whatever, which i thought was a real snoozer. i should maybe note that i've never run into anyone else who likes that first album quite as much as i do. - -- d., waiting for the caffeine to kill the headache ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:39:10 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot The best source for DVD info I've found so far is http://www.digitalbits.com/, but it's totally unsystematic, so you have to just read the updates every couple days. ICE should really step up and do this themselves. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:33:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, dmw wrote: > okay, so i found myself wondering yesterday if any season of _gilmore > girls_ was available on dvd (or, heck vhs), determined fairly rapidly that > the answer was no, and then tried to figure out if there was a scheduled > release. ye gods! i'm pretty good with a search engine, but i couldn't > come up with anything comparable to _ice_ for cds, by which i mean: fairly > comprehensive and not full of pop-ads and pernicious cookies. Dunno - but the first season is being rebroadcast, I think on Sunday nights at 7 (eastern). So as a stopgap you could tape it. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::[clever or pithy quote]:: __[source of quote]__ np: Firewater _Psychopharmacology_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:38:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] spoon On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, dmw wrote: > i should maybe note that i've never run into anyone else who likes that > first album quite as much as i do. Perhaps not, but your general assessment of each album matches mine more closely than any opinion I've heard elsewhere. I was starting to wonder if my failure to worship them meant I liked the first two records for the "wrong" reasons and that was that. And speaking of sonic tomfoolery, I just heard a chunk of 69 Love Songs in my friend's new car and realized (1) how much I had soured on Stephin Merritt's lyrical "I'm the new Cole Porter" thing in the past year or two (2) how little I'd actually listened to 69LS in that time and (3) how good it *sounded* as a record, especially compared to the Future Bible Heroes. So that was weird. I still feel like, as much as I liked the first few Magnetic Fields records, I'm going to have about enough Stephin Merritt in my life without making much effort from now on. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:45:50 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot At Tuesday 9/3/2002 10:39 AM -0400, glenn mcdonald wrote: >The best source for DVD info I've found so far is http://www.digitalbits.com/, >but it's totally unsystematic, so you have to just read the updates every >couple days. ICE should really step up and do this themselves. As glenn, says, The Digital Bits is a good resource. Also, dvdfile.com. Or do a search for the title at hometheaterforum.com. I didn't turn up anything, but I'll bet Gilmore Girls will be announced sooner rather than later. TV shows on DVD seem to be a real growth market, based on an article I read in the paper the other day. I'd say the fact that things like Baretta and Once & Again have been announced bodes well for almost any TV show coming out on DVD. Also, as soon as it is announced, the online retailers like dvdempire.com will start listing it. Amazon.com will even notify you via e-mail when it is scheduled. Just do a search on "Gilmore Girls" in the DVD section and put your e-mail address in the appropriate box. Of course they will then probably send you scads of other stuff also, but if you've ever ordered from them before, they do that anyway. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:48:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Road Trip Suggestions The condensed version of Stewart's very thorough Guide to Good Roadside Diners might well simply note this: a place which looks as if it's been there for quite a while, and which hasn't had to pretend to be trendy, and which is still popular, is most likely a good restaurant. Restaurants that cater primarily to tourists, because that population is constantly changing, are more likely to focus their appeal on whatever's currently trendy (this is a corollary of the "local people eat there" criterion someone mentioned). The really condensed version might just say: Old, well-maintained, popular is good. Oh, and yeah, what *is* it that somehow Monroe, Dean, and Bogart are so overused (and sometimes Elvis)? I mean, okay, they've all become iconic - but there are other iconic entertainers from roughly the same era who are still popular - but not at that level. (This is where I make my semi-annual rant about hunting down and killing whoever vandalized _Night-Hawks at the Diner_ by absurdly putting Bogie et al. in it - worse yet if it has tacky real neon attached. Feh.) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous...got me? __Captain Beefheart__ np: Joe Henry _Trampoline_. Some interesting "six degrees" things here: married to Madonna's sister; Madonna ex-wife to Sean Penn, who's brother to Michael, who's married to Aimee Mann, who's ex- to...a long list of musicians. See now, if Scott *had* really used to go out with supermodels, he might be here Aimee is today... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:12:56 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] spoon Apologies in advance if this message comes in HTML or God-Only-Knows what goofy format, I am using Microsoft Outlook on someone else's machine, and I can't seem to convince it to send my messages in nice simple text format. On Tuesday, September 03, Jon Tveite wrote: > On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > > So, if I may, the answer is, it's really, really great. I've kind of > > liked Spoon's previous stuff without getting overly excited, but IMHO > > Kill the Moonlight is a major step up, and that's mainly due to some > > utterly killer production. > > It's growing on me. On first listen, I was a little concerned, because > the musical ideas were quite a bit simpler than on previous records. The > new one deemphasizes guitar and vocals, I thought, which have always been > my favorite things about Spoon albums. I will have to give it a try > through the headphones, though. After completely failing to find _Moonlight_ in any store in Tucson, I have found it while here in Houston for a week and I have only listened to it once in the car. I must agree with Jon, my first reaction was some minor disappointment - I liked the guitars and rhythmic games they played on _Sneaks_, and I really liked the material from _Girls_, but those two albums always seemed to me to come from two different bands. _Moonlight_ seems to come from yet a third band on initial reaction, and we'll have to see if I like this band as much as the other two. It's kinda minimal for my tastes, but it seems like a grower. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:13:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershooters Report On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 Overall_Julianne@isus.emc.com wrote: > * Sonic Youth - Big sound, big crowd. Not really my thing anymore, > but the show was okay. In hindsight, I'd probably would have enjoyed > Beachwood Sparks more For the record, I thought Sonic Youth Rawked. I've never seen them before because the typical report from people who see them live, even from people who are fans, is that their shows degenerate into chaotic sound that has people running for the exits. Maybe that is typical--I don't know--but at the Bumbershoot they were very tight for the whole set. Even when they were doing the noise thing, I still heard structure in what they were doing. Well, except when Kim ran off stage, presumably to go to the bathroom, and everyone else had to kill some time. What also surprised me was how much they went back to old songs. I haven't picked up any of their albums since WASHING MACHINE, but I knew much of the set. They dutifully played the hits (Candle, Kool Thing, etc) which was nice. - --Michael np Sonic Youth GOO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:41:52 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: [loud-fans] Aimeeing Lips After a few listens I can report that I don't really know what I make of the new Aimee Mann album yet. There are several patently pleasant songs, but I can't shake the impression that she just isn't trying very hard. If you could somehow process the album so that her voice prodouced the same pitches but wasn't recognizable as Aimee Mann, and then handed out copies in plain wrappers, would anybody think this is remarkable music? I don't mean that to sound rhetorical. It also vexes me that Aimee is *still* getting sympathetic press about her "plight". If for every ten articles about Aimee there were just *one* about how badly the Comsat Angels got screwed over during their time (and after all, Aimee still *has* a music career), I'd be much happier. In unrelated news, I had somehow missed the news that the first four Replacements albums were being reissued, and so was pleasantly surprised to come across them in the new-release rack today. Remastered, but no bonus anything. Still. Newbury comics had 'em on sale for 8.99 each (and the EP for 5.99), which was nearly paid for when, standing in front of the Flaming Lips bin wondering if I should give their new record a chance despite having always found them insufferable before, I realized from the song titles that it was actually the insufferable record that had been playing in the store the whole time I'd been there. Silly me, I'd guessed it was Spoon. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:52:54 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] mixerman >Didn't Tim W say in an earlier thread that he knows who Mixerman really >is? That would imply the story is true... I have credible but unverified information about who it is. But I also said: >>I've read enough of this guy's stuff to know not to take everything he says at >>face value.... I'm reserving judgment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:06:11 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: [loud-fans] No histrionics or vitriol, I promise Hadn't heard about the Replacements reissues - what label? I thought the master tapes were at the bottom of the Mississippi next to Alex Chilton's body or something. Of course, I already have them all on cd. Finding "Sorry Ma.." on cd was wonderful. You just can't go wrong with things like "I Hate Music" and "Shutup." Although I can do without some of Bob's metalish solos. I must confess that Paul's recent solo show did little for me. Of course, that was partly due to the fact that it was 142 degrees (Fahrenheit) and there were 2000 people too many in the Cat's Cradle. I am curious to hear why you think the Lips are insufferable... Have we already gone over the Beck/Flaming Lips tour, during which the Lips will open and then back Beck? I can't pay attention. I kind of like some of Beck's records and wouldn't mind seeing what he's like live n all. glenn mcdonald wrote: > In unrelated news, I had somehow missed the news that the first four > Replacements albums were being reissued, and so was pleasantly surprised to > come across them in the new-release rack today. Remastered, but no bonus > anything. Still. Newbury comics had 'em on sale for 8.99 each (and the EP for > 5.99), which was nearly paid for when, standing in front of the Flaming Lips > bin wondering if I should give their new record a chance despite having always > found them insufferable before, I realized from the song titles that it was > actually the insufferable record that had been playing in the store the whole > time I'd been there. Silly me, I'd guessed it was Spoon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:32:05 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershooters Report Michael Mitton wrote: > > For the record, I thought Sonic Youth Rawked. I've never seen them before > because the typical report from people who see them live, even from people > who are fans, is that their shows degenerate into chaotic sound that has > people running for the exits. Maybe that is typical--I don't know--but at > the Bumbershoot they were very tight for the whole set. Even when they > were doing the noise thing, I still heard structure in what they were > doing. Well, except when Kim ran off stage, presumably to go to the > bathroom, and everyone else had to kill some time. > > What also surprised me was how much they went back to old songs. I > haven't picked up any of their albums since WASHING MACHINE, but I knew > much of the set. They dutifully played the hits (Candle, Kool Thing, etc) > which was nice. Interesting. I think that whenever you go see SY, you can count on just not knowing what is in store. When I saw them at Bumbershoot they were very noise oriented, there really weren't many vocals going on, a lot of people just stood dumbfounded or fidgeting, presumably waiting for the "hits," which they didn't get. The noise thing for that show was quite hypnotic, though, and at the close of the last song, I was rooted in place, enchanted. Enchanted, and something else I can't quite put words to. They were hitting tones that somehow resonated in my body, or something, and the effect on my brain was one of cleansing, de-stressing, and something that felt like healing. I know that sounds really corny, but that's how it felt. The next time I saw them was as an opening band (for Pearl Jam, I think) in a big amphitheatre, and they did a tight set of very recognizable songs, with emaphasis on newer material, but also played "Kool Thing," and some of the more popular stuff. So, seeing them is a bit of an adventure, but has been a good one for me both times out. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 18:31:03 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] another new release (ns) ...and there are lots lately. One of the more retiring and shy loud-fans tipped me to the new chickfactor compilation CD, which might interest some people here. It's got a bunch of songs, many unreleased or alternate versions, by the usual chickfactor gang. Magnetic Fields fans without turntables might want to get it for the previously-vinyl single "I Don't Believe You." There's also a nice Would-Be-Goods track and...well, you know: a bunch of whimpy anglophile strummy folk rock made by people in post-grad literature programs. No supercrush lists, unfortunately. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:44:45 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Aimeeing Lips It's sad that "Lost In Space" has turned out to be really dull, but I'm even more depressed at how Mann's male equivalent is sounding. This new one from Duncan Sheik is really lame. If he can't manage a fluke hit off this one, then he's off to Rykodisc for sure. Or is it Artemis nowadays? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:41:30 -0500 From: Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report So why is it that everyone complains when an album has too many slow/mid-tempo songs, but almost no one does when it is, say a punk album with no songs that have BPM under 140? For me, the issue is song quality and where that fails, enough productions touches to distinguish between songs... I mean, one acoustic guitar or chamberlain can go a long way.... Of course, when Amiee Mann uses that damn chamberlain on almost every song on the new album, it has the opposite effect.. The only example to your query that I can think of is the Minutemen "covering" the Steely Dan song "Doctor Wu".... Wes Jeff Sez: Not sure what the deal is here - but what is it with these folks in their late thirties/early forties (raises hand) who seem incapable anymore of writing the occasional quicker song? Even one can marvelously liven up an album (although a few more might be needed at a show - so that's why God invented the cover song). On a (very) tangentially related note, I've decided that what the world really needs is for a bunch of punk bands to have done covers of progressive rock tunes. On the off-chance that this has, in fact, already occurred, if you're aware of any send me the titles. Hell, share 'em with the list. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, trying to imagine the early Husker Du's 44-second version of "Dark Star"...(okay, not really prog - but you get the idea) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:43:58 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report >On a (very) tangentially related note, I've decided that what the world >really needs is for a bunch of punk bands to have done covers of >progressive rock tunes. On the off-chance that this has, in fact, already >occurred, if you're aware of any send me the titles. Hell, share 'em with >the list. How about the Dickies doing "Nights In White Satin?" _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:28:23 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report > Even one [fast song] can marvelously liven up an album [of slower songs] This is a massively underrated point. I've lost count of the number of times I've sat down to examine an album I've been experiencing as basically bouncy and upbeat, and discovered that when you isolate the individual songs, there are really ten slow ones and two quick ones (or ten smooth and two rough, or some similar proportion of similar constrasts), yet the album as a whole feels suffused with the energy. Patty Griffin's new album is, for me, a perfect example of the converse, a slow record *without* the two or three moments of fervor, and it just dies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:31:44 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report Chris Murtland wrote: > Hadn't heard about the Replacements reissues - what label? > I thought the master tapes were at the bottom of the Mississippi > next to Alex Chilton's body or something. They're on Restless. I think the story about the Replacements dumping their Twin Tone masters into the Mississippi River is an urban legend, just like the one about Brian Wilson destroying the master tapes to SMILE. I suspect the 'Mats were just having fun at the expense of some interviewer, and the story went from there. Jeff asks: > On a (very) tangentially related note, I've decided that what the > world really needs is for a bunch of punk bands to have done > covers of progressive rock tunes. On the off-chance that this has, > in fact, already occurred, if you're aware of any send me the > titles. Hell, share 'em with the list. I have a tape of a 1984 Replacements show where they cover "Roundabout", which sounds, predictably, just like a car crash, but Bob Stinson absolutely nails Steve Howe's guitar part nearly note-for-note, and Tommy does a credible imitation of Chris Squire's busy bass as well. It sounds like the Stinsons must've spent a fair part of their formative years not only listening to Yes songs, but slavishly attempting to copy them. In and around Greg Lake, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:39:00 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: [loud-fans] Mope Rock [was Bumbershoot report] At 03:41 PM 9/3/2002 -0500, Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com wrote: >So why is it that everyone complains when an album has too many >slow/mid-tempo songs, but almost no one does when it is, say a punk album >with no songs that have BPM under 140? Because the punk album is over in 20-30 minutes, and the stuck-in-midtempoland album seems longer than SHOAH (and usually does clock in at 50-70 minutes). Today's "mope rockers," as Melissa has dubbed them, usually cite Nick Drake as an inspiration. Nick Drake's most famous album, PINK MOON, *is* dominated by midtempo numbers. What all these folks seem to have forgotten is that PINK MOON clocks in at under 30 minutes, and thus doesn't wear out its welcome. >For me, the issue is song quality >and where that fails, enough productions touches to distinguish between >songs... I mean, one acoustic guitar or chamberlain can go a long way.... This has come up before in an on-list discussion about these same issues, when Jeffrey actually took your side of this debate -- how the differences in instrumentation and instrument voice can be something he enjoys and that hooks him. But for me, those touches aren't enough to counterbalance the Consecutive Dirge #112 factor, which for me overwhelms even the song quality issue. For example, Billy Bragg's DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME doesn't have a bad song among its sixteen tracks, and in fact contains some of his very best work, but judged as an *album,* the hour's worth of thirteen loping-or-less tracks start to fade into each other, and the three peppier songs aren't enough to keep me awake to take in the tempo-challenged hour. Yeah, the individual *songs* are fine, so song quality isn't an issue, but I'll never rate this one as highly as BREWING UP WITH... or WORKERS PLAYTIME, even if DTTAH's individual tracks might grade out to a higher average.