From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #280 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, August 15 2002 Volume 02 : Number 280 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] A shot in the dark... [Michael Zwirn ] Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too ["John Swartzentruber" ] Re: [loud-fans] Pixies Purple- Dissenting View ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Promotional Solvents [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux ["me" ] [loud-fans] mea culpa, imperial teen (ns) [dana-boy@juno.com] [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks [Matthew Weber ] Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux ["moxie" ] Re: [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks ["moxie" ] Re: [loud-fans] Spoon? [Jon Tveite ] Re: [loud-fans] Matthew Sweet/early albums ["md.robbins" ] Re: [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks [jenny grover ] [loud-fans] neobuckwheatskin ["me" ] [loud-fans] MS Word and its infinite wisdom ["me" ] Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review [Stewart Mason but that's the part that i'm railing against: the suggestion that an mp3 >download *should* be considered a replacement for, or equal in value to, >physical distribution of a higher fidelity recording. > >which you may not be suggesting, but which a lot of people assuredly are. They've been suggesting it for a long time, and it still hasn't happened. The public doesn't seem to want to pay CD prices for mp3s. Something like the emusic model (pay a monthly fee, download all you want) may well take off, though. Certainly my brother loves it to death. >> *Caveat: to achieve this level of quality you need to have a good encoder and >> know how to use it. >this is probably another thing i think maybe you should write a book >about. It would be a pretty short book, to wit: 1. Pony up for an mp3 encoder that allows you to use the Fraunhofer codec at its highest quality setting. (AFAIK there are no free encoders that meet both of these criteria.) The Pro Tools encoder ($29, but requires Pro Tools) is an example. 2. Resist the temptation to use anything but the highest quality setting, even though it takes about three or four times the track length to encode a song. This is probably overkill if you're just ripping a CD to your iPod, but if you're producing mp3s for public consumption, this is how you maximize quality. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:35:34 -0700 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: Re: [loud-fans] A shot in the dark... On 8/14/02 11:17 AM, Michael Bowen wrote: > Sounds like "Before Too Long", by Paul Kelly & The Messengers, from the > GOSSIP album. And, lest it be unmentioned, a wonderful song from a brilliant album. Michael, major Paul Kelly fan p.s. Kelly Willis has a Paul Kelly cover on her soon-to-be released album, EASY. - -- "'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice. And when justice is gone, there's always force. And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom!" Laurie Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:45:08 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > 1. Pony up for an mp3 encoder that allows you to use the Fraunhofer codec at its > highest quality setting. (AFAIK there are no free encoders that meet both of > these criteria.) The Pro Tools encoder ($29, but requires Pro Tools) is an > example. a) i thought a lot of [audiophile/engineer] people were saying the Fraunhofer codec wasn't the best? b) how do you know what the "highest" quality setting is? for a given target b/w, that is. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:45:55 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:22:11 -0700, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >1. Pony up for an mp3 encoder that allows you to use the Fraunhofer codec at its >highest quality setting. (AFAIK there are no free encoders that meet both of >these criteria.) The Pro Tools encoder ($29, but requires Pro Tools) is an >example. Tim, how would you respond to this (from http://www.ping.be/satcp/eac13.htm): "Nowadays Fraunhofer is surpassed in both quality and speed by LAME. When it comes to Variable Bitrate encoding you better forget about Fraunhofer. It's just not on par with LAME. If you really want the best encoder you better read the LAME part of this tutorial. What Fraunhofer excels in is low bitrate encoding. At bitrates of 128 kbit/s and lower no other encoder can beat Fraunhofer. However, our goal is creating high bitrate (thus higher quality) MP3 files." I'm not questioning you or doubting you. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to back up my collection (or at least the most important parts) and possibly have it available for playback downstairs (by plugging a notebook with an 802.11b card into the receiver). I've started this process using Exact Audio Copy and LAME, but now you are making me wonder. Sorry that this is all legal and isn't raising ethical issues. