From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #279 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Wednesday, August 14 2002 Volume 02 : Number 279 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] You're not a hypocrite, but you might be a cheapskate (ns) [jenny grover ] Re: [loud-fans] Sweet [JRT456@aol.com] [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux [dmw ] [loud-fans] correcting myself before you do? [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] LASIK (rs) [Roger Winston ] Re: [loud-fans] You may be bankrupt, but you get to keep your tv (ns) [zk] [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos ["Keegstra, Russell" ] Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos [] Re: [loud-fans] Stretch Princess ["jer fairall" ] Re: [loud-fans] Donnie Darko ["jer fairall" ] Re: [loud-fans] critical hippos on skates [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux ["John Swartzentruber" ] Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review [Stewart Mason ] [loud-fans] Re: oh OK release date [Boyof100lists@aol.com] Re: [loud-fans] A shot in the dark... [Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] You're not a hypocrite, but you might be a cheapskate (ns) Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > (Cue the discussion on "how to > remove the sticky residue" now. From jewelboxes.) Stick-ease or De-Solv-It. They are citrus oil based cleaners, no petroleum solvents to melt plastics. The latter is available at Walmart, and probably other retail outlets. The former I mail-ordered from Miles Kimball, I believe. A small amount removes even nasty price tags, but does leave behind an oily residue. This can be washed off with dish detergent or, if it's not a lot of oil, some Windex. You can use this to remove stickers from CD booklets and artwork, as well, if you are careful. Obviously, you don't want to use dish detergent afterwards in that case, but you can use a small amount of Windex on a paper towel. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 03:37:43 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] (jg/er/ue/aa/zz/ee/uy/ue/nx/or/uu/wg/uu/fu) Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > So how come no one's talking about John Cage's publishing company suing > that guy for ripping off 4'33"? Wouldn't be the first time someone threatened to sue over nothing. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:36:20 +0100 From: "Ian Runeckles & Angela Bennett" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Sweet Stewart says: > I also vote for 100% FUN as my fave, with GIRLFRIEND, SON OF > ALTERED BEAST, ALTERED BEAST and BLUE SKY ON MARS as runners > up. I've still never bothered to pick up IN REVERSE, Weighing in a little late on the Sweet thread - Stewart, I'd definitely pick up IN REVERSE if you see it around, personally it's my favourite of all his albums (closely followed by GIRLFRIEND), although I never bothered to pick up BLUE SKY. One that hasn't been mentioned is the boot GOODFRIENDS - I think there are a couple of versions of this around, mine is on a weird Luxembourg label - the cover is a pastiche of Neil Young's ZUMA and Matthew covers a couple of Young's tunes on it. It's mainly demos for GIRLFRIEND and the stripped down approach really works on a number of tracks, for me at least. In fact, one of the reasons why ALTERED and 100% don't hit the mark for me is the production and the overall muddiness - I listened to 100% yesterday and really wanted to remix it - or even hear an acoustic version of the album. And much as I love Velvet Crush, I couldn't help wanting Ric Menck to lighten up a little. That said IN REVERSE is *hugely* produced - maybe the songs are just better or emotionally more appealing - If Time Permits is a real tearjerker. Ian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 03:51:46 -0400 From: jenny grover Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Am I a Hypocrite? Michael Mitton wrote: > > Apparently, auction sites including eBay > prohibit selling promotional CDs in their user agreements--no word on > whether that's enforced. (I never found this in eBay's policies, but I > did find it for Cnet auctions). eBay says that selling promotional items "may" be illegal, and kind of pushes the responsibility for knowing whether or not it is in a particular case onto the seller. There have been cases of promos being pulled and lawsuits threatened, but in the cases that I know of, these involved pre-releases being auctioned before the album release date, and the actions were taken because a complaint was filed. In at least one of these cases, the complaint was filed by an angry fan, who notified both eBay and the record label. So, chances are slim you will get busted on eBay for selling a promo of something that has already been officially released. Jen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:04:56 