* later, Miles *and no, I've never assigned grades to individual tracks. There are some geek/pedant barriers even I have yet to surmount. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:50:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, glenn mcdonald wrote: > > Even one [fast song] can marvelously liven up an album [of slower songs] > > This is a massively underrated point. I've lost count of the number of times > I've sat down to examine an album I've been experiencing as basically bouncy > and upbeat, and discovered that when you isolate the individual songs, there > are really ten slow ones and two quick ones (or ten smooth and two rough, or > some similar proportion of similar constrasts), yet the album as a whole > feels suffused with the energy. Patty Griffin's new album is, for me, a > perfect example of the converse, a slow record *without* the two or three > moments of fervor, and it just dies. cue everything I've ever said or written about _Reveal_. (It needs two - it has one. Bradley (and others) will disagree, but...) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::[clever or pithy quote]:: __[source of quote]__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:54:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Steve Holtebeck wrote: > Jeff asks: > > On a (very) tangentially related note, I've decided that what the > > world really needs is for a bunch of punk bands to have done > > covers of progressive rock tunes. > I have a tape of a 1984 Replacements show where they cover "Roundabout", > which sounds, predictably, just like a car crash, but Bob Stinson > absolutely nails Steve Howe's guitar part nearly note-for-note, and > Tommy does a credible imitation of Chris Squire's busy bass as well. It > sounds like the Stinsons must've spent a fair part of their formative > years not only listening to Yes songs, but slavishly attempting to copy > them. That doesn't surprise me in the least - Bob Stinson was clearly a mainstream rock guy (he died the mainstream rock death to prove it, sadly), and except for the real punkers who only learned to play five minutes before their first gig, anyone who learned to play in the '70s at some point assayed "Roundabout." Actually, what oughta happen is for someone to cover "Roundabout" and pretend it's "Pump It Up" - I can just hear that rhythm riff re-played on Steve Nieve's little organ. (Uh, perhaps I should rephrase...) Or Pink Floyd's "Money" over the riff from Devo's "Jocko Homo"... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:59:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com wrote: > So why is it that everyone complains when an album has too many > slow/mid-tempo songs, but almost no one does when it is, say a punk album > with no songs that have BPM under 140? Because people who buy punk albums that are solely 140+ *know* that's what they're buying - and nobody else buys 'em. Either that, or they're too exhausted to complain. For me, the issue is song quality > and where that fails, enough productions touches to distinguish between > songs... I mean, one acoustic guitar or chamberlain can go a long way.... > Of course, when Amiee Mann uses that damn chamberlain on almost every song > on the new album, it has the opposite effect.. Oh, I agree - and while the album hasn't risen in its strengths yet, it also doesn't bore me. And I suppose a test case for your "song quality...and production touches" might be Low and their ilk (I'd add "emotional resonance" to your list): clearly, no one's going to shout out (as in that Nick Lowe track) "play that fast one one more time!" at their gigs. (Actually, I think you're required to wear fluffy slippers at Low gigs, move slowly, and generally comport yourself as if you're hunting wabbits.) > The only example to your query that I can think of is the Minutemen > "covering" the Steely Dan song "Doctor Wu".... Works if we call the Dan "progressive" - iffy, but I see your point. There probably aren't too many - diametrically opposed aesthetics (although, as I mention, often more notionally than really. And where'd all those math rockers learn to play songs in 7/4 anyway?) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Once he forgot what city he was in and saw an honor guard of four ::men marching toward him on the sidewalk, going from their guard duty ::to their barracks, and they carried rifles with fixed bayonets and ::wore embroidered tunics, pleated skirts and pompom slippers and he ::knew he wasn't in Milwaukee. --Don DeLillo, _Mao II_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:01:49 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report At 03:41 PM 9/3/2002 -0500, Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com wrote: >So why is it that everyone complains when an album has too many >slow/mid-tempo songs, but almost no one does when it is, say a punk album >with no songs that have BPM under 140? Personally, I don't mind an album of all slow songs so much. I don't complain if an American Analog Set, Low, Codeine or Bedhead record doesn't have any peppy uptempo finger-snappers any more than I complain that a Ramones record has no sensitive piano ballads: that ain't the point. An all-midtempo record, though, can often just sound kind of enervated, like some of the songs *could* be faster but the band just couldn't be arsed to speed it up a touch. However, as you said, samey arrangements are often at least as much to blame as tempos. I have an early solo record by Martyn Bates (the Eyeless In Gaza singer) where he doesn't even bother to change the settings on the synthesizer in between songs! S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:09:29 -0500 From: Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report I don't disaggree with anything anyone is saying, really... I just think it is weird that I have never heard the comment (well, from anyone whose comments re: music I take seriously) "That CD has way too many fast songs!".... Not sure about Miles comment re: the length of slow song albums vs. fast song albums... I think there is some validity to that, but I can listen to those 2-Fer's of the first 2 or second 2 (Take your pick) Ramones albums which clock in at an hour or more and not get any ear fatigue... Maybe they are just that good.... And Jeff, you are wrong about Reveal! Although, if they would have put "Lotus" on Reveal instead of UP... hmmmm, I might never have to listen to UP again... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:15:51 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Bumbershoot report At 05:09 PM 9/3/2002 -0500, Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com wrote: >Not sure about Miles comment re: the length of slow song albums vs. fast >song albums... I think there is some validity to that, but I can listen to >those 2-Fer's of the first 2 or second 2 (Take your pick) Ramones albums >which clock in at an hour or more and not get any ear fatigue... Maybe they >are just that good.... Probably, but I've always thought that there's much less ear fatigue when you're listening to an album of short, fast songs. It may just be that there's so much variety simply in there being a lot of different short fast songs, but I've noticed that fast music tends to raise the ol' heart rate even if I'm not doing much while I'm listening -- Muzak is based on this principle, in fact -- so I'm more alert than I might be if i were playing something equally long but more lugubrious. S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:21:40 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mope Rock [was Bumbershoot report] >Nick Drake's most famous album, PINK MOON, *is* >dominated by midtempo numbers. I don't have it handy to check, but my mental ear is telling me that there's a variety of tempos, including at least some ("Pink Moon", "Know", "Parasite") that are well over 120. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:26:36 -0400 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Road Trip Suggestions At 11:48 AM 9/3/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote (referring to the Hopper painting): >_Night-Hawks at the Diner_ The actual title of the painting, as I found out to my chagrin, is merely "Night Hawks" (not sure about the hyphen). I lost $2000 on _Jeopardy!_ calling it what you did. Tom Waits, you owe me. MB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:39:20 -0300 From: John F Butland Subject: Re: [loud-fans] dvd ot At 10:14 AM 02-09-03 -0400, dmw wrote: >okay, so i found myself wondering yesterday if any season of _gilmore >girls_ was available on dvd (or, heck vhs), determined fairly rapidly that >the answer was no, and then tried to figure out if there was a scheduled >release. ye gods! i'm pretty good with a search engine, but i couldn't >come up with anything comparable to _ice_ for cds, by which i mean: fairly >comprehensive and not full of pop-ads and pernicious cookies. > I'll second the nod to www.dvdfile.com, and add www.dvdtalk.com - they have a link on their front page to a date-sorted list of new DVD releases. They also have a series of message/discussion boards that have a reasonable signal to noise ratio. The one on DVD clubs is particularly good - check out the FAQ on how to maximize value for money when working the system. I just joined for the sixth time this year, and no they don't seem to mind judging by the frequency of offers to rejoin. best, jfb John F Butland O- butland@nbnet.nb.ca ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #312 *******************************