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:47:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 mbowen@frontiernet.net wrote: > Badly Drawn Boy - "The Shining": One of two tracks on this comp that I > already own. I like this song with its simple arrangement, but the > Avalanches remix version is absolutely wonderful. For those of you who don't > have the moral fortitude to pay 12 bucks or more for the 4-track import > single with the remixes, the Avalanches version is available for > artist-authorized download at > http://www.epitonic.com/artists/badlydrawnboy.html. Michael, thanks for the review. I disagree strongly with you about the merit of the Avalnaches remix. Their beat is out of alignment with the meter of the singing, and the orchestrations drown the song, taking what is a fragile song and making it sound like a Eurovision entry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:56:09 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pixies Purple- Dissenting View On Monday, August 12, 2002, at 03:57 PM, Aaron Mandel wrote: > but I had hoped they'd issue the whole > original demo tape -- I suspect that, despite Come On Pilgrim being the > better half of it, the whole thing would sound better as a full album, > sequenced as original, etc. > That's a pretty good idea... I don't suppose there's anyplace where the original running order is available, is there? With a cd changer or a custom CDR it should be possible to reproduce the original running order as long as you own both C.O.P. and Purple. - -- Dave Walker freeform radio and live, nude fish at: http://www.freeke.org/ffg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:00:00 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too >a) i thought a lot of [audiophile/engineer] people were saying the >Fraunhofer codec wasn't the best? I've heard people say that LAME is better for fast encoding, but my impression is that there's a consensus that Fraunhofer is the best at the highest quality setting. I could be wrong about that, but I can testify that I get good results with Fraunhofer, and haven't had such good luck with other codecs (although I haven't made a thorough investigation, by any means). I can't remember if I ever tried LAME; the integration of Fraunhofer with PT makes it so convenient that the difference would have to be quite noticeable to get me to switch. I did once do a listening test with various bit rates, and found that, while higher rates sounded better, they weren't really worth the increased bandwidth. The difference between 384k and 128k was a lot less than the difference between 384k and the CD. You could make a case for 192k, but I didn't think it was worth bucking the standard for. >b) how do you know what the "highest" quality setting is? for a given >target b/w, that is. In PT you get two menus: one for the target bandwidth, one that lets you choose "faster", "medium", or "highest" quality. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:58:47 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 01:27 PM, dmw wrote: >> *Caveat: to achieve this level of quality you need to have a good >> encoder and >> know how to use it. > > this is probably another thing i think maybe you should write a book > about. The short version: % lame --alt-preset standard -Y original.wav compressed.mp3 the long version: http://www.r3mix.net/ -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:03:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Pixies Purple- Dissenting View On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Dave Walker wrote: > That's a pretty good idea... I don't suppose there's anyplace where the > original running order is available, is there? With a cd changer > or a custom CDR it should be possible to reproduce the original running > order as long as you own both C.O.P. and Purple. http://www.evo.org/html/group/pixies.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:17:14 -0400 From: Richard Gagnon Subject: [loud-fans] Bestine JRT writes: Are we all so into our computer layouts that nobody remembers Bestine? It's still the best that I've ever used for removing sticker residue, and one quart container can easily last for almost a decade. I haven't forgotten the smell of the Compugraphic chemicals, the waxer for layouts (or, the even more low-tech alternative, rubber cement). I loved those pretty wax bars you fed into the machine. I remember those boards with all the blue lines (light and dark), I remember photostats, I remember Bestine despite all the brain cells its vapors killed. A lot of these techniques are still useful (no, not huffing) in illustration! Taking me way back, Richard - -- "A thought raced through my mind like a nasty little rodent. I wondered what she would look like with a beard". ******Ross Macdonald, "The Name is Archer"****** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:28:27 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos First, a correction. I said to use Stick-Ease last night and I should have said Ease-Away. Stick-Ease may be bad stuff to use on plastic. Sorry about the confusion. "Keegstra, Russell" wrote: > > My favorite method is to use the sticker itself -- restick part > of it over the stuff you want to remove, then rip it off like a > bandage. Much of the sticky will come off with the sticker, > although you may need to repeat the process several times to get > it all. I've had really good luck with this approach. This is my first line of defense, followed by Scotch tape, if the sticker itself seems to want to spread it's goo around instead of removing it. However, often, even if the sticky feeling is removed, little milky looking marks can remain. Sometimes Windex will take them off, sometimes not. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:40:58 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Promotional Solvents "Joseph M. Mallon" wrote: > > I recommend Goo-Gone, available (I think) in most office supply stores. Unless they've recently changed the formula, be very careful with Goo-Gone. I've had it turn plastic milky. I don't think all jewel boxes are made of the same exact composition, so it could be dicey. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:44:45 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too >Tim, how would you respond to this (from >http://www.ping.be/satcp/eac13.htm): >"Nowadays Fraunhofer is surpassed in both quality and speed by LAME. >When it comes to Variable Bitrate encoding you better forget about >Fraunhofer. It's just not on par with LAME. If you really want the best >encoder you better read the LAME part of this tutorial. What Fraunhofer >excels in is low bitrate encoding. At bitrates of 128 kbit/s and lower >no other encoder can beat Fraunhofer. However, our goal is creating >high bitrate (thus higher quality) MP3 files." No conflict, because (although I didn't make it clear) I was talking about net-standard 128k files, which are what one posts on one's site. If you have the storage and bandwidth for 256k or VBR files, then LAME may well be better. The site to which Dave posted a link makes a very good case for it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:20:25 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 03:44 PM, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > No conflict, because (although I didn't make it clear) I was talking > about > net-standard 128k files, which are what one posts on one's site. If you > have the > storage and bandwidth for 256k or VBR files, then LAME may well be > better. The > site to which Dave posted a link makes a very good case for it. This is a very important distinction -- the mission of the r3mix site is to provide guidance for those using mp3 encoding as a way of backing up their CD collections. As such, they tend to err on the side of quality over minimal filesizes. Obviously, if you're encoding for your portable or for your internet stream or for track excerpts on an artist website, your priorities will be different. The alt-preset standard setting I recommended tends to work out to be about 192kbps, though since it's variable bitrate encoding sizes vary depending on content (interestingly enough, heavy metal requires a higher encoding rate, typically, than the most ornate chamber pop.) - -- Dave Walker freeform radio and live, nude fish at: http://www.freeke.org/ffg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:36:15 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Mason" > They are. One of my jobs when I worked for my dad's stores as a kid was > sitting in the stockroom with a box cutter and a shopping cart filled with > paperbacks, slicing off the covers, which were rubber-banded together and > sent back to the book wholesaler, and feeding the books themselves into the > incinerator. I think it's done mostly to save on shipping costs. oh my god. this makes me want to cry. it's no surprise, really, but i'm something of a bibliophile (my mom's a librarian and i got the bug) and it just breaks my heart to think that, trashy or good, someone who can't afford to buy a book and maybe can't get to a library or can't get a library card (for which you need an ID) could be reading those incinerated books. they could be distributed to school libraries, regular libraries, etc., both of which can raise money from used book sales if they don't want to keep the book. i understand why they do this, sort of, but it just seems horribly wrong. - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:58:58 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: [loud-fans] mea culpa, imperial teen (ns) There is one thing worse than people who whine about high CD prices, and that's people who respond on list to off list posts. I can only blame myself for using Juno Web, which is always a problem as it works differently than the regular Juno program. My apologies to Aaron. Re: unity and love. It's now official that the Village Voice, the New York Press, Shari and I all agree that "On" by Imperial Teen is really great. I say "it connects the dots between Neu, Unrest and the B-52s." Suffice it to say that the NY Press hates the Village Voice's guts, and that Shari's favorite musician of all time is Howard Jones, and you get an idea of the magnitude of this event. Run right out and buy/steal/encode/acquire a promo copy of it, as appropriate. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:10:20 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks At 01:36 PM 8/14/02 -0700, me wrote: >oh my god. this makes me want to cry. it's no surprise, really, but i'm >something of a bibliophile (my mom's a librarian and i got the bug) and it >just breaks my heart to think that, trashy or good, someone who can't afford >to buy a book and maybe can't get to a library or can't get a library card >(for which you need an ID) could be reading those incinerated books. they >could be distributed to school libraries, regular libraries, etc., both of >which can raise money from used book sales if they don't want to keep the >book. i understand why they do this, sort of, but it just seems horribly >wrong. We (i.e. Books & Co). never incinerated them--we would often leave the stripped paperbacks out where anyone who wanted could pick them up. And Brianna, I understand to a point your horror, but remember that we're talking about mass market books here--none of them shining examples of the bookbinder's or designer's art to begin with, and most of them no great shakes as lit. anyway. Any library which accepted stripped books to be put in its collection would have to go to the expense of binding them--you can't circulate material that doesn't have a cover, for obvious preservational reasons--and by the time you spend that much money, you may as well have bought the trade hardcover edition. Money raised by the sale of strips would be minimal, I'd guess, since most library booksales can't muster over 50 cents or so on intact mass-markets. And to be completely jaded about it, it's hard for me to get excited about the destruction of 50 unsellable copies of a Tom Clancy or John Sanford novel... Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle. The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Second Book of Samuel_, chapter 11, verse 15 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:25:17 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Weber" > We (i.e. Books & Co). never incinerated them--we would often leave the > stripped paperbacks out where anyone who wanted could pick them up. yeah, i figured that was not a rule. but why not leave the covers on and take them to a neighborhood that could use more books? then you could strip the ones that weren't claimed and do whatever with them. i know - i'm being a ridiculous optimist. but wouldn't it be nice if that could happen? (my mom also drove a bookmobile to underprivileged neighborhoods) - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:31:26 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Stretch Princess I'm *really* loving this Stretch Princess album. The unexpected singular at the end of "I just want a boyfriend with a brain cell" has to be one of my favorite lines all year. My current front-runner for album of the year, however, is _Sharon Stones_, the debut by Japanese singer Amano Tsukiko, which there is approximately 0% chance of anybody in the English-speaking world coming across by accident. There are some (low-fidelity) sound clips at http://www.otokura.com/download/indexamano.html, if you're interested. No need to understand the language, just click on the big ">>>" buttons by each little picture, and then the big "DOWNLOAD" buttons on the subsequent pages. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:38:07 -0400 From: "moxie" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux I thought I sent a message on the stripping and disposal of books back around noon EDT today, but stupid mail2web.com must have incinerated it. If it ever shows up, my apologies for repetition. Stewart's right about the shipping savings being the reason for booksellers to strip and destroy unsold paperbacks (and magazines). Might as well pulp 'em on site rather than put them in a big heavy box and let a shipper get rich so the distributor can pulp 'em. I worked in a chain bookstore, which shall remain nameless, many years ago and we sent back the covers and tossed the books in the dumpster. I don't know if we had contracts with distributors that vouchsafed we destroyed the stripped books. We didn't destroy them, technically. Dumpster divers may want to check out your neighborhood mega-bookstore. You never know. Brianna, I feel for you. I HATED stripping books and throwing them out. Even though they were primarily mass-market series romances and other drivel, they were still books, dammit. I always wished so damn many hadn't gotten printed to begin with, so we wouldn't have the sorrow of tossing them in the trash. Books are quasi-sacred objects, man. That said, I see Matthew beat me to the point that school libraries and anywhere else wouldn't have much need for the dime novels and last-week's magazines that typically receive this treatment. If the book had any value, it got sold. There's a case for bundling the stripped paperbacks up and giving them to shelters, free stores, prisons, etc., where there might be an audience. But then, enough well- intentioned souls have enough bags of books from their personal libraries to give away, books with intact covers and everything, that could go to those agencies instead. Those books among my library's discards that are too doggy for the Friends of the Library dollar booksale (several-year-old price guides, superceded tecnical manuals, etc.) generally go into the dumpster in the parking lot. Your tax dollars at work (if you live in Ohio). I can never bear to watch, even with books that are no good to anyone anywhere. They could at LEAST serve as footstools, or mulch or something. janet > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stewart Mason" > > > They are. One of my jobs when I worked for my dad's stores as a kid was > > sitting in the stockroom with a box cutter and a shopping cart filled with > > paperbacks, slicing off the covers, which were rubber-banded together and > > sent back to the book wholesaler, and feeding the books themselves into > the > > incinerator. I think it's done mostly to save on shipping costs. > > oh my god. this makes me want to cry. it's no surprise, really, but i'm > something of a bibliophile (my mom's a librarian and i got the bug) and it > just breaks my heart to think that, trashy or good, someone who can't afford > to buy a book and maybe can't get to a library or can't get a library card > (for which you need an ID) could be reading those incinerated books. they > could be distributed to school libraries, regular libraries, etc., both of > which can raise money from used book sales if they don't want to keep the > book. i understand why they do this, sort of, but it just seems horribly > wrong. > > -- > "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." > -- > > - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:41:00 -0400 From: "moxie" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks Brianna asks: > but why not leave the covers on and > take them to a neighborhood