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Sweet In a message dated 8/14/02 12:38:31 AM, angela_and_ian@forestrd.ftech.co.uk writes: << One that hasn't been mentioned is the boot GOODFRIENDS - I think there are a couple of versions of this around, mine is on a weird Luxembourg label - the cover is a pastiche of Neil Young's ZUMA and Matthew covers a couple of Young's tunes on it. It's mainly demos for GIRLFRIEND and the stripped down approach really works on a number of tracks, for me at least. >> That (or at least one version) was originally released as a promo-only CD by the label, although anyone interested in owning a copy has to consider whether it's more moral to buy a bootleg or a promo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:48:58 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Michael Mitton wrote: > So I spent an hour trying to figure out whether it was legal to buy and > sell these damn promotional CDs. And the internet consensus seems to have > two parts: 1) It is definitely legal to buy and sell promotional CDs; 2) > It is definitely illegal to buy and sell promotional CDs. I never did > find a reputable website that talked about this issue, but there were > plenty of non-reputable on both sides of the fence. good god man, have ye nae had enough!? i'll say this again, because i think this is the best answer you're going to get. i am not a lawyer, but this very question came up on a mailing list where a great many people are lawers. the prevailing thought seemed to be that the promotional notices on cds *probably* would not be upheld as binding if a case went to trial; obviously, however, this would depend on the court and the circumstances of the case. it was suggested that the lack of significant legal precedent is a result of combinations of one or more factors, such as: lack of certainty on the part of either a specific label or the RIAA that the court decision would be favorable; poor perceived cost-benefit ratio of legal action; lack of concern on the part of specific labels or the RIAA about promo sales in general; concern about possible public relations impact. i don't know if legal precedents have been established for stripped books. i would expect any stripped-book decisions to have a great deal of bearing on promo CD decisions. further: i have direct first-hand knowledge of indie labels, promoters, and individual artists seizing their own releases from second-hand stores. i have heard only vague anecdotes about second hand shops getting "busted" for promos as they do for bootlegs. one might think someone would have done that to, say, amoeba, a long time since if there were a credible threat. apropos of nothing much, my favorite part of the recent congressional hearings was how flustered the RIAA reps were when Congresspeople asked why sale accounting couldn't be determined by simple metrics like "#copies shipped - #copies returned." the RIAA seems to have convinced a number of lawmakers that recording industry standard practice includes contractual provisions that would be tolerated in no other industry -- but of course, their accounting irregularities are small peanuts compared to some others recently aired. i recently read a very compelling argument in favor of strong secondary marketplaces. the fundamental notion is that they keep things which may not be in vouge (and therefore not profitable to keep in print) in circulation, where they enrich the cultural atmosphere, can influence other artists, etc. ...i should probably have a position paper online somewhere, but for the record, and for the benefit of any new folks in doubt about my biases, i remain: pro-copyright; pro-fair use doctrine and preservation of fair use access; pro-intellectual property law reform; anti-copyright term extensions (pro term reductions); anti-DCMA S.1201 (the anti-circumvention provision); anti-DRM schema that restrict the movement or playback of copyrighted material (not necessarily opposed to those that merely track); vehemently opposed to audible watermarking; pro-recording-industry-contract reform; anti-"independent promoter"; pro-indie artist/anti-"gatekeeper"; anti-unduly burdensome performance royalty requirements for streaming web delivery; profoundly unsatisfied by 128K mp3 audio quality. uh, yeah. my story, to which i stick. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:01:34 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: [loud-fans] correcting myself before you do? On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, dmw wrote: > it was suggested that the lack of significant legal precedent is a result > of combinations of one or more factors, such as: lack of certainty on the still looking for the perfect case to try should be on this list, too. > apropos of nothing much, my favorite part of the recent congressional > hearings was how flustered the RIAA reps were when Congresspeople asked i don't mean to imply i attended the hearings myself; i didn't. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 07:12:06 -0600 From: Roger Winston Subject: Re: [loud-fans] LASIK (rs) At Wednesday 8/14/2002 01:08 AM -0400, Stewart Mason wrote: >Well, you should at least give it a scrub before you start trolling for >hookers on Colfax -- that's just plain courtesy. Hey, didn't you read my original post? I said *high-class* hookers! Colfax is right out, man. Latre. --Rog ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:00:04 -0500 From: zkk46@ttacs.ttu.edu Subject: Re: [loud-fans] You may be bankrupt, but you get to keep your tv (ns) Quoting Dana Paoli : > Since even the poorest of the poor usually have a tv, >all the starving loud-fans sitting in their shotgun shacks and drinking hooch..... I'm not really poor, and rather than "cheapskate", I prefer to be called "thrifty", (that is how you get rich in the first place), but all that aside, the suggestion above sounds like 100% fun. It may be 9:00 am, but I'm off to the hooch store and then to either the back of Best Buy or to one of those portable shed places to buy a shotgun shack. No need to waste $$ on a tv, I probably won't be able to see by the time those shows come on tonight. np: some backwoods country drinkin' music, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:12:04 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos > (Cue the discussion on "how to > remove the sticky residue" now. From jewelboxes.) My favorite method is to use the sticker itself -- restick part of it over the stuff you want to remove, then rip it off like a bandage. Much of the sticky will come off with the sticker, although you may need to repeat the process several times to get it all. I've had really good luck with this approach. doug writes: >pro-copyright; pro-fair use doctrine and preservation of fair >use access; >...etc... to which I agree on each and every count. Let me point out that the American Publishers Association in 1903 tried to put a notice in books that indicated you weren't buying the book, you were licensing it. By the terms of the license you couldn't resell the book. The Supreme Court ended this practice. Current issues: UCITA, DMCA issues, DeCSS and the DVD anti-trust issues it points up, and various other issues that relate to how much control copyright holders can exert over how purchasers of copyrighted material can use them -- all of these are going to have to be settled in court, I'm sure. I expect it will take quite a while. That said, I don't like promo CDs because of the big gold stamp, but if it's the only way I can get an OOP CD... ...and used CDs, like used cars -- no need to weep for GM, they already made their money on it. The artist has already seen the royalties for that copy, by selling a used CD you are giving up any right to that material. The only copyright issue involved is if you make a copy before you sell it. The IBM PC is old enough to drink today, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:16:04 +0000 From: Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos > > (Cue the discussion on "how to > > remove the sticky residue" now. From jewelboxes.) > > My favorite method is to use the sticker itself -- restick part > of it over the stuff you want to remove, then rip it off like a > bandage. Much of the sticky will come off with the sticker, > although you may need to repeat the process several times to get > it all. I've had really good luck with this approach. About ten years ago a record store clerk showed me how to use lighter fuel to remove sticker and residue in one easy move, and I've used that method ever since... phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:44:39 -0400 From: "jer fairall" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Stretch Princess > Psst, Jer, how great is this?! It's like an upbeat Sleeper album! It just arrived in my mailbox, actually (I traded Andrea a copy of the new Emm Gryner for it--thanks Andrea!!). After one listen, it reminds me much more of Nina Gordon's TONIGHT AND THE REST OF MY LIFE than their own first album and while it sounds nice enough, it didn't immediately grab me like the debut did. But ask me again in about a week or so. Jer Help Save the Tongass National Forests! Help Today: http://www.care2.com/go/z/2394 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:02:03 -0400 From: "jer fairall" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Donnie Darko > Anybody know anything about the guy who same the theme song? His name is Gary Jules and he has a band called Elgin Park, whom I've never heard. The song "Mad World," is a Tears for Fears cover and it's on their debut album THE HURTING. The cover, as far as I know, is only available on the film's soundtrack which otherwise consists