From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #301 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Monday, August 26 2002 Volume 02 : Number 301 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? ["me" ] Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? ["Chris Murtland" ] RE: [loud-fans] I'm skeert ["Larry Tucker" ] Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? ["Phil Gerrard" ] Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert ["Chris Murtland" ] RE: [loud-fans] I'm skeert [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? ["Chris Murtland" ] [loud-fans] Tommy Keene [Cardinal007@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert [Paul King ] Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? [Paul King ] Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey" > All three groups though - *particularly* the last one - are more apt to > remember the ad (and I notice Brianna even remembered which car it was for > - something I failed to do, in fact)... actually, i had to do a google search and look it up. i didn't want to get the title wrong, in case it was one of those randomly titled tracks. i like jethro tull a lot - i got to see them play when i was in high school. they are touring, by the way: AUGUST 27 Verona, NY Turning Stone Casino 28 Trenton, NJ Patriots War Memorial Theatre 29 Holmdel, NJ PNC Bank Arts Centre 30 Atlantic City, NJ Trump Taj Mahal 31 Mashantucket, CT Foxwoods Resort and Casino SEPTEMBER 1 Gilford, NH Meadowbrook Farm in the world of writing skills, a pre-requisite for the positions for which i am receiving resumes, check out the following: "Currently, at Becoming Independent , I am severing as the IT Systems Administrator. I've received frequent commendations from the COO and the CEO of this company. I have gained the respect of my fellow IT colleagues for my technical knowledge, my focus on extreme detail and customer satisfaction level. Many of my colleges have come to me from everything to simple PC questions to helping resolve issues with large network crisis on the spot." colleagues, colleges, hell, it's all the same to me. he goes on to say: "My verbal presentation is excellent..." i guess he can speak well, but boy oh boy, can he not write. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:44:19 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: [loud-fans] I'm skeert Does driving around with a missing gas cap increase your chances of suddenly exploding? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:45:31 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? Stewart Mason wrote: >Which is just kind of sad. Yep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:50:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Stewart Mason wrote: > Oh, for godsakes. This attitude implies not only that art and commerce > have nothing at all to do with each other -- which is so naive it isn't > even worth going into -- but also that people should never make any money > at anything they're good at and enjoy doing. Which is just kind of sad. Now before Stewart explodes into an untidy mess, I'll have to state that I think an attitude which assumes that true artists must never sully themselves with affairs of practicality and business is an attitude that, if held by artists, is guaranteed to result in the mass screwing of artists. Which, ironically, just furthers that attitude. I remember hearing a rebroadcast of an interview with Frank Zappa in which he mentions having phoned up Paul McCartney, having heard that there was some static on the Mothers' parody of the Sgt. Pepper sleeve for their __We're Only in it for the Money_ LP. McCartney professed ignorance, and seemed a bit offput that FZ had called *him*. "That's what lawyers are for," (FZ's praphrase of McCartney), "you and I, we're just about the music." (Okay, the ironies build up pretty thick, this being *McCartney* - but still...) There's a huge difference between approaching your art like a business, and being a big ol' spread-eagled whore. Assuming that if one isn't driving one of them there Spotless Empyreans, one is clearly butt-naked and roundheeled, flat on one's back in the alley, is a pointless, reductive, and ultimately destructive approach. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, deciding that lengthy psychedelic guitar jams play havoc with his grammar... J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of my leg:: __Hemlock Stones__ still that Magic Hour CD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:55:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Chris Murtland wrote: > Does driving around with a missing gas cap increase your chances of > suddenly exploding? Wait - are you like that Baron in David Lynch's _Dune_ that needs those caps? I won't even ask what they're capping off. I should think you should avoid Taco Bell and smoking until it's replaced, however. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Oxygen isn't a text:: __David Robbins__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:58:32 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] I'm skeert |-----Original Message----- |From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey [mailto:jenor@csd.uwm.edu] |Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:55 PM |To: I've never had salt flats for breakfast before... |Subject: Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert | | |On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Chris Murtland wrote: | |> Does driving around with a missing gas cap increase your chances of |> suddenly exploding? | |Wait - are you like that Baron in David Lynch's _Dune_ that |needs those caps? I won't even ask what they're capping off. | |I should think you should avoid Taco Bell and smoking until |it's replaced, however. Oh, stuff a rag down in there and leave half of it hanging out like a fuse. I see this all he time and these cars don't blow up. - -Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:12:58 +0100 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? Jeff wrote: > I'm always curious in cases like these who made that decision: who had > the power to authorize the use of "London Calling"? Do Strummer & > Jones own the rights to their songs? Not all artists do, of course... Several years ago, 'Should I Stay or Should I Go' was used for a Levi's campaign in the UK, and I remember seeing an interview with Mick Jones in which he defended his decision to allow the track to be used, so unless anything's changed, I guess it must have been his and Strummer's decision to licence 'London Calling'. However, isn't 'Fortunate Son' the property of Saul Zaentz rather than John Fogerty? I remember that court case several years ago where Zaentz, as the owner of the Creedence back catalogue, sued Fogerty for plagiarising himself on a later solo album... Stewart wrote: >Or...you could look at it the way that Robert Schneider told me he >did when JC Penney bought the Apples In Stereo's "Look Away" >for a TV ad: he and Hilarie were having a baby and this check >meant they could afford a crib and stroller and car seat. >Because god forbid musicians should ever, you know, get paid for >their work. 'The problem is, Mr Goldwyn, that you are only interested in art, and I am only interested in money' - GB Shaw negotiating the sale of film rights to his plays. Lemme think about this one. My knee-jerk reaction is to cry 'sell- out', but you know, what if the sherry commercials had come first and Orson had got enough money together to fight RKO and keep 'The Magnificent Ambersons' intact? OK, dumb hypothesis, but it's been a long weekend... peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:59:11 -0500 From: Chris Prew Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? > Now before Stewart explodes into an untidy mess, I'll have to state that I > think an attitude which assumes that true artists must never sully > themselves with affairs of practicality and business is an attitude that, > if held by artists, is guaranteed to result in the mass screwing of > artists. Which, ironically, just furthers that attitude. I read an article once that skewered Zach de la Rocha of Rage Against the Machine for being caught shopping at a Banana Republic. Apparently, if you sing anything remotely anti-capitalist, you aren't allowed to shop. The whole sweatshop thing notwithstanding... CP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:03:07 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? |-----Original Message----- |From: Phil Gerrard [mailto:phil.gerrard@ntlworld.com] |Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 4:13 PM |To: loud-fans@smoe.org |Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? | | |Jeff wrote: | |> I'm always curious in cases like these who made that |decision: who had |> the power to authorize the use of "London Calling"? Do Strummer & |> Jones own the rights to their songs? Not all artists do, of course... | |Several years ago, 'Should I Stay or Should I Go' was used for a |Levi's campaign in the UK, and I remember seeing an interview with |Mick Jones in which he defended his decision to allow the track to |be used, so unless anything's changed, I guess it must have been |his and Strummer's decision to licence 'London Calling'. | |However, isn't 'Fortunate Son' the property of Saul Zaentz rather |than John Fogerty? I remember that court case several years ago |where Zaentz, as the owner of the Creedence back catalogue, |sued Fogerty for plagiarising himself on a later solo album... In was pretty sure it wasn't Fogerty's to license/sell. I just found it interesting that the way they used the song avoiding the lyrics. - -Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:06:07 -0500 From: "Kunkel, Mark" Subject: [loud-fans] The Only Band That Matters/Tommy Keene 2 unrelated points (hey, it's slow at work and I'm actually reading the Loud Fans posts for a change): 1. FYI: somebody compiled a list of songs used in commercials: http://www.wavethemes.net/commercials/magister_ludi_list.txt 2. Tommy Keene is playing in Milwaukee on Thursday. Looks like I should rent a car and go. I'm wavering, but it sure sounds like he blew people away in DC. Thanks to whomever for posting the link to the set list. - -- Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:04:53 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert > Wait - are you like that Baron in David Lynch's _Dune_ that needs those > caps? I won't even ask what they're capping off. we used to call him Baron Hard-Colon - i think it's actually Harkonin or something like that. googling - Harkonnen. Vladimir Harkonnen, to be exact. ed and i and a few of our friends did a verbal rewrite of that movie a few years ago. we called it Dung (pronounced "Doong") and renamed all the characters appropriately. > > Does driving around with a missing gas cap increase your chances of > > suddenly exploding? depends on what random strangers try to insert. it IS bad for the environment, regardless. - -- It's well known that if you take a lot of random noise, you can find chance patterns in it, and the Net makes it easier to collect random noise. Dr. James M. Robins, Professor of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at Harvard - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:09:57 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert I'm not quite as "robust" as the Baron. Luckily, I know which oasis of convenience ("come on baby, don't you wanna wanna wanna BUY IT???!!!!") I left it at, so I hope to assuage my fear forthwith. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:14:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [loud-fans] I'm skeert On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Larry Tucker wrote: > |On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Chris Murtland wrote: > | > |> Does driving around with a missing gas cap increase your chances of > |> suddenly exploding? > > Oh, stuff a rag down in there and leave half of it hanging out like a > fuse. I see this all he time and these cars don't blow up. No - not unless Godzilla comes around and decides to play "Russian Revolutionary." Those cars make *great* Molotov cocktails. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::[clever or pithy quote]:: __[source of quote]__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:17:28 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? Well, I did qualify by saying I was an extremist in my thought process. I go back and forth between extremes while thinking about things. Nothing at the extremes is ever true. I understand that. That's not really how I live my life; I'm rather a pragmatist when it comes to actually living (i.e., I try not to think).. But when it comes to thinking, I tend to pit two extremes against each other to see what happens in the tension between the two extremes. A thought process, a belief and a way of living... Three different things. Three separate things. Three distinct things. And, I don't believe I've revealed my "attitude" on-list, except perhaps that attitude which is not entirely true, which to me seems a property of any public attitude (heck, or private attitude for that matter, since everyone is rather deluded). I said, "I think I want" which I believe to be an entirely different matter than being naive about an item of discussion. "I think I want" is not a syllogism or an indication of attitude or a revelation of depth of knowledge. Rather, I meant it to be read as "I am not sure, but based on the limited information available in the murky realm of my own mental landscape, I have a hunch that my own self-delusional desire is..." Normally I wouldn't even take offense to being accused of naivete, because that is basically a last defense against complete misanthropy, but I do like to clarify if the opportunity arises. It may be naive, but I believe I have heard some pure and true sentiments (as measured by my own, faulty, non-objective mechanisms) expressed in music made by people who cared not one whit whether they ever made a dime off of it, and they may not have even been convinced that they were good at music or enjoyed doing it. That's another one for me to chew on (off-list in the comfort of my own citadel): is art supposed to be enjoyable and are you supposed to be good at it? Stewart Mason wrote: > Oh, for godsakes. This attitude implies not only that art and commerce > have nothing at all to do with each other -- which is so naive it isn't > even worth going into -- but also that people should never make any money > at anything they're good at and enjoy doing. Which is just kind of sad. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:15:03 -0700 From: "Douglas Stanley" Subject: [loud-fans] RE: The Only Band that Matters? I guess this might have been a So. California campaign since nobody's mentioned it, but does anyone remember a few months back, Mercedes (or Lexus, I forget) used the Violent Femmes song "It's Gonna Rain" to hawk their new convertibles. Here's a site that proves I wasn't hallucinating. http://www.glyphs.com/forums/load/music/msg0123563521969.html With all the nice "rain" songs out there, I wonder how they came up with that choice? Doug S. > > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:10 -0500 > From: "Kunkel, Mark" > Subject: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? > > Don't know if people have discussed this here, but this weekend I saw that > commercial for Jaguar that uses "London Calling". Followed > immediately by a > commerical for Dockers (I think it was Dockers) that (mis)uses > Creedence's > "Fortunate Son". Here's somebody's 2 cents on the "London Calling" > commericial: http://www.art-for-a-change.com/News/clash.htm > > What's next? How about "Brand New Cadillac" for, umm, Cadillac ads? > > - -- Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:19:19 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: [loud-fans] Monday timewaster that has wasted my entire Monday I don't know why I only found this now, but Michael Swanwick has been writing little (a few paragraphs) stories based on the periodic table. http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/periodictable.html Some of them are incredibly funny (Germanium, or maybe Arsenic, or Xenon, Warrior Princess, a story that closes with "That'll teach you to fuck with a *librarian*!" she snorted.). Enjoy. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:59:30 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: The Only Band that Matters? Heading out of Toronto this morning, I was behind a car (not a Jaguar) that had a proud "The Clash" bumper sticker on it. Right beneath it was a bumper sticker for Pepsi. That seemed kind of appropriate. And while Rush Limbaugh once offered to ditch "My City Was Gone" as his theme, Chrissie Hynde gave her explicit permission since her parents are big Rush fans....and, as she explained, her parents aren't Nazis, so Rush must be kind of alright. Also, let's note that Rush keeps Klaus Nomi on the airwaves. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:51:02 +0100 From: "Phil Gerrard" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: The Only Band that Matters? JRT wrote: > And while Rush Limbaugh once offered to ditch "My City Was Gone" as > his theme, Chrissie Hynde gave her explicit permission since her > parents are big Rush fans....and, as she explained, her parents aren't > Nazis, so Rush must be kind of alright. Also, let's note that Rush > keeps Klaus Nomi on the airwaves. Oh yeah, and let's note, while we're on the subject, that Chrissie is an advocate of capital punishment and a 'Daily Telegraph' reader, not that that will mean much outisde of the UK - sure, there's the animal rights/vegetarianism stuff, but as anybody who's looked at Morrisey's comments re: racial politics will know, anybody who looks to entertainers for a coherent political steer is in for a few surprises... peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:02:39 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: The Only Band that Matters? At 1:51 AM +0100 8/27/02, Phil Gerrard wrote: >JRT wrote: > > > And while Rush Limbaugh once offered to ditch "My City Was Gone" as > > his theme, Chrissie Hynde gave her explicit permission since her > > parents are big Rush fans....and, as she explained, her parents aren't > > Nazis, so Rush must be kind of alright. Also, let's note that Rush > > keeps Klaus Nomi on the airwaves. > >Oh yeah, and let's note, while we're on the subject, that Chrissie is >an advocate of capital punishment and a 'Daily Telegraph' reader, >not that that will mean much outisde of the UK - sure, there's the >animal rights/vegetarianism stuff, but as anybody who's looked at >Morrisey's comments re: racial politics will know, anybody who >looks to entertainers for a coherent political steer is in for a few >surprises... Hitler was a vegetarian, as well, as I recall...and there are plenty of eco-types whose politics have more than a whiff of the Blackshirt about them, especially in Europe. Matt But we are not so much to regard the Ecce, how great it is, as Gaudium, what joy is in it; that is the point we are to speak to. Bishop Lancelot Andrewes (1555-1626), Sermon 5, Of the Nativity ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:03:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: The Only Band that Matters? On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 JRT456@aol.com wrote: > And while Rush Limbaugh once offered to ditch "My City Was Gone" as his > theme, Chrissie Hynde gave her explicit permission since her parents are big > Rush fans....and, as she explained, her parents aren't Nazis, so Rush must be > kind of alright. Also, let's note that Rush keeps Klaus Nomi on the airwaves. Klaus Nomi? Oh lord... From a sense of duty somewhat akin to the need to, say, listen to at least a little bit of a review CD you just know is going to suck horribly, I listened to bits and pieces of one or two Rush shows back in his prime. "Bits and pieces" because, even when he wasn't talking about politics at all (he was talking about sports, I think), I found his voice, attitude, and pronounced tendency to verbally walk all over his callers (yeah, it's his show, but geez) intensely irritating. Wishing to avoid damaging my car's not exactly expensive radio, I turned him off - without hearing when or how Klaus Nomi got used. A google search suggests that "You Don't Owe Me" is used monthly as the theme for Limbaugh's gay updates... I hope Nomi's heirs are happy with their royalty checks (speaking of conflicts between commerce and content). - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::glibby glop gloopy nibby nobby noopy la la la la lo:: np: Aimee Mann _Lost in Space_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:20:48 -0700 From: "me" Subject: [loud-fans] interviews for those of you following the adventures.... interview quote of the day, from one of our top candidates: he was a programmer, by trade, i guess you could say, and he would just like to fill me up. and i liked it. 'nuff said. byt he way, i'm done, thank god, and now i have to write the dear johns and make the congratulatory calls. lucky me - i doubt anyone will turn me down, and they all want almost exactly what we're offering. - -- It's well known that if you take a lot of random noise, you can find chance patterns in it, and the Net makes it easier to collect random noise. Dr. James M. Robins, Professor of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at Harvard - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:22:12 EDT From: Cardinal007@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Tommy Keene In a message dated 8/26/02 4:03:55 PM, Mark.Kunkel@legis.state.wi.us writes: >Tommy Keene is playing in Milwaukee on Thursday. Looks like I should rent >a car and go. I'm wavering, but it sure sounds like he blew people away >in DC. Thanks to whomever for posting the link to the set list. I strongly urge you to go see Tommy's show. This week is the last week of the tour, and you're unlikely to see him with a band again for a year. John, Tommy's drummer, has been playing with Joey Molland for years [that's why Tommy was "solo" "acoustic" on saturday -- John was back in the midwest doing a "Badfinger" gig ....]