From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #241 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, July 12 2002 Volume 02 : Number 241 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea [Boyof100lists@aol] Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea [Boyof100lists@aol] Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea [dana-boy@juno.] Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea [Gil Ray ] [loud-fans] Birdie [Boyof100lists@aol.com] Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea ["CJ" I saw Neil Finn on Sunday night (which is why I bailed early on the > loud-chat), and Neil had Johnny Marr playing guitar with him for about > half the set. I don't know if he's on the whole tour or just a part of > it, and realize people over the age of 13 aren't supposed to take the > Smiths seriously, but Johnny Marr is one amazing guitarist! They played > two Smiths' songs, "There is a Light" and "How Soon is Now", that > sounded quite a bit better (IMO) sung by Neil Finn instead of Morrissey. > > A couple of things. First of all, that must have been a fabulous show. I wish I could have seen it. I just wish that Marr would quit being so nomadic, and settle into a band where his blatant talents are showcased as a focus. The new Neil Finn record is absolutely superb, IMO. However, I was surprised at something he said in a recent interview. He said that he really oversang on the Crowded House song, "Something So Strong." I suppose artists are the most critical of their work. For the life of me I cannot imagine that song sung any other way. It's such a part of the collective memory. If you were in a mall or somewhere, you would recognize it as soon as you heard the word "love," and you would tune in to listen, and you would probably smile for the next few minutes. If it wasn't "oversung," it wouldn't sound right. I remember reading years back that Peter Buck said he would redo some things on "Murmur," and I'm thinking, what?? That was who he was then, and leave it be. Imagine one thing differently on that record. What if they had not put the sounds of the pooltable's rumblings at the beginning. It would be a typical opening for a record, to just hear Bill Berry's quarter notes. It would be fine, but it wouldn't be nearly as good as it is the way it is. Also, of course Scott is probably the most merciless, calling his vocals "U.O.V." for "Usual Obnoxious Vocals" or something like that, in the liner notes to "Tinker." (I'd need to go look, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet) Scott's voice is fine, and, it's who he is, and if I wanted a George Michael record, I'd buy one. Stay the way I hate you, oh-oh, - -Mark Staples np The Go-Betweens "Before Hollywood" (old unremastered Rough Trade 1990 CD version...no extra disc, no airbag or power brakes) Though I love to hear remasters, along the same lines sometimes a record's atmosphere is lost or significantly altered when they "clean it up" Coffee....NOW. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:07:27 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea In a message dated 7/11/02 8:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Boyof100lists@aol.com writes: > and realize people over the age of 13 aren't supposed to take the > > Smiths seriously So I won't get flamed like the last time I disagreed with this statement, I'll let this slide, and agree to disagree. I'm a pushover without caffeine. :O) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:12:15 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea Also, of course Scott is probably the most merciless, calling his vocals "U.O.V." for "Usual Obnoxious Vocals" or something like that, in the liner notes to "Tinker." (I'd need to go look, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet) Scott's voice is fine, and, it's who he is, and if I wanted a George Michael record, I'd buy one. >>>>>>>>>>>> I've always vaguely wondered if Scott ever tried taking voice lessons. He does seem to enjoy whining about his vocals, and it seems odd that someone who wanted to make a career out of, well, singing wouldn't invest a little effort in, well, improving his singing skills. Now granted, we all know that Scott's the best singer in the world, and that his criticism of his singing is one of those cute little things that he does. But, given that (to pick the two examples that I'm most familiar with) Madonna and Laurie Anderson were willing to invest some effort to improve their vocals, I wonder why Scott hasn't. Or maybe he has. If he hasn't, though, I wonder why not. Or maybe he doesn't really dislike his vocals and it *is* just one of those cute little things that he does. Such a complex man!! - --dana np: Birdie/"Some Dusty" ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:24:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea - --- dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > I've always vaguely wondered if Scott ever tried > taking voice lessons. He does seem to enjoy whining > about his vocals, and it seems odd that someone who > wanted to make a career out