of Michael Andrews' haunting musical score. There is, unfortunately, no soundtrack of the songs from the film, but that shouldn't stop you from putting together one of your own (most of the songs, after all, are widely available elsewhere). Btw, the soundtrack and Elgin Park album are both available at www.enjoy-records.com Jer Help Save the Tongass National Forests! Help Today: http://www.care2.com/go/z/2394 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:41:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] critical hippos on skates On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Bill Silvers wrote: > >I was in a Barnes and Nobles last week. You scan it but it only plays about > >20 seconds of the song. And some songs play the middle sections of the song > >and not the introduction. Many cds in the Barnes and Nobles in NY are 18-19 > >dollars. > > > >Carolyn > > But hey, they've got the same scanning device in Walmart, and the CD's > there are more in the 14-15 dollar range. I wouldn't buy from Wal-Mart regardless of price. We all pay more in the long run if we do. But like most big retail chains, B&N overcharges (by which I mean simply: you can get the CDs for less elsewhere). - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::This is America. People do whatever the fuck they feel like doing.... ::As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. __Neal Stephenson, SNOW CRASH__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:52:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] sticky residue on the newts we got On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, jenny grover wrote: > > remove the sticky residue" now. From jewelboxes.) > > Stick-ease or De-Solv-It. They are citrus oil based cleaners, no > petroleum solvents to melt plastics. I've found that (1st) WD-40 (2nd) rubbing alcohol works well, with paper towel to dry any remaining grut. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::[clever or pithy quote]:: __[source of quote]__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:54:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, dmw wrote: > further: i have direct first-hand knowledge of indie labels, promoters, > and individual artists seizing their own releases from second-hand stores. > i have heard only vague anecdotes about second hand shops getting "busted" > for promos as they do for bootlegs. I've received a promo or two with a notice along the lines of: "if you see a copy of this promo in a used CD store, grab it and walk out the door: you have as much right to it as they do." I've never tested that advice, however... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"Shut up, you truculent lout, and let the cute little pixie sing!":: np: Neutral Milk Hotel _Avery Island_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:55:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] You may be bankrupt, but you get to keep your tv On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 zkk46@ttacs.ttu.edu wrote: > I'm not really poor, and rather than "cheapskate", I > prefer to be called "thrifty", (that is how you get > rich in the first place) Actually the best and most common way to get rich in the first place is to have rich parents. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::American people like their politics like Pez - small, sweet, and ::coming out of a funny plastic head. __Dennis Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:17:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > I've received a promo or two with a notice along the lines of: "if you > see a copy of this promo in a used CD store, grab it and walk out the > door: you have as much right to it as they do." I've seen those promos, but never in stores. So maybe it's working. How on earth can shrinkwrap licenses be legal, but not a big bold "NOT FOR RESALE" on the front of a promo? Actually, wait, most promos are sent out unsolicited. So shrinkwrap licenses are not a good analogy (nor are stripped books, I don't think -- the wholesaler has entered into some kind of contract there, and may be explicitly affirming that the stripped books have been destroyed when the covers are sent back). a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:27:55 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Keegstra, Russell wrote: > ...and used CDs, like used cars -- no need to weep for GM, they > already made their money on it. The artist has already seen the > royalties for that copy, by selling a used CD you are giving up ...unless it was a promo, on which the artist wasn't paid royalties to start with, although the artist, not the label, bears the cost of its production. if you buy a used promo vs. a new CD, you really are depriving the artist of his/her hypothetical twelve cents, or whatever it works out to. (yes i know, for some folks it works out to roughly a dollar.) sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. i'll go lurk, or unsubscribe, or something. we aren't going to sticker or id our promotional mailing copies. when you see us in the dollar bin, please rescue us with no pangs. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:29:07 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux At 12:17 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, Aaron Mandel wrote: >How on earth can shrinkwrap licenses be legal, but not a big bold "NOT FOR >RESALE" on the front of a promo? Actually, wait, most promos are sent out >unsolicited. So shrinkwrap licenses are not a good analogy (nor are >stripped books, I don't think -- the wholesaler has entered into some kind >of contract there, and may be explicitly affirming that the stripped books >have been destroyed when the covers are sent back). They are. One of my jobs when I worked for my dad's stores as a kid was sitting in the stockroom with a box cutter and a shopping cart filled with paperbacks, slicing off the covers, which were rubber-banded together and sent back to the book wholesaler, and feeding the books themselves into the incinerator. I think it's done mostly to save on shipping costs. S ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:31:34 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] hypocrisy redux On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:17:50 -0400 (EDT), Aaron Mandel wrote: >How on earth can shrinkwrap licenses be legal, but not a big bold "NOT FOR >RESALE" on the front of a promo? Actually, wait, most promos are sent out >unsolicited. So shrinkwrap licenses are not a good analogy I just read a column yesterday about shrinkwrap licenses on unsolicited books, so maybe the analogy is more apt than you think. http://makeashorterlink.com/?H39B15481 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:40:01 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] You're not a hypocrite, but it's a complicated ethi cal matter Yes, that last sentence sounds very thoughtful and reasonable. Except that your response is only to rag on people for willful denial of the obvious fact that your opinions are correct. This tactic works okay for churches and maybe parents, but I don't know what you expect to get out of it dealing with complicated ethical matters in online discussions. >>>>>>>>>>>> Complicated ethical matters, huh. Aaron, what else do you consider a complicated ethical matter? Oh, wait, I forgot: smoking pot and skateboarding on the emergency room ramp by twelve-year-olds. It's a pity that liberals and democrats keep fighting over insignificant things like abortion and war, when there are much bigger fish to fry. Look, I'll be charitable. Your final post will go unanswered, so make it a good one, and then we can all go on with our lives. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Promotional Solvents On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, jenny grover wrote: > Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > > (Cue the discussion on "how to > > remove the sticky residue" now. From jewelboxes.) > > Stick-ease or De-Solv-It. They are citrus oil based cleaners, no > petroleum solvents to melt plastics. I recommend Goo-Gone, available (I think) in most office supply stores. Also citrus-based (orange-smelling) and greasy, but it gets labels off very weel. I've even used it to remove a sticky label applied by accident to the playable side of a CD. The CD in question still plays fine. Caveat: it, like the other solvents mentioned, leaves a bit of grease behind that can then be wiped off or removed with Windex or somesuch. I'm not sure about the legality of sending out a promo, which is in effect a gift which requests a favor in return (airplay, review, etc.), and then claiming the person to whom you sent it doesn't have any rights connected to it. It's as if I sent a piece of mail to someone, but put him under legal threat if he recycled the papaer. Since almost all promos are sent unsolicited, I'd say they're covered by the "unsolicited mail" clause of postal regulations, i.e. all rights accrue to the receiver and the sender forfeits same. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:03:48 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Sticky Hyppos Are we all so into our computer layouts that nobody remembers Bestine? It's still the best that I've ever used for removing sticker residue, and one quart container can easily last for almost a decade. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:04:39 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too >i would MUCH rather have someone buy our record used than throw it in a >landfill. Yes... >pro-copyright; pro-fair use doctrine and preservation of fair use access; >pro-intellectual property law reform; anti-copyright term extensions (pro >term reductions); anti-DCMA S.1201 (the anti-circumvention provision); >anti-DRM schema that restrict the movement or playback of copyrighted >material (not necessarily opposed to those that merely track); vehemently >opposed to audible watermarking; pro-recording-industry-contract reform; >anti-"independent promoter"; pro-indie artist/anti-"gatekeeper"; >anti-unduly burdensome performance royalty requirements for streaming web >delivery; Yes... >profoundly unsatisfied by 128K mp3 audio quality. No. I think the ability to reduce the size of a song by 90%, make it immediately available worldwide with no distribution hassles, and still have it sound as good as a well-made cassette copy of a CD* is nothing short of miraculous. I've always wanted a way to give away my music without financial ruin, and now I have it. I would never pay for one, or consider it a replacement for a CD, but I don't consider that a failing of the medium, any more than I do of FM radio. *Caveat: to achieve this level of quality you need to have a good encoder and know how to use it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:05:53 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Donnie Darko >I just wanted to thank Glenn and whoever else recommended Donnie Darko. I second that emotion, and add YI YI to the mix. Netflix + loud-fan recommendations = viewing satisfaction. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:15:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] You're not a hypocrite, but it's a complicated ethi cal matter On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > Aaron, what else do you consider a complicated ethical matter? Oh, > wait, I forgot: smoking pot and skateboarding on the emergency room > ramp by twelve-year-olds. I tried to take this offlist and Dana responded to the list anyway (by accident, I assume, since it was his idea). But now I just have to ask... is there anyone else who interpreted what I said as meaning what Dana says above? The clarity of my writing definitely goes down when I'm annoyed, but I thought that message was pretty direct. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:23:43 -0400 From: mbowen@frontiernet.net Subject: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review Let me start off by apologizing for dragging the average income of the Loudlist down - I've been hovering around the federal poverty level for the last three years now, so I can't go out and spend fifteen or more dollars on a highly recommended CD that turns out to be absolute crap - or even one that turns out to be mildly pleasant, but not worth the money. Anyway, my fellow game-show winner Joe Mallon compiled a rather odd and sometimes quite interesting swap-disc, starting off with: Nanci Griffith - "From Clare To Here": Ralph McTell's ("Streets Of London") original version of this song got a moderate amount of airplay on the Fordham University folkie/AAA radio station that I often listen to in my car. It's one of those Irish-exile-in-America songs - I'm wondering if anyone is writing songs about these guys moving back to the Ould Sod now that they actually have a functioning economy over there. Anyway, I prefer Ralph's original; like a lot of Griffith's stuff, this is overproduced (dig those chimes that come in not once, but twice, during each chorus!) and overly-decorous. Stew - "Love Is Coming Through The Door": He got a half-page writeup in the Sunday NYTimes last week, so he's finally getting some mainstream attention. Good for him; I hope he gets Stephin Merritt's press agent. This is actually one of Stew's lesser songs - tuneful, pleasant, but not as interesting as his best material. Pink Floyd - "Wish You Were Here": One of two classi-crock faves on this swap. I never owned any Floyd stuff; since I was in high school/college in the mid-to-late 70s I didn't need to. I've listened to some of that era's stuff with fresh ears lately - it's actually quite a surprise to find out that "Layla and Other Love Songs" is a pretty good record. However, this isn't going to make me want to rush out and buy "Wish You Were Here". While the singing and songwriting is fairly strong and impassioned, the arrangement is draggy and devoid of any sonic interest. Jay Ungar & Molly Mason - "Roscoe's Waterfall" (from the "Brother's Keeper" soundtrack): A nice, fiddle-led slow air from my Hudson Valley homeboys, who are most famous for "Ashokan Farewell", used as the theme music for Ken Burns' Civil War documentary. Badly Drawn Boy - "The Shining": One of two tracks on this comp that I already own. I like this song with its simple arrangement, but the Avalanches remix version is absolutely wonderful. For those of you who don't have the moral fortitude to pay 12 bucks or more for the 4-track import single with the remixes, the Avalanches version is available for artist-authorized download at http://www.epitonic.com/artists/badlydrawnboy.html. Ant