. Tommy was able to work around that and tour with the band and work around the scheduling problems. BUT his bass player's wife is a teacher who has a position in Japan, and Brad will be spending the school year in the land of the rising sun. So Tommy will be back out the fall, but truly alone. As anyone at the show saw on Sat., Tommy was meant to play with an electric, and was meant to be with a band. He came alive when he picked up his tele, and playing with a band that included his soundman on drums, he nevertheless came alive and brought an ancient chestnut like "Strange Alliance" to life, breathing fire into his audience. So catch that Milwaukee show. And yell for "Love is Love" every chance you get ..... ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 2002 21:40:33 -0400 From: Paul King Subject: Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 15:44, Chris Murtland wrote: > Does driving around with a missing gas cap increase your chances of suddenly exploding? I guess it *would* ... especially if anyone considers smoking around the car!!! I recall coming south on Highway 400 from north of Lake Simcoe (Ontario, Canada). I stopped at an obscure gas station, drove 90 kilometers south toward Toronto, then I had a funny feeling about forgetting to put on the gas cap at the station. I stopped the car on the shoulder. Got out. Checked. No gas cap. Shit. I now had to decide between the risk involved in driving the remaining 200 kilometers to Oakville, or riding the 90 kilometers back to recover the gas cap. That would actually mean 180 kilometers of extra driving for a stupid gas cap. I felt that turning back and recovering the gas cap was a small price to pay, so I turned back. I felt much better, and yes I did find the cap. Paul King ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 2002 22:13:46 -0400 From: Paul King Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 14:17, Chris Murtland wrote: > I think we have the potential to found a loud-only ad agency > > "Slit My Wrists" for the suicide hotline > "Spot the Setup" for Victoria's Secret I would have thought of "Dripping with Looks" > "Sodium Laureth Sulfate" for Clairol > "Where They Go Back to School But Get Depressed" for ECPI Better to have that one for the Staples/Business Depot "Back-to-school" ad campaign (they currently use "It's the most Wonderful Time of the Year" - a Xmas tune - complete with smiling, dancing parents making their way through the store aisles, and depressed looking kids following them) > "untitled - there are no wal-marts worth looting" for Wal-Mart > "Why We Don't Live In Mauritania" for CA Board of Tourism Or really for every board of Tourism except Mauritania > "Businssmen Are Okay" for Dow Jones > "No One's Watching My Limo Ride" for MTV > "Exactly What We Don't Want to Hear" for RIAA > "HOWSOMETH" for Gap > "Last Day That We're Young" for Viagra What about "In a DeLorean"? > "The Picture of Agreeability" for Zoloft > "Save Your Money" for the Ad Council ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:40:12 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] I'm skeert I lost my gas cap on a cross-country trip once. I was quite surprised at how easy it was to find a gas cap for a 1967 Alfa Romeo Giulia Super in Little Rock on a Sunday. Any more recent/common car should be a piece of cake. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 2002 23:16:08 -0400 From: Paul King Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 15:07, Roger Winston wrote: > Chris Murtland on 8/26/2002 12:56:35 PM wrote: > > > To me the message is simply that they won ("they" being the people > > with money or something, I don't know). Using songs in their propaganda > > is just another tool for telling us where our place is. A particularly > > effective tool, since rock is something most people get attached to > > during adolescence, a time when intellectual reasoning isn't fully > > developed and emotional vulnerability is high. And whether the songs > > help sell anything or not really isn't the point - the confusion, > > sadness or outrage is just as good for Them, because we know there is > > nothing to be done about it and it helps us accept our fates as witless > > consumers. > > Hogwash - They *do* just want to sell you stuff. They are not smart enough > or organized enough for the rest of it. To take yet a *third* side to this discussion, they *do* want to sell you stuff, but the thirty seconds they take to do it is heavily researched and focus-grouped. People in the ad represent the age, demographic and income level the businesses target. If you are not part of that demographic (for the Gap (and others) that would mean that if you are not an anorexic 14 year-old imitating an adult for the camera), then I guess you are being put in your place. But that is a side effect. Because they are meant to appeal to mass markets, that has to necessarily mean that they must reinforce stereotypes. You can't sell floor polish if the guy or girl breaks a stereotype, or break out of their sexually-assigned roles (or at least one that doesn't help you sell). That would distract from the 30 seconds. Children are aware of stereotypes to the extent that they learn about it in school, but they really don't understand