of, well, singing > wouldn't invest a little effort in, well, improving > his singing skills. Maybe if Scott ever seeks help from a psychotherapist (which he seems to desperately need), he can find one that also offers vocal lessons. Gil ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for > less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:34:40 -0400 From: "September Gurl" Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea > I've always vaguely wondered if Scott ever tried taking voice lessons. He does >seem to enjoy whining about his vocals, and it seems odd that someone who >wanted to make a career out of, well, singing wouldn't invest a little effort in, >well, improving his singing skills. I started taking voice lessons about 2 years ago, and it seems that at least 50% of what I've learned isn't easily applicable to music of this sort of genre. My voice teacher was always trying to make me sing these sappy, Top 40 "adult contemporary" tunes that I couldn't stand. I can say that practicing some of the exercises has made my voice a lot stronger and more flexible. But, I think a good amount of the techniques would only be useful if someone were interested in being the next Britney or Whitney. Is there anyone else on the list who takes voice lessons, who can comment? It could be just that my skills suck, or that I didn't have the right teacher... Michele ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:31:56 GMT From: dana-boy@juno.com Subject: Re:Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea One of Scott's ex-employees wrote: Maybe if Scott ever seeks help from a psychotherapist (which he seems to desperately need), he can find one that also offers vocal lessons. >>>>>>>>> Oh, c'mon Gil. I know that you need to be nice to Scott until he sends you your W2 (or does he 1099 y'all?) next year, but we're not all beholden to him. Maybe if he'd taken singing lessons it might have helped. One never knows. A lot of actors take Alexander Technique. I wonder why it's considered so girly for rock singers who think they can't sing to take voice lessons. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re:Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea OK,OK! Iwas just being sarcastically funny (which I thought was quite the norm here..) No, Scott doesn't need a shrink (I do),and I think all of his references to "miserable whine" is due to a direct quote from a review he got many years ago. (Sacramento Bee?) Gil - --- dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > One of Scott's ex-employees wrote: > > Maybe if Scott ever seeks help from a > psychotherapist > (which he seems to desperately need), he can find > one > that also offers vocal lessons. > >>>>>>>>> > > Oh, c'mon Gil. I know that you need to be nice to > Scott until he sends you your W2 (or does he 1099 > y'all?) next year, but we're not all beholden to > him. > > Maybe if he'd taken singing lessons it might have > helped. One never knows. A lot of actors take > Alexander Technique. I wonder why it's considered > so girly for rock singers who think they can't sing > to take voice lessons. > > --dana > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for > less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:58:09 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, September Gurl wrote: > I started taking voice lessons about 2 years ago, and it seems that at least > 50% of what I've learned isn't easily applicable to music of this sort of > genre. My voice teacher was always trying to make me sing these sappy, Top > 40 "adult contemporary" tunes that I couldn't stand. I can say that > practicing some of the exercises has made my voice a lot stronger and more > flexible. But, I think a good amount of the techniques would only be useful > if someone were interested in being the next Britney or Whitney. I found Mark Baxter's _Rock-N-Roll Singer's Survival Manual_ helpful, for all that the guy often sounds a bit fatuous. Good exercises for breath control & c. (The last record was done before I found the book, alas.) I haven't taken lessons from anyone in person (and that seems like a logical step, 'cause it's hard to work on pitch issues by yrself) but I would want to find a teacher/coach who was fundamentally sympatico with my goals/styles. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:53:31 -0400 From: "Brett Milano" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea ^^How about King Crimson's "Red"? Y'all coulda progged it up a bit. Now that Scott's out of the closet as a Yes fan, I'm surprised that neither band ever attempted a Yes cover (though I have heard a tape of Game Theory almost going into "Roundabout"). Can definitely hear him singing "And You & I". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:13:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Brett Milano wrote: > ^^How about King Crimson's "Red"? Y'all coulda progged it up a bit. > > Now that Scott's out of the closet as a Yes fan, I'm surprised that neither > band ever attempted a Yes cover (though I have heard a tape of Game Theory > almost going into "Roundabout"). Can definitely hear him singing "And You & > I". Gil & Kenny supposedly slipped a bar or two of "Heart Of The Sunrise" into a song on the last tour. Scott has spoken at length about his like for RELAYER, esp. "The Gates Of Delirium". I look forward to seeing Yes w/ Rick Wakeman on July 20th. Oooeeee oooooooeeeeee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:31:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Gil Ray Subject: Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea - --- "Joseph M. Mallon" wrote: > Gil & Kenny supposedly slipped a bar or two of > "Heart Of The Sunrise" into > a song on the last tour. Slipped is a good description alright. Sounded great when I didn't screw it up! Gil Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:35:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 dana-boy@juno.com wrote: > I've always vaguely wondered if Scott ever tried taking voice lessons. > He does seem to enjoy whining about his vocals, and it seems odd that > someone who wanted to make a career out of, well, singing wouldn't > invest a little effort in, well, improving his singing skills. Go back and listen to some of those old recordings again. And then pick up your copy of FRTR. Or hell, any of the last three LF albums. I'd say his singing has improved immensely. Compare the way he sings the high notes in "Way Too Helpful" to his simply awful attack on the last syllable of "irony" in "Some Grand Vision..." (That's my all-time worst Scott vocal moment, btw) I think he was also doing a better job of writing songs that fall in the part of his range that suits the style of the song, as opposed to my feeling with some of the earlier material that he'd really have been better off transposing a key or two down. > But, given that (to pick the two examples that I'm most familiar with) > Madonna and Laurie Anderson were willing to invest some effort to > improve their vocals, I wonder why Scott hasn't. Ever since Laurie Anderson took voice lessons, her music has put me completely to sleep. Actually, it probably isn't her voice, it's that she doesn't write songs per se, and so the more her songs sound as if they should be songs rather than avant-garde performance pieces, the worse they fail to fulfill what they are. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::glibby glop gloopy nibby nobby noopy la la la la lo:: np: Consonant s/t ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:43:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, September Gurl wrote: > I started taking voice lessons about 2 years ago, and it seems that at least > 50% of what I've learned isn't easily applicable to music of this sort of > genre. My voice teacher was always trying to make me sing these sappy, Top > 40 "adult contemporary" tunes that I couldn't stand. I can say that > practicing some of the exercises has made my voice a lot stronger and more > flexible. But, I think a good amount of the techniques would only be useful > if someone were interested in being the next Britney or Whitney. Which raises the question...who will be the next "-itney" diva? I took some voice lessons some years back, and I think *some* of it would be applicable to any singer: how not to ruin your throat, supporting your voice, projection, etc. Presumably you'd want a good teacher who understood genre requirements (i.e., you *want* a more nasal, projecting tone in guitar-pop than you do if you wanna be an opera star). If I were to attempt to improve what currently passes for my "singing" (i.e., the noises I make that attempt to fit w/records playing in my house), I'd want advice on more consistent tone throughout my range, and how to avoid certain nasty little breaks and weird vowel/consonant combinations that turn it all squawksome. But as I said, whether or not Scott took voice lessons, he seems to have discovered much of that on his own. I don't think he'd ever have a big ol' mainstream rock voice, but I think his voice suits his material admirably. Speaking of voices, what the *hell* was up with Bob Dylan circa _Nashville Skyline_?!? Connecting to the "who should cover who" thread: Kermit the Frog doing "Lay Lady Lay"... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::You think your country needs you, but you know it never will:: __Elvis Costello__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:55:20 -0500 From: Wes_Vokes@eFunds.Com Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea I had heard that Dylan quit smoking at the time of Nashville Skyline...... and the next "-itney" will begin with "sh".... Hey alt-country kids.. the new Meat Purveyors CD is fabulon! Great Ratt cover on it too.... Wes Which raises the question...who will be the next "-itney" diva? Speaking of voices, what the *hell* was up with Bob Dylan circa _Nashville Skyline_?!? Connecting to the "who should cover who" thread: Kermit the Frog doing "Lay Lady Lay"... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::You think your country needs you, but you know it never will:: __Elvis Costello__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:46:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Steve Holtebeck wrote: > "Joseph M. Mallon" wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > Ana once sent me a tape on which he covered "Stop Me If You Think You've > > > Heard This One Before." > > > > Are you sure this wasn't Belle Da Gama? They did this at the 125 Records > > release party last year. > > I don't believe Scott has ever covered "Stop Me". Oh ye of little faith. It is indeed "Stop Me..." that is being covered. Granted, on the tape Ana labeled the track as being by "_ _ o _ _ _ i _ _ e _" - - but if those blanks don't fill out to "Scott Miller," Brock Finker does a mean Scott Miller impersonation. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous...got me? __Captain Beefheart__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:57:29 -0500 From: Bill Silvers Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea Wes Vokes wrote: >Hey alt-country kids.. the new Meat Purveyors CD is fabulon! Great Ratt >cover on it too.... I'm glad to hear it, since I haven't actually heard the record yet. I liked MORE SONGS ABOUT BUILDINGS AND COWS quite a bit, but it's all about the live show with TMP (a little like Split Lip Rayfield), and I missed 'em last month. I see they cover Nick Lowe and Abba as well...hmm. b.s. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:23:07 -0400 From: Michael Bowen Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea At 03:43 PM 7/11/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Connecting to the "who should cover who" thread: Kermit the >Frog doing "Lay Lady Lay"... Kermit was already singing with a popular band around that time. If you don't believe me, go back and listen to "Going Up The Country" by Canned Heat again. MB np: "I Had A Love" - Blue Angel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:23:04 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea At 07:23 PM 7/11/02 -0400, Michael Bowen wrote: >At 03:43 PM 7/11/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >>Connecting to the "who should cover who" thread: Kermit the >>Frog doing "Lay Lady Lay"... > >Kermit was already singing with a popular band around that time. If you >don't believe me, go back and listen to "Going Up The Country" by Canned >Heat again. I'd always thought "Going Up the Country" was recorded proof that Alessandro Moreschi was *not* the last castrato. Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley Every man's sword was against his fellow. The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The First Book of Samuel_, chapter 14, verse 20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:00:47 -0400 From: "Chris Murtland" Subject: [loud-fans] Guided By Voice voice coach taught me to sing; he couldn't teach me to love ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:06:24 EDT From: Boyof100lists@aol.com Subject: [loud-fans] Birdie In a message dated 7/11/02 10:17:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dana-boy@juno.com writes: > np: Birdie/"Some Dusty" > > > > > I thought I was the only person in the world who had this CD!!! I absolutely love this record. One of those albums that is a cozy little world you want to visit again and again. Like "Big Shot." Or maybe "Blizzard of Oz." :O) - -Mark Staples np: Let's Active "Big Plans for Everybody" The CD's liner sleeve is autographed from when they played a Charleston, SC show in 1987, and I was there to pester them backstage (I wasn't old enough to drink yet, but I had a fake ID!...I used to be quite the little hellion). Angie Carlson wrote: "Who is this guy, and why is he doing this?" Fifteen years on, I still don't have an answer) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:11:21 -0500 From: "CJ" Subject: Re: Re:Re: [loud-fans] maybe this has been done...thread idea Michele: > Is there anyone else on the list who takes voice lessons, who can comment? > It could be just that my skills suck, or that I didn't have the right > teacher... I took voice lessons in college as part of my scholarship requirements. Oh, did I hate them. And I especially hated departmental recitals. I was a jackass and wrote "I hate departmentals" on my t-shirt for a departmental at a time when the music department was trying to make them more formal. Then I sang one song instead of two and sang it in almost double time. I went to my lesson the next day and my teacher asked me why we even bothered with it. That was my last voice lesson. Instead, I got to take piano lessons with an old woman who thought my t-shirt story was funny and never made me play in a departmental. And that D in voice lesson sure looked good when I got my grades... As for voice lessons, I did manage to learn some things about breathing and sight reading. As the lessons were geared toward classical music, I didn't sing any sappy Top 40 tunes, but I learned plenty of sappy Italian Songs and Arias. So I learned breathing, sight reading, and how to pronounce Italian words. I don't think I'm particularly suited to be a pop star. Be good, CJ ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #241 *******************************