Farmers - "Earring": New to me, and one of the highlights of the disc. This reminds me more of a one-man operation than a real band (cf. Badly Drawn Boy), although I could be wrong. A good poppy number with a hint of tartness in the vocals. I like, and will try to find out more. China Crisis - "Strength Of Character": The British band from the early '80s. I listened to it for the fifth or sixth time a few minutes ago as I started typing up this review. I've forgotten it again. Vic Chesnutt - "We Should Be So Brave": Chesnutt thinks someone is pitying him, so he lashes out. Ooh, Vic, you're so mean! For a guy who's a paraplegic because he wrecked his car while driving drunk, he's awfully self-righteous. Depeche Mode - "Never Let Me Down Again": When I moved up to the NYC metro area back in the mid-'80s, I used to listen to the Long Island "New Music" station a lot. Depeche Mode was their favorite band, by far. Yeah, it was that bad. However, listening to this track, I was surprised at how great the music was. Dave Gahan is still a terrible vocalist and the lyrics are still uninteresting, but the backing track is really, really good. I wonder if I can get all-instrumental versions of their records. The Mighty Lemon Drops - "Out Of My Head" (extended version): See China Crisis. Stump - "Charlton Heston": I've heard this before, but I'm very glad to have it on CD. A loop of sampled frogs provides the rhythm track for a hilarious retelling of the Exodus myth. "Lights, camel, action!" The Doleful Lions - "The Rats Are Coming! The Werewolves Are Here!": The other discovery on this disc. I love, love, love the sound of the vocals on the repeated chorus/outro. Must find more. The Moles - "What's The New Mary Jane": Is this the unreleased Lennon/McCartney song? Anyway, the most interesting thing about this song is the odd, bagpipey horn (with strings? organ?) texture that pops up a few times - it reminds me of some of my old Mike Oldfield records. Brendan Benson - "Tiny Spark": This grabs me while it's on, but I don't remember much about it once it's over. The Replacements - "Can't Hardly Wait": The other track I already own. One of my favorite bands of all time paying homage to the Box Tops. Chicago - "Feelin' Stronger Every Day": Another blast from the past. Didn't like 'em then, don't like 'em now. Gryphon - "Opening Move": I'm an old prog-rocker; in fact, "Supper's Ready" came up on the mp3-o-rama as I was typing this. This is a little like the Seventh Wife of Henry VIII. Unlike Wakeman, these guys didn't bother to write hooks, though. Thanks for the interesting and enjoyable swap, Joe! MB np: "A Flower?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:27:28 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Satisfied, rosy too On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > >profoundly unsatisfied by 128K mp3 audio quality. > > No. I think the ability to reduce the size of a song by 90%, make it immediately > available worldwide with no distribution hassles, and still have it sound as > good as a well-made cassette copy of a CD* is nothing short of miraculous. I've > always wanted a way to give away my music without financial ruin, and now I have > it. okay, that part is pretty cool. hell, i think the ability to get almost-instant critiques on mixes and such is pretty flipping cool, too. > I would never pay for one, or consider it a replacement for a CD, but I don't > consider that a failing of the medium, any more than I do of FM radio. but that's the part that i'm railing against: the suggestion that an mp3 download *should* be considered a replacement for, or equal in value to, physical distribution of a higher fidelity recording. which you may not be suggesting, but which a lot of people assuredly are. > *Caveat: to achieve this level of quality you need to have a good encoder and > know how to use it. this is probably another thing i think maybe you should write a book about. (for those who don't know, Tim should write a book on how to get the most out of ProTools) - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:37:28 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review At 01:23 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, mbowen@frontiernet.net wrote: >Ant Farmers - "Earring": New to me, and one of the highlights of the disc. >This reminds me more of a one-man operation than a real band (cf. Badly >Drawn Boy), although I could be wrong. A good poppy number with a hint of >tartness in the vocals. I like, and will try to find out more. The Ant Farmers were a real band, just one that favored a really stripped-down sound. This is from their 1995 album BEAUTICIAN, my favorite of the three albums that managed to find release. There are literally dozens of brilliant Ant Farmers songs sitting in the can (I produced a few months' worth of sessions in 1998/99, almost