From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #290 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Tuesday, August 20 2002 Volume 02 : Number 290 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [Dana Paoli ] Re: (Fwd) Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] postmodern transit ["John Swartzentruber" ] Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [] Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [JRT456@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [] Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [Roger Winston ] [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens ["Kunkel, Mark" ] [loud-fans] Gilmore Girls soundtrack album [steve ] Re: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens ["Aaron Milenski" ] [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens, part two ["Aaron Milenski" ] Re: (Fwd) Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash ["Paul King" ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) [Chris Prew ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) [Dave Walker ] Re:Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [loud-fans] Speaking of cars ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) [Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash My CD collection probably conforms to a >typical bell curve; several are really awful, the majority of them are >"ok", and the rest are really excellent. I'll bet my collection would be a >lot smaller if I'd been able to listen to them extensively before I bought >them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know that this is the part where I'm supposed to get all annoyed with this guys specious arguments in favor of stealing, but we've all been there/done that. What interests me at the moment is the bit above. You know, the other day I was at Holy Cow and the owner and I were chatting, and he asked me where I sold CDs that I bought that I didn't like. And after a second of thinking about it, I had to confess that I buy so few bad CDs that it doesn't really come up much. I'm not a brilliant genius, but I have been noticing lately that one of the advantages of spending too much time reading about music is that my educated guesses have become very, very good. In fact, to be honest, the only two CDs that I've bought recently that I didn't like were the New Pornographers and the Shins, both of which I picked up, unresearched, due to recommendations here. Everything else has been very good to great. To go into Jenny mode, am I an exception? Am I canoeing on a different river and landing on the runway in my canoe? Am I being arrested by federal agents for doing that? Are the majority of *your* CDs "ok?" - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:04:57 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Paul King wrote: > Hey, it's my first posting to the list. Howdy. hiya. > > >being. But the labels got greedy, and now they're faced with wholesale > > >piracy where lots of people never pay for any music. > > Even greedier considering that CDs cost record companies > pennines to make in bulk, yet their prices are exorbitant. maybe, but physical production cost != recording cost. retail cost != manufacturer cost > technology that reads those codes. New codes invite new > cracks. And so the cycle goes. They can't play cat-and-mouse > like this forever. For sure they can't expect the consumer to > keep up with every technological nuance that comes along, even > if no alternative exists. isn't this pretty much exactly how the virus/virus protection industry works? > > >putting it up on the Internet. If I wanted to do it, I'd just go to Radio > > >Shack and get a cable to connect my CD player's line output to my computer's > > >line input, press "record" on my computer and "play" on my CD player. Then > > >I'd have a plaintext version on my computer that I could do with as I > > >pleased. Of course it would be transferred in "analog", but I'll bet anyone audio watermarking technologies at least theoretically stop you from doing this with a device chain that includes devices compliant with the technology. secure audio path is built into win2k; my understanding is that if/when it is activated, it simply won't transfer/copy audio files with restrictions coded into them. at least two companies claim that even though their watermarking is "inaudible" to the listener, it is robust enough to survive conversions from mp3 to waveform and recompression. > It may create the image, but when the CD is made, it might > still be un-playable for some other reason (something > (encryption key?) encoded into the plastic of the original?), > resulting in a wasted effort. all the copy protect schemes i know of work by gaming the redbook standard; they put data somewhere physically on the disc that is not where the redbook standard says data of that type should be. the discs won't play in a lot of old audio cd players. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:37:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Dana Paoli wrote: > Are the majority of *your* CDs "ok?" The majority of my CDs are pretty close in quality to what I thought they'd be. If I only bought CDs I expected to be great, though, I would (a) never get a pleasant surprise (b) expand my horizons much slower and (c) not hear those two good songs on mediocre albums by artists I like. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:42:19 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] postmodern transit On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:56:46 -0400, Janet Ingraham Dwyer wrote: >When we're packed for a trip or carrying a third adult (or second child) >passenger, that cute car of ours is pretty well stuffed. I fear and dread >that we'll have to trade in for a minivan when baby #2 shows up. Our VW Passat Wagon (V6, manual transmission, of course) holds both of our car seats pretty well. I figure when we need more space, the first step is a roof rack. What I really fear is that we will need a minivan so that we have a space for the TV. I never thought I would even think of considering such a thing, but sanity is sanity. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:49:54 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash > Are the majority of *your* CDs "ok?" What Aaron said. My only worries are (a) that I tend to be a little too cautious in my selection, although I guess I could put that down to the ridculous overpricing of CDs in the UK, and (b) that, pace Lester Bangs, and as I quoted to MD earlier this week, if one is a fan (or if one thinks that a certain record should be the kind of thing one enjoys), one finds a way to like certain records. It's weird, but does anybody else worry about whether they actively *rationalise* their way into liking certain records? In my more cynical moments I get the impression that certain major rock critics do it all the time... peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:53:03 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash & yes, having used the phrase 'certain records' way too many times for the sake of clarity in that last mail, I am painfully aware that I could use a good thesaurus - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:56:26 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash In a message dated 8/20/02 4:50:35 AM, dana-boy@juno.com writes: << I'm not a brilliant genius, but I have been noticing lately that one of the advantages of spending too much time reading about music is that my educated guesses have become very, very good. >> I've bought over 1,000 CD's over the past three weeks, and decided to keep two of them. The vast majority of the rejects are import albums that would logically appeal to power pop and indie fans. While listening to these CD's and cultivating my hatred, I'd search the Internet and find all kinds of rave reviews for these acts. The critics' comparisons would sucker in most people on this List. I'll grant that I seem to be more discerning than most when it comes to power pop, but this month has mainly convinced me that rock critics all over the world have joined their American brethren in no longer caring that most people have to actually pay for their CD's. Maybe that's the basis for Dana's most reliable educated guess. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:07:55 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash JRT picked up on the part of the equation I missed with this: >this month has mainly convinced me that rock critics >all over the world have joined their American brethren in >no longer caring that most people have to actually pay >for their CD's. Yeah, I guess the other reason I sometimes try too hard to make myself like records is that once you've spent #15-#20 of yer hard-earned on a CD, you really *want* to get something worthwhile out of it. Back in my student critic days, there was a lot of mean-spirited fun to be had in ripping into 'Young Guns II' or the latest Bulletboys LP, but once I was out of the game and forced to pay my own way, it just didn't seem like such a joke to subject myself to stuff I knew would be rotten... Present company excepted of course (I mean, glenn is an exemplar of how things *should* work), I tend to feel a little queasy about the relationships between most critics and the biz at large, and wonder whether some people realise that music criticism isn't the simple, altruistic act of consumer protection that some of its exponents would claim it to be... peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:11:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 phil.gerrard@ntlworld.com wrote: > It's weird, but does anybody else worry about whether they actively > *rationalise* their way into liking certain records? I do, and then sometimes I in fact start ACTUALLY liking those records, or start liking them more, or whatever, which throws the whole thing into perspective. The most common situation, really, is where I hear one song I love by a band I know I'm supposed to like anyway, and then buy multiple albums by them never much liking anything other than that song, but have started thinking of myself as at least a casual fan of theirs. A few weeks ago this happened to me while listening to the Go-Betweens reissues. Now I think the band is brilliant, and perhaps I subconsciously detected this brilliance all along. But I was not as receptive as I should have been to said brilliance for the five years I was saying "Yeah, the Go-Betweens, they're pretty good." A follow-up to the risktaking thing: I used to have this comically complicated system where my birthday list consisted of a long list of records sorted by how much I knew about them and my parents were instructed to make sure my presents were spread out along the list to ensure the proper distribution of uncertainty. It worked great, I have to say. It meant my parents could surprise me, more or less. Only once did I say "YOU HAVE TO GET ME THIS PARTICULAR THING" -- my last birthday at home, six years ago today, when Interbabe Concern came out. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:12:58 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash At Tuesday 8/20/2002 07:48 AM -0400, Dana Paoli wrote: >Are the majority of *your* CDs "ok?" No. But I'm a Collector, so it doesn't matter. How can anyone not like the New Pornographers?? Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:43:59 -0500 From: "Kunkel, Mark" Subject: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens Chris Murtland wrote: "I have to agree that LN is probably the most timeless of the catalog (if you quietly skip "Mammoth Gardens")." This issue has arisen before, I think, but is it really a minority opinion to actually like, really like, Mammoth Gardens? It's always been one of my fav GT songs. It has an eighties sound, to my ears, but there's nothing wrong with that. _____________________________________________________ Mark D. Kunkel Legislative Attorney Legislative Reference Bureau (608) 266-0131 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:45:27 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash The majority of my CDs are pretty close in quality to what I thought they'd be. If I only bought CDs I expected to be great, though, I would (a) never get a pleasant surprise (b) expand my horizons much slower and (c) not hear those two good songs on mediocre albums by artists I like. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of that sounds great!! What I think would be great is if every morning a beautiful redhead would steal me a CD and a pint of Ben & Jerry's and then give me a long backrub. That would be a really pleasant surprise and it would expand my horizons very quickly, and I probably wouldn't care if the CD was mediocre. No one ever said that crime has no rewards. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:46:29 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens I quite like the song as a song, but it sounds so strange in the context of side 3 of LN, and I was never sure how deliberate an anomaly that was... phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:47:33 -0500 From: steve Subject: [loud-fans] Gilmore Girls soundtrack album http://www.gilmore-girls.net/extras/soundtrack.html With new Sam Phillips songs. - - Steve __________ OS X is faster, smarter, prettier, and easier to use than any version of Windows. - Robert X. Cringely ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:51:50 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens >This issue has arisen before, I think, but is it really a minority opinion >to actually like, really like, Mammoth Gardens? It's always been one of my >fav GT songs. It has an eighties sound, to my ears, but there's nothing >wrong with that. > No, I like it too, and I especially like "Look Away" and won't forget that Donette co-wrote "Not Because You Can." I think "Mammoth Gardens" and "Look Away" really add to LOLITA NATION and, along with teh instrumentals and weirdness on side three, give it some nice diversity. I don't think I'd like the album as much if those songs hadn't been on it. I also believe that Donnet's contributions are still the reason Scott insists that LOLITA NATION will never be reissued. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:54:16 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens, part two Keep in mind that my defense of "Mammoth Gardens" certainly has nothing to do with its "80s sound." I just like the song and I like Donette's singing. In fact, as far as 80s sound goes, I'm one of the few (the only?) on this list who dislikes BIG SHOT CHRONICLES and thinks it was completely ruined by the production. Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:36:51 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] you had to be a... I'm one of the few (the only?) on this list who dislikes BIG SHOT CHRONICLES and thinks it was completely ruined by the production. >>>>>>>>>> It's my least favorite GT album, not counting compilations. Love the first song, but after that... - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:38:23 -0400 From: "Paul King" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens Subject: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens Date sent: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:43:59 -0500 From: "Kunkel, Mark" To: > Chris Murtland wrote: > > "I have to agree that LN is probably the most timeless of the catalog > (if you quietly skip "Mammoth Gardens")." > Well, I thought it was one of the stronger tracks. Donnette was just right for the song. I really don't care if she was criticized for sounding too much like Belinda Carlisle. > This issue has arisen before, I think, but is it really a minority opinion to > actually like, really like, Mammoth Gardens? It's always been one of my fav GT > songs. It has an eighties sound, to my ears, but there's nothing wrong with > that. _____________________________________________________ Mark D. Kunkel > Legislative Attorney Legislative Reference Bureau (608) 266-0131 =========================================== Paul King Oakville, ON ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:38:23 -0400 From: "Paul King" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Paul King wrote: > > > Hey, it's my first posting to