that could use more books The stripped covers are what get returned to the book distributor so the bookseller can get credit for the returns. If the books are distributed elsewhere, the bookstore eats the wholesale price. Civic- minded booksellers looking for goodwill points are welcome to take your advice, Brianna. janet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:45:48 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: [loud-fans] Spoon? New Spoon released next Tuesday - anybody heard it yet and care to comment? Misheard lyric from IQ's Subterranea, played earlier today: "I am the lathering agent of Death". Russ np: Kevin Gilbert, The Shaming of the True ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:53:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Tveite Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Spoon? On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > New Spoon released next Tuesday - anybody heard it yet and > care to comment? No, but I'm looking forward to it. They have tour dates posted to their website already: http://www.spoontheband.com/ The album is called Kill the Moonlight. The site says that Merge is getting ready to rerelease their very cool 1998 album, A Series of Sneaks, with at least a couple of bonus tracks from a single they released on a small label I can't remember the name of - -- something with "Saddle" in it, I think. Anyway, both those songs are good. They both have the name "Laffitte" in their titles, referring to the major label rep who screwed them over. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:19:27 +0100 From: "md.robbins" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Matthew Sweet/early albums I just caught Phil Gerrard's mail on these so I thought I'd add my own two penneth - While I'd warn anyone off the 'Inside' album, which is uniformly DIRE, 'Earth', has 2 really strong tracks hidden amongst the genuinely inconsequential remainder, namely 'Easy' with a divine Lloyd gtr solo and 'Wind And Sun', another fab song with Sweet himself playing great lead gtr. Verging toward an AOR production/feel but worth buying the CD for those alone once you get the Sweet taste. (Oh God..) Don't know about anyone else but I now expect at least a handful of inexplicably inferior tracks on MS albums, redeemed by the killers. I too would heartily recommend the Japanese '100%Fun' - the 2 extra tracks are easily amongst the best even on such a strong album. I was really disappointed with 'In Reverse' - against the general consensus too many curiously weak songs to my ear no matter how often I try to 'play it in' with the vaunted big production sound thereby rendered irrelevant. md np- a selection of mid/later 70s 'rocking' Stones stuff that suddenly sounds alright now. It didn't at the time though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Spoon? On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Jon Tveite wrote: > The site says that Merge is getting ready to rerelease their very cool > 1998 album, A Series of Sneaks, with at least a couple of bonus tracks > from a single they released on a small label I can't remember the name of > -- something with "Saddle" in it, I think. Oyez! That's Saddle Creek, home to The Faint and Now It's Overhead and Bright Eyes, and occasional host to Lullaby For The Working Class and Azure Ray, among others. They've put out some dross, but stunningly little considering the variety of styles their bands have pulled off. Lots of free songs (mp3 and realaudio) at www.saddle-creek.com. The new Bright Eyes is pretty good -- it's long and all over the place, though. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:57:48 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] stripping mass market paperbacks Matthew Weber wrote: > > And Brianna, I understand to a point your horror, but remember that we're > talking about mass market books here--none of them shining examples of the > bookbinder's or designer's art to begin with, and most of them no great > shakes as lit. anyway. Any library which accepted stripped books to be put > in its collection would have to go to the expense of binding them--you > can't circulate material that doesn't have a cover, for obvious > preservational reasons--and by the time you spend that much money, you may > as well have bought the trade hardcover edition. Money raised by the sale > of strips would be minimal, I'd guess, since most library booksales can't > muster over 50 cents or so on intact mass-markets. > > And to be completely jaded about it, it's hard for me to get excited about > the destruction of 50 unsellable copies of a Tom Clancy or John Sanford > novel... Regardless of quality or unsaleability, the truly horrifying aspect of this is the waste of so much paper. In a world increasingly stripped of its trees and poisoned by paper manufacturing, it seems that these items should be recycled. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:29:04 +0100 From: Phil Gerrard Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Matthew Sweet/early albums md wrote - >np- a selection of mid/later 70s 'rocking' Stones stuff that suddenly >sounds alright now. It didn't at the time though. Which stuff in particular? Certainly the Stones have outstayed their welcome back over the last five years or so, but I still think there's a lot from their mid-70s albums even up to 'Voodoo Lounge' which would make a damn good mix tape - phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Spoon? On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Aaron Mandel wrote: > The new Bright Eyes is pretty good -- it's long and all over the place, > though. gee, that's a switch. i'm reversing my earlier opinion: song by song, "beast" trumps "fun." "beast" really falls off in the second half, though, while "fun" ends with the killer "smog moon." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:30:22 -0700 From: "me" Subject: [loud-fans] neobuckwheatskin possibly the oddest combination of albums on the same page: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/09.25.97/audiofile-9739.html unless you think about it from a 'fun music' point of view. (link is 2 very brief reviews of 2 very different albums) - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:11:00 -0700 From: "me" Subject: [loud-fans] MS Word and its infinite wisdom stupid microshaft trick of the day: in a word doc, i wrote: What validation are we required to have in order to make changes to a customer's account/domain? it want me to change it to: What validation is we required having in order to make changes to a customer 's account/domain? music content: my boss just introduced me to the Mentors. i'm not sure what to think. info on them here: http://store.artistdirect.com/store/artist/album/0,,344100,00.html b - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:33:06 -0400 From: "Vallor" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] (jg/er/ue/aa/zz/ee/uy/ue/nx/or/uu/wg/uu/fu) > Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > > So how come no one's talking about John Cage's publishing company suing > > that guy for ripping off 4'33"? > > Wouldn't be the first time someone threatened to sue over nothing. > > Jen Allow me, I know little of the case 'cept it was mentioned on another list, but I know plenty about Cage. As I understand it, the issue is not that the individual being sued was issuing a silent recording but rather that he was crediting the track as a compositional collaboration between himself and Cage. He's some po-mo goofball who hasn't a clue what the piece was about in the first place. What was the piece about in the first place? It was only partly about the silence (as to a smaller extent is most music)...it was mostly about the ambience of a concert hall (or where ever the piece was played) and the natural "music" of the objects and people and the room. Call it crap if you think so, Cage didn't really believe in silence...he believed in the music of your own blood et al running through you or the woods or really any natural sound. And while Brian Eno is credited with the whole ambient music thing, he openly admits lifting the concept from that era of Cage. Off that topic...I asked a month or so ago if anyone had a copy of the Smile Beach Boys CD boot they'd consider copying for me and swaping for something...I got no bites. Anyone? Been reading the Look Listen Vibrate Smile book and have only bits and pieces to reference. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:55:00 -0400 From: Carolyn Dorsey Subject: [loud-fans] LF airplay Ritual to Romance got some airplay for what it's worth here http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/4676 Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:10:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Stewart Mason wrote: > Stewart, wishing that he had received a disc, a tape, a broken 78, > *anything*, in the last several LoudSwaps Hello. Swapmaster Jeff here. Look: if you're in the noise swap, you send out noise. If you can't do so within a reasonable amount of time (say, within two months), you let your recipient know what's what. If you can't do that, you let *me* know that you can't participate. Pretending to participate and not letting me know that you're not bothering to actually do so pisses me off. I really shouldn't have to remove people's names from the swap list at my own say-so, because they've apparently disappeared from the face of the earth. (My apologies if you actually *have* disappeared from the face of the earth, or are in a coma, etc. But most of us have a friend or two who would notify the list of such dire circumstances, so I'm betting that's not the case.) Oh - to the rest of you: if you want in on the swap, let me know. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Some see things as they are, and say "Why?" ::Some see things as they could be, and say "Why not?" ::Some see things that aren't there, and say "Huh?" last played: bootleg CD of Beatles Esher Tapes (White Album acoustic demos) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:16:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 mbowen@frontiernet.net wrote: > The Moles - "What's The New Mary Jane": Is this the unreleased > Lennon/McCartney song? Anyway, the most interesting thing about this song is > the odd, bagpipey horn (with strings? organ?) texture that pops up a few > times - it reminds me of some of my old Mike Oldfield records. 