all of them unfinished because the studio was condemned before we could overdub and mix them), but the band for all intents and purposes no longer exists, and the three members have no interest in pursuing music as anything more than an occasional hobby. It's really a shame, because I still believe that Carl Petersen is one of the great undiscovered songwriters of his generation. >The Doleful Lions - "The Rats Are Coming! The Werewolves Are Here!": The >other discovery on this disc. I love, love, love the sound of the vocals on >the repeated chorus/outro. Must find more. New album out now, OUT LIKE A LAMB, and it's my favorite of the four. MOTEL SWIM is awfully generic, and has only one really good song, and SONG CYCLOPS VOLUME ONE is just trying too hard to be lo-fi and freaky. THE RATS ARE COMING! THE WEREWOLVES ARE HERE!, however, is a gem. Stewart, wishing that he had received a disc, a tape, a broken 78, *anything*, in the last several LoudSwaps ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:43:36 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] new list rules In a message dated 8/14/02 12:03:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: > (rx) = hidden Rosicrucian content > This post was absolutely beautiful. Let me go dress up in drag, say "I love my life!" and give you the Loud-fan of the year award (it is a beautiful gilded plastic replica of Scott's head, with "the hair" faithfully reproduced by the Franklin mint). This was sheer comic perfection. I love this list. - -Mark Staples, who, when signing on, had exactly 125 list posts. Coincidence? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:51:17 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: [loud-fans] A shot in the dark... I'm sorry about the vagueness of this query, but I'm hoping someone here might be able to help... I'm thinking of a song, probably mid/late-80's vintage, that begins with the words "Before too long", with a sustain on the last word, a pause, and then a big drum snap. It settles into melodic jangle 80's college rock territory after that. It is _not_ the Donner Party song of that title, the AMG has proven pretty unhelpful, and I don't know enough details to make a Google search fruitful either. - -- Dave Walker freeform radio and live, nude fish at: http://www.freeke.org/ffg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:10:43 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Re: oh OK release date In a message dated 8/13/02 12:45:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Boyof100lists writes: > -Mark Staples, thinking you just don't hear enough majestic church organs in > pop songs these days After reading the liner sleeve of the "Arrive" reissue, I had no idea that the pipe organ in the song "Mrs. Green" wasn't really a pipe organ at all. It "was simply a preset on a Yamaha DX-7, with reverb added." Deceived by the realism of '80s keyboard technology (I just can't get enough), - -Mark Staples, writing to you from a Commodore 64 np: Starlet "When Sun Falls on My Feet" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:17:46 -0400 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: [loud-fans] A shot in the dark... Sounds like "Before Too Long", by Paul Kelly & The Messengers, from the GOSSIP album. At 01:51 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, Dave Walker wrote: >I'm sorry about the vagueness of this query, but I'm hoping someone here >might be able to >help... > >I'm thinking of a song, probably mid/late-80's vintage, that begins with >the words >"Before too long", with a sustain on the last word, a pause, and then a >big drum >snap. It settles into melodic jangle 80's college rock territory after >that. It is >_not_ the Donner Party song of that title, the AMG has proven pretty >unhelpful, and I don't know enough details to make a Google search fruitful >either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:18:10 EDT From: JRT456@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] June LoudSwap review In a message dated 8/14/02 10:24:22 AM, mbowen@frontiernet.net writes: << Stew - "Love Is Coming Through The Door": He got a half-page writeup in the Sunday NYTimes last week, so he's finally getting some mainstream attention. >> Know how to tell when a favorite musician has been profiled in the New York Times? Stew complimented the audience at Tonic last night for not clapping as one song in bThe Drug Suiteb segued into the other. People in the back of the club, though, missed that moment while some cretin was yacking away on his cell phone about a bcompetitive buyout.b Then the same creep tried to sit next to us, and we let him know why he wasnbt welcome anywhere in our vicinity. bBut,b stammered the Oblivious Douchebag, bI made the call during the intermezzo!b ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #279 *******************************