the extent to which they have been willfully playing up to stereotypes and socially-assigned roles of class, sex, and so on. They think that they are "doing their own thing". But that "thing" is not their own by any means. It is important, however, that kids feel good about this "received" individuality, so that they can feel better when they shop at Gap or some other place. But in order for kids to "think that they are free to choose", takes a lot of saturation marketing that offers you a narrow range of choice. Anything that is not advertised is simply off the agenda. It is important to know that it is likely that no-one has planned businesses to operate in this manner. After all, they only want to sell. But they also want to expand, and they want to kill off the competition, and they want to be in control of the market. The lack of choice and "mind control" aspects are side effects, and are logical extensions of those natural tendencies of business. That is, the lack of choice puts limits on what is discussable and thinkable, making it more difficult to consider alternatives, if they exist. That is not planned, and no one has to be "smart enough" to make all this work the way it does. It just is. The result is that kids (and the rest of us, really) become more passive and less motivated to consider such alternatives. Some of us do the digging, and finally find things that enrich our lives beyond that which is mass-marketed. But mostly we don't. That's what they count on. > > > Either scenario (or any shade of grey in between, for that matter) > > seems equally disheartening and makes me want to take up golf at the end > > of the day > > Well if They want to make you play Golf, then They have already won. > > Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:32:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Tommy Keene On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 Cardinal007@aol.com wrote: > >Tommy Keene is playing in Milwaukee on Thursday. Looks like I should rent > >a car and go. I'm wavering, but it sure sounds like he blew people away > >in DC. Thanks to whomever for posting the link to the set list. > > As anyone at the show saw on Sat., Tommy was meant to play with an electric, > and was meant to be with a band. He came alive when he picked up his tele, > and playing with a band that included his soundman on drums, he nevertheless > came alive and brought an ancient chestnut like "Strange Alliance" to life, > breathing fire into his audience. I saw Tommy Keene the last time he played Milwaukee, and it was indeed an excellent show. Those of you who wish his albums sounded even more Who-like would assuredly like the live, full-band shows. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::pushing the pencil not the envelope:: np: Interpol _Turn on the Bright Lights_ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 2002 23:33:49 -0400 From: Paul King Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 15:14, Chris Murtland wrote: > Of course, here comes the damned twentieth century again, where > everything loops back around and caves in on itself until nothing at > all can be discerned. I have had a goatee and still have Banana > Republic shirts and if offered a sum of cash for a song would probably > take it. Maybe the message (the most depressing of all) is that there > is no them, only you/me, and we are them and there is nothing to > differentiate between anything. There will never be a revolution, > there is no enemy. To me that isn't so depressing, since that means that if you and me is all there is to the world, then the same "you" and "me" have the power to change things for the better. That is if we assume that "you" and "me" got us all into this mess. > > Is there a shortcut key that will delete all thought items created > after 1850 or so in my head? Those novelists who started referring to > themselves in their novels, those artists who decided that the process > of art was the art, those philosophers who asked how do we know what > we mean by cat when we say cat... > But what is all-important is what do *others* mean when they say "cat"? They may not mean "cat" at all. A more tangible question is to ask: what do others mean when they say "freedom"? Do they mean what I mean? That's the only way I can really understand where people are coming from when they start using such big, scary words. What does the word freedom mean in the title "Operation Enduring Freedom" (IMO, it might make more sense to make the word "Enduring" into a verb)? PJK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:39:49 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? Paul King wrote: > > But what is all-important is what do *others* mean when they say "cat"? > They may not mean "cat" at all. A more tangible question is to ask: what > do others mean when they say "freedom"? Do they mean what I mean? That's > the only way I can really understand where people are coming from when > they start using such big, scary words. What does the word freedom mean > in the title "Operation Enduring Freedom" (IMO, it might make more sense > to make the word "Enduring" into a verb)? "America is just a word, but I use it." Fugazi Jen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:37:38 -0400 From: Dana Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] RE: The Only Band that Matters? Hitler was a vegetarian >>>>>>>>> Was not. Grrrrrrrr. - --dana On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:02:39 -0700 Matthew Weber