the list. Howdy. > > hiya. > > > > >being. But the labels got greedy, and now they're faced with wholesale > > > >piracy where lots of people never pay for any music. > > > > Even greedier considering that CDs cost record companies > > pennines to make in bulk, yet their prices are exorbitant. > > maybe, but physical production cost != recording cost. retail cost != > manufacturer cost > It doesn't matter, since vinyl used to cost around a dollar per LP to press, but were retailed at nearly half the price of a CD. I still say that we are being charged way beyond what we ought to be paying for CDs. In fact, we are not being charged according to all that manufacturing/value-added stuff, IMO. I think these days we are charged whatever the traffic will bear. Adding up all those costs and then adding royalties and profit as was done for LPs won't justify what we are paying. You might check out Courtney Love's speech at Digital Hollywood to see how these costs you list above don't justify what artists are being paid. Pretty compelling: http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/ index.html (actually, it's in several places on the 'net). PJK =========================================== Paul King Oakville, ON ================================================== ======= Paul King http://www3.sympatico.ca/pking123/ (905) 842-7451 (416) 428-7451 (cell) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:46:06 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) Aaron Mandel wrote: > A follow-up to the risktaking thing: I used to have this comically > complicated system where my birthday list consisted of a long list of > records sorted by how much I knew about them and my parents were > instructed to make sure my presents were spread out along the list to > ensure the proper distribution of uncertainty. It worked great, I have to > say. It meant my parents could surprise me, more or less. Only once did I > say "YOU HAVE TO GET ME THIS PARTICULAR THING" -- my last birthday at > home, six years ago today, when Interbabe Concern came out. And since IBC is six years old today, I'm just going to mention that I can't believe the number of people giving short-shift to this release, because I think IBC is Scott's flat-out masterwork. Thought so six years ago, and still think so now. It's more front-and-center than the other albums, and the production is more direct, but I hear poppy sing-along melodies all over the album, every time I listen. And it was released on Aaron Mandel's birthday. another ass-end Leo Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:03:55 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) I have to admit that IBC is the one Scott album I find it easier to respect than to like. It's nothing to do with any preference for pop over noise or the like, as I've always loved both sides of Scott's output equally, but there's something about the pacing of IBC which doesn't quite work for me. The sequencing of the second half seems to make the album drag a bit for me, something which also affects AN, IMHO. In addition, the playing and production on IBC don't seem quite as nuanced to me as on the albums which pre- and post-date it... but I'm only any good at spotting nuance when it's really friggin' obvious, to be (oxy)moronic about it, so I'm sure I'm missing something. peace & love phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:02:09 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: [loud-fans] CD backlash, Deep Discount > Are the majority of *your* CDs "ok?" I wind up liking a pretty small fraction of the CDs I listen to, despite my exercising caution in advance. I've never found a way to minimize the risk: never found a critic or another person, or even a group of people, who could steer me in the right direction reliably. Nor a set of critical phrases that, when they pop up often enough, increase my chances. Maybe y'all know about this already, but: there's a site called MySimon (http://www.mysimon.com) that purports to compare the prices of various music vendors on the net. I'm starting to think that MySimon is really a scam to get people to buy from a place called Deep Discount CDs. Not only does Deep Discount always have the lowest prices on MySimon, but there's always a $2 discount for people who come to Deep Discount via the MySimon web site - if you go straight to Deep Discount, you don't get the same low price. I wonder if this is illegal somehow. Anyway, almost everything you buy from Deep Discount via MySimon costs US$9.97 with no shipping charges. This is true, for instance, of the new Sleater-Kinney and Spoon albums that came out today. I haven't checked to see if this works for non-US buyers. But I tried it once, and it worked. I think the album was a long time coming in the mail, but I don't know if that's a pattern. Today is also the release date of the new album from Scott Merritt, an obscure Canadian who hasn't put anything out since VIOLET AND BLACK on I.R.S. in 1989. I don't think he's to the taste of most people on this list, but I thought I'd give a heads-up in case there are any other Scott Merritt fans lurking out there. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:58 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Egregiously NS Postmodern Transit and Location At 10:21 PM 8/19/2002 -0400, Francis J H Park wrote: > - New England is nice (I like) but neither of us do cold weather well (a >few summer months in Kuwait back in '97 changed my perception of "hot" to >95+F.) Anyone who's been in Boston for the last week knows why I'm still giggling at this statement... S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:06:23 -0400 From: Dan Sallitt Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Mammoth Gardens > This issue has arisen before, I think, but is it really a minority opinion to actually like, really like, Mammoth Gardens? It's always been one of my fav GT songs. It has an eighties sound, to my ears, but there's nothing wrong with that. I like "Mammoth Gardens," though I don't like "Look Away" that much. I've always wondered if people would hate it so much if not for the mindless repetition of "dance and dance and dance and...", which is sort of a provocation on an album otherwise so lyrically ambitious. - Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:17:03 -0500 From: Chris Prew Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) I will go on record saying that IbC is not only one of Scott's best works (just behind Lolita), but probably one of the best albums of the 90's, right up there with Loveless & Slanted (imho). I would say that of all the albums I own (500+) that are not a recent release, I probably listen to this the most. Its the only CD that I own two copies of. Chris Who likes both Mammoth Gardens (somewhat) and Look Away (a lot) http://www.mp3.com/sombertown > I have to admit that IBC is the one Scott album I find it easier to respect > than to like. It's nothing to do with any preference for pop over noise or the > like, as I've always loved both sides of Scott's output equally, but there's > something about the pacing of IBC which doesn't quite work for me. The > sequencing of the second half seems to make the album drag a bit for me, > something which also affects AN, IMHO. In addition, the playing and production > on IBC don't seem quite as nuanced to me as on the albums which pre- and > post-date it... but I'm only any good at spotting nuance when it's really > friggin' obvious, to be (oxy)moronic about it, so I'm sure I'm missing > something. > > peace & love > > phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:19:49 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash (fwd) not that you really want to read this, but, i thought Paul had written me privately, but since it looks like the same msg went to the list, i'll fwd my response in case anyone wants to continue the discourse. although i've pretty much said what i to say... this ground is a little too familiar somehow. except for the rant about how there are no economic drivers for labels to deliberately release albums with the proverbial one or two songs. they don't do it on purpose; they're just clueless about what a good song is. i think you get a blind spot when you listen to music with one eye on the cash register. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw To: Paul King Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Paul King wrote: > > maybe, but physical production cost != recording cost. retail cost != > > manufacturer cost > > > > It doesn't matter, since vinyl used to cost around a dollar > per LP to press, but were retailed at nearly half the price of > a CD. I still say that we are being charged way beyond what we > ought to be paying for CDs. In fact, we are not being charged i'm not going to fight about this, and i don't like being forced to play apologist for the corporate media structure, but it's simply not reasonable to compare 80's-era-vinyl distro chains with the current climate. the overwhelming difference is that the consolidation of distributors means that middle men take a much bigger cut before it gets to a retail store. the other folks who get bigger pieces of the pie than they used to are mastering engineers and re-mixers. ...please don't misunderstand me, i don't LIKE the current system and i am doing what i can do to change it...but it's not a simple system, and not all of the things that are bad about it are things that the labels control. incidentally, most indie stores in my experience sell new cds for $11 on the low side to $17 on the high side. i'm not even sure that's all that out of line with inflation over the past 15 years or so. > You might check out Courtney Love's speech at Digital > Hollywood to see how these costs you list above don't justify > what artists are being paid. Pretty compelling: a. i didn't list costs b. there is no way that cutting retail prices of cds is going to increase artist's share; the artist has always been the easiest party to bilk -- in most cases they're making pennies on the dollar as it is, and since most albums don't recoup, even those pennies are largely hypothetical. c. i am a vigorous proponent of artists' rights, including but not limited to reform of the industry-standard contract (rights reversions), independent accounting review (tho i don't know who you could trust to do it!) etc. hey, do i know you from another list? are you on pho? - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:27:17 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) With all of the IBC list talk right now, I cued it up to listen while I'm catching up on my mail, and I'm reminded that it contains my all-time favorite of Scott's YAHFAs -- "Not Expecting Both Contempo And Classique"-- wonderful song. And I like "Uncle Lucky." -d.w. ps: Apropos of all the Elvis Presley hoopla this week, the bit I can't get out of my head is Chuck D's delivery on the line from "Fight The Power" "Elvis / was a hero to most / but he never meant shit to me" -- I don't agree with the sentiment, but just the actual rapping (his control of tempo, pitch, and flow) is so effective. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:10 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: [loud-fans] IBC backlash/nineties nineties nineties Steve H: >And since IBC is six years old today, I'm just going to mention that I >can't believe the number of people giving short-shift to this release, >because I think IBC is Scott's flat-out masterwork. Thought so six years >ago, and still think so now. It's more front-and-center than the other >albums, and the production is more direct, but I hear poppy sing-along >melodies all over the album, every time I listen. And it was released on >Aaron Mandel's birthday. Amen to everything Steve says here. I'd probably still rank LN just ahead, but not by much, and I've probably listened to IBC far more than LN or most anything over the last four years (i.e., when IBC wasn't "the new Scott album" anymore and had to compete with everything else from the past for playing time). Chris Prew: >I will go on record saying that IbC is not only one of Scott's best works >(just behind Lolita), but probably one of the best albums of the 90's, right >up there with Loveless & Slanted (imho). You had me up until this last part. My Pavement anathema is well-known, though S&E annoys me less than their subsequent material, and MBV... well, they didn't grab me at the time, but after "When You Sleep" made the '98 LF tour setlist and engendered a great outpouring of MBV worship on this selfsame list, I re-bought LOVELESS. I listened to it three times. And my reaction was still "why am I listening to this when Kitchens of Distinction is so much better?" I did this top 25 of the '90s for Audities, but don't think I sent it to Loud-Fans. Since we've all had a few years to think about this, maybe it's worth re-starting the "Best of the '90s" thread by re-posting this here. Did Aaron Mandel ever do a "Loud-Fan Best of the '90s" webthingy poll? Anyway: 1) Nirvana, NEVERMIND (1991) 2) Wilco, SUMMERTEETH (1999) 3) Frank Black, TEENAGER OF THE YEAR (1994) 4) R.E.M., OUT OF TIME (1991) 5) Julian Cope, 20 MOTHERS (1995) 6) Lloyd Cole, LLOYD COLE (1990) 7) R.E.M., NEW ADVENTURES IN HI-FI (1996) 8) The Loud Family, INTERBABE CONCERN (1996) 9) Tom Petty, WILDFLOWERS (1995) 10) Jason & the Scorchers, CLEAR IMPETUOUS MORNING (1996) 11) Julian Cope, JEHOVAHKILL (1992) 12) Momus, THE PHILOSOPHY OF MOMUS (1995) 13) Midnight Oil, EARTH AND SUN AND MOON (1993) 14) Radiohead, O.K. COMPUTER (1997) 15) Yo La Tengo, I CAN HEAR THE HEART BEATING AS ONE (1997) 16) The Judybats, DOWN IN THE SHACKS WHERE THE SATELLITE DISHES GROW (1992) 17) Radiohead, THE BENDS (1995) 18) Momus, STARS FOREVER (1999) 19) The Loud Family, DAYS FOR DAYS (1998) 20) P.J. Harvey, RID OF ME (1993) 21) Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians, PERSPEX ISLAND (1991) 22) Beck, MUTATIONS (1998) 23) Local H, PACK UP THE CATS (1998) 24) Tricky, MAXINQUAYE (1995) 25) Eno/Cale, WRONG WAY UP (1990) later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:58:55 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) At 11:27 AM 8/20/2002 -0400, Dave Walker wrote: >ps: Apropos of all the Elvis Presley hoopla this week, >the bit I can't get out of my head is Chuck D's delivery >on the line from "Fight The Power" >"Elvis / was a hero to most / but he never meant shit to me" -- >I don't agree with the sentiment, but just the actual >rapping (his control of tempo, pitch, and flow) is so >effective. Exactly -- that line plays through my head a lot, sometimes with some other venerated person substituted for Elvis, sometimes not. Plus Living Colour used it in "Elvis Is Dead," giving me a late '80s/early '90s double-dose of the line. BTW, if anyone has tape/0s and 1s of Living Colour doing "Rockin' in the Free World" or (to connect to the Ubu thread) "Final Solution" live, I'd like to know about it. The latter was just mind-blowing the one time I saw them in concert -- it wasn't just a hugely pleasant surprise that they'd do it, but it also blew the roof off the joint. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:24:56 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash I suspect my CDs follow a fairly normal distribution, too, skewed less than you'd expect by my willingness to buy things that I know next to nothing about. It's my long-standing belief that the "one good song and lots of filler" reaction says a lot more about the listener and their methods of discovering music than it does about the music. Any even moderately heterogeneous album is going to have songs that are more *something* than the others, and if you buy a record based on one song, you probably have no idea whether the thing you like about that song is representative or not. Commercial promotion mechanisms (radio and MTV especially) tend to select for novelty, increasing the chance that you'll react differently to the rest of the album. So don't do that. Don't listen to the radio, don't watch MTV. Find out about music from mailing lists and reviews and web sites, and if something sounds intriguing, go listen to a bunch of clips (the band probably has a web site, and/or CDNow or Amazon will probably let you hear 30 seconds of every song) and see what you think. Skimming clips won't necessarily tell you what your eventual regard for the album will be, but it will usually rule out the records on which you're only going to like one song. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:28:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > All of that sounds great!! What I think would be great is if every > morning a beautiful redhead would steal me a CD and a pint of Ben & > Jerry's and then give me a long backrub. That would be a really > pleasant surprise and it would expand my horizons very quickly, and I > probably wouldn't care if the CD was mediocre. > > No one ever said that crime has no rewards. 'The fuck are you talking about? You just said something sarcastic, in response to me, on a thread about CD purchasing. So I assume this has something to do with filesharing. And yet, I am at a loss to figure out why you would be hostile about me buying CDs unheard because sometimes I like surprises. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Speaking of cars On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, steve wrote: > That's Miyazaki's Audi in this trailer - > > > http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/spirited_away.html This is a truly magical film. I got goose bumps just watching the trailer, remembering how wonderful it is. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:12:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Miles Goosens wrote: > Exactly -- that line plays through my head a lot, sometimes with some other > venerated person substituted for Elvis, sometimes not. Plus Living Colour > used it in "Elvis Is Dead," giving me a late '80s/early '90s double-dose of > the line. The Barenaked Ladies' cover of "Fight The Power" (on the CONEHEADS soundtrack, which isn't nearly as bad as you might think) uses the repeated first line as a chance to go all freaky. To wit: Elvis was a hero to most, but he... Elvis was a hero to most Buddy Ebsen was a hero to most Buddy Rich was a hero to most Buddy Hackett was a hero to most Nutty Buddy was a hero to most FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET is one of my favorite albums from the '90s. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:13:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] CD backlash On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 phil.gerrard@ntlworld.com wrote: > It's weird, but does anybody else worry about whether they actively > *rationalise* their way into liking certain records? In my more > cynical moments I get the impression that certain major rock critics > do it all the time... Ask anyone who bought the last Lou Reed record... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:21:30 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) On Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 01:12 PM, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Miles Goosens wrote: > > FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET is one of my favorite albums from the '90s. I just went back and listened to this album (prompted by this mini-thread) and realized that the version of the song that was playing in my head isn't the one that's on this album. The original version of "Fight The Power" is on the "Do The Right Thing" soundtrack and the version that's on _Fear of A Black Planet_ is a remix, with the "Elvis" line sampled and repeated (and, regrettably, bleeped, along with the classic insult "motherfuck him AND John Wayne"). I think the uncensored original is only on the DTRT soundtrack. -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:34:54 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Re: IBC backlash (horribly on-topic) At 01:21 PM 8/20/2002 -0400, Dave Walker wrote: >On Tuesday, August 20, 2002, at 01:12 PM, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: > >> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Miles Goosens wrote: >> >> FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET is one of my favorite albums from the '90s. Actually Joe said that, though I'd be glad to second it -- even if it isn't one of my 25 favorites of the '90s, it's still darn good, if not as outrageously good as the first two PE albums, especially MILLIONS... In an ironic twist of fate, samples of Chuck D. on other people's records are probably more heard these days than anything by PE or Chuck themselves. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:30:36 EDT From: LeftyZ@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] postmodern transit In a message dated 8/19/02 9:04:50 PM, rwinston@tde.com writes: << (An avowed manual transmission driver/lover until my latest car. As I keep telling you guys, I'm getting old and feeble. It's a lot easier to switch CDs in the player when you don't have to worry about shifting.) >> On this topic. I recently got an iPod. It's simply amazing. I got the 10 gig version. I have a cassette adapter for the car. No need to fumble with CDs. The sound is quite amazing. In the car, certainly, I notice no difference between the iPod and a CD. But, perhaps the greatest fun about this unit is that I got to spend about two weeks loadin' it up. It has been a blast picking my favorite 150 CDs. (Looks like the thing holds about 170 CDs, but I've left some room for new stuff.) Anyone else got an iPod or other hard drive recorder like it? I LOVE this thing. Left ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #290 *******************************