'Tain't unreleased anymore - it's on one of the _Anthology_ CDs. > The Replacements - "Can't Hardly Wait": The other track I already own. One > of my favorite bands of all time paying homage to the Box Tops. Okay, here's a minor gripe - there's no legal or ethical issues involved, or much about income, but a gripe it is nevertheless: the cliche about how putting strings on your record is the sine qua non of "selling out" or being egregiously commercial. Bullshit. Putting stupid, lame-ass horns on your record is way worse. Horns are good either as jazz horns or (sometimes) marching band/circus/Salvation Army type things (Elephant 6, those odd horns in "Jug Band Blues"). And of course, there are good soul-influenced horn parts...but too often (as on the 'Mats track) that style is slathered on in th emost uninspired, Phil Collins-esque manner. > Gryphon - "Opening Move": I'm an old prog-rocker; in fact, "Supper's Ready" > came up on the mp3-o-rama as I was typing this. This is a little like the > Seventh Wife of Henry VIII. Unlike Wakeman, these guys didn't bother to > write hooks, though. Hey - one guy in this band (I think the krumhorn player) went on to become a major player in the whole "early music" thingy: Philip Pickett. Sackbut! Sackbut! Flange! - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::crumple zones:::::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::::small-craft warning:: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:19:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 mbowen@frontiernet.net wrote: > > > The Moles - "What's The New Mary Jane": Is this the unreleased > > Lennon/McCartney song? Anyway, the most interesting thing about this song is > > the odd, bagpipey horn (with strings? organ?) texture that pops up a few > > times - it reminds me of some of my old Mike Oldfield records. > 'Tain't unreleased anymore - it's on one of the _Anthology_ CDs. It's also not the same song. The Moles' song is not The Beatles' song. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:24:22 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review At Wednesday 8/14/2002 11:16 PM -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Horns are good either as jazz horns or (sometimes) marching >band/circus/Salvation Army type things (Elephant 6, those odd horns in >"Jug Band Blues"). And of course, there are good soul-influenced horn >parts...but too often (as on the 'Mats track) that style is slathered on >in th emost uninspired, Phil Collins-esque manner. How do you feel about I Held Her In My Arms? Consider your answer very carefully. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:24:51 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review At 11:16 PM 8/14/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 mbowen@frontiernet.net wrote: > >> The Moles - "What's The New Mary Jane": Is this the unreleased >> Lennon/McCartney song? Anyway, the most interesting thing about this song is >> the odd, bagpipey horn (with strings? organ?) texture that pops up a few >> times - it reminds me of some of my old Mike Oldfield records. > >'Tain't unreleased anymore - it's on one of the _Anthology_ CDs. And nope, 'tis a Richard Davies original that nicks its title from the Beatles track. > >> The Replacements - "Can't Hardly Wait": The other track I already own. One >> of my favorite bands of all time paying homage to the Box Tops. > >Okay, here's a minor gripe - there's no legal or ethical issues involved, >or much about income, but a gripe it is nevertheless: the cliche about how >putting strings on your record is the sine qua non of "selling out" or >being egregiously commercial. Bullshit. Putting stupid, lame-ass horns on >your record is way worse. > >Horns are good either as jazz horns or (sometimes) marching >band/circus/Salvation Army type things (Elephant 6, those odd horns in >"Jug Band Blues"). And of course, there are good soul-influenced horn >parts...but too often (as on the 'Mats track) that style is slathered on >in th emost uninspired, Phil Collins-esque manner. Hm. I can nominate songs with that particular flaw -- Too Much Joy's "Sandbox" leaps immediately to mind -- but no, I agree with Michael Bowen: it sounds to me like the horns (and strings, don't forget the strings!) on "Can't Hardly Wait" are a direct homage to Alex Chilton's blue-eyed soul days in the Box Tops. It sounds just like that sort of arrangement, which producer Jim Dickenson was certainly entirely aware of, and I tend to believe that was their intention. S ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:39:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] (jg/er/ue/aa/zz/ee/uy/ue/nx/or/uu/wg/uu/fu) On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Vallor wrote: > > Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > > > > So how come no one's talking about John Cage's publishing company suing > > > that guy for ripping off 4'33"? > > Allow me, I know little of the case 'cept it was mentioned on another list, > but I know plenty about Cage. As I understand it, the issue is not that the > individual being sued was issuing a silent recording but rather that he was > crediting the track as a compositional collaboration between himself and > Cage. He's some po-mo goofball who hasn't a clue what the piece was about in > the first place. Well, I don't know that he doesn't - in my memory at least, the article where I read about hte whole thing suggested the guy knew the point wasn't silence per se. He also made the laughable yet chutzpah-laden attempt to claim that the "Cage" co-writing credit wasn't "John Cage," but "Clint Cage," supposedly his own alter ego. (Incidentally, the Google search results for "Clint Cage" are pretty amusing...) I think it's pretty ridiculous (and un-Cagelike) for Boosey & Hawkes to sue the guy - I mean, geez, how is the joke affecting the sales, income, reputation, or anything of the actual Cage composition? If he weren't dead, I think Cage would be laughing too, at the attempts of people to make some ponderous seriosity out of 4'33" - not that it was a joke, but Cage also had a sublime sense of humor. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of my leg:: __Hemlock Stones__ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #280 *******************************