writes: > At 1:51 AM +0100 8/27/02, Phil Gerrard wrote: > >JRT wrote: > > > > > And while Rush Limbaugh once offered to ditch "My City Was Gone" > as > > > his theme, Chrissie Hynde gave her explicit permission since > her > > > parents are big Rush fans....and, as she explained, her parents > aren't > > > Nazis, so Rush must be kind of alright. Also, let's note that > Rush > > > keeps Klaus Nomi on the airwaves. > > > >Oh yeah, and let's note, while we're on the subject, that Chrissie > is > >an advocate of capital punishment and a 'Daily Telegraph' reader, > >not that that will mean much outisde of the UK - sure, there's the > >animal rights/vegetarianism stuff, but as anybody who's looked at > >Morrisey's comments re: racial politics will know, anybody who > >looks to entertainers for a coherent political steer is in for a > few > >surprises... > > Hitler was a vegetarian, as well, as I recall...and there are plenty > > of eco-types whose politics have more than a whiff of the Blackshirt > > about them, especially in Europe. > > Matt > > But we are not so much to regard the Ecce, how great it is, as > Gaudium, what joy is in it; that is the point we are to speak to. > Bishop Lancelot Andrewes (1555-1626), Sermon 5, Of the > Nativity > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:39:30 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Tommy Keene > As anyone at the show saw on Sat., Tommy was meant to play with an electric, > and was meant to be with a band. He came alive when he picked up his tele, > and playing with a band that included his soundman on drums, he nevertheless > came alive and brought an ancient chestnut like "Strange Alliance" to life, > breathing fire into his audience. Tommy with a band is a wonderful thing. I would have loved the novelty of the mostly-acoustic show, but you're probably much better off seeing him in all his electrified glory. > Those of you who wish his albums sounded even more Who-like would > assuredly like the live, full-band shows. Yeah, the albums don't fully convey how exciting a drummer John Richardson is. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:43:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] The Only Band that Matters? On 26 Aug 2002, Paul King wrote: > To take yet a *third* side to this discussion, they *do* want to sell > you stuff, but the thirty seconds they take to do it is heavily > researched and focus-grouped. People in the ad represent the age, > demographic and income level the businesses target.hat is a side effect. > > Because they are meant to appeal to mass markets, that has to > necessarily mean that they must reinforce stereotypes. But ad folks are smart enough these days to know that one stereotype of many of their markets is being opposed to stereotyping. Therefore, anti-stereotypes (or, uh, quasi-anti-stereotypes) are deployed in a series of sneaks designed to woo you as intelligent, independent, savvy, and non-slavishly conforming consumer. Sorta like the cover of XTC's _Go 2_. > roles of class, sex, and so on. They think that they are "doing their > own thing". But that "thing" is not their own by any means. Oh and lord will they defend that it's *their* thing: no matter the extent they're blatantly copping fashion from MTV hero(in)es, they insist to the end on their individuality. When it's suggested that, gee, how come all those *other* people - including MC Flava uvduh Munf - dress like that, they mutter how as it must be a coincidence... > It is important to know that it is likely that no-one has planned > businesses to operate in this manner. After all, they only want to sell. > But they also want to expand, and they want to kill off the competition, > and they want to be in control of the market. The lack of choice and > "mind control" aspects are side effects, and are logical extensions of > those natural tendencies of business. That is, the lack of choice puts > limits on what is discussable and thinkable, making it more difficult to > consider alternatives, if they exist. That is not planned, and no one > has to be "smart enough" to make all this work the way it does. It just > is. I'd disagree that this is not, to an extent, planned. One of the hallmarks of (ahem) postmodern capitalism is the extent to which it is lining folks up for admission, outside a carefully guarded velvet rope, to its castles in the air. Actual products are nearly irrelevant; brand is all. "Tommy Hilfiger," for example, makes *none* of its own clothing: they simply slap a label all over items made by Champion, Munsingwear, etc., along with a hefty pricetag. Connected with the increasing outsourcing of as much as possible of any business's production, you get a situation where what really needs to be advertised is no product at all, just the brand. (Recall the literal idea behind that metaphor - seared cattle flesh - and realize that our subtle persuaders have refined their processes so only their immaterial image is seared into our cerebral cortices.) The game is for you to imagine you're making choices, but narrowing the range of conceivable sources so that all but inevitably you make the choice they want. In _1984_, people knew they were being coerced. In _Brave New World_, they didn't need to be coerced. But Roger's right about the golf. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. ::That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! __Thomas Pynchon, VINELAND__ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #301 *******************************