From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #217 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Thursday, June 20 2002 Volume 02 : Number 217 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] She must be mine... ["O Geier" ] [loud-fans] Hot Hot Heat [Cyndy Patrick ] [loud-fans] scooped again! (Dana stay away!) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey <] Re: [loud-fans] scooped again! ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] She must be mine... ["me" ] [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies ["Aaron Milenski"] [loud-fans] shameless self-promotion ["me" ] Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies ["me" ] Re: [loud-fans] Where's snopes.com? ["glenn mcdonald" ] RE: [loud-fans] Paul from Yale ["Paul Seeman" ] Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies [Dana Paoli <] Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies ["Aaron Milen] [loud-fans] no - it can't be - ON TOPIC?!?!?! ["me" ] Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies [Sue Trowbrid] [loud-fans] paging...Mystery Loudfan [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: [loud-fans] Labels to webcasters - Fornicate U! [John Cooper Subject: [loud-fans] She must be mine... Middle panel guys. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/rexmorgan.asp Support anti-Spam legislation. Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:37:20 -0400 From: Cyndy Patrick Subject: [loud-fans] Hot Hot Heat Don't know if these guys have been mentioned on the list before, but I think "Knock Knock Knock" may be my favorite disc of the year so far. A big part of me evaluates CDs as to whether or not I can jump (rope) to them happily and man oh man does this fit the bill. There's a good chance I'd find the lead singer's swoopy voice a bit irritating over the course of a full-length release but at five songs, I find this EP to be the aural equivalent of a tasty triple espresso. yes, my life really does revolve these days around coffee-drinking and rope-jumping, - -Cyndy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:02:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] scooped again! (Dana stay away!) This is ignorable if you think Anton Barbeau is an odd-looking, hiding-behind-obscure-library-shelves, sticky-musky person best dealt with not at all. Also if you don't like his music. But: "many/some/most/all/none of you probably know that recently i went over to the UK to record an album with the bevis frond. i've only just started shopping the record to labels over here, and thus ain't got no idea about when the album might be released in the states. to help pay off my rather lumpy recording debt sooner than later, 125 Records has offered to release another collection of antonouttakes. 20 songs for 20 bucks is the deal. the album features a handful of cover songs including prince's "purple rain," xtc's "the man who murdered love," the beatles' "cry baby cry," "norwegian wood," "tell me what you see" and "revolution #9," the latter with scott miller as yoko ono. other points of name-droppable interest include scott singing lead on a sitar-heavy mix of "third eye," nick saloman's lovely finger-picked "sylvia something" rehearsal, and a pre-CAKE vince di fiore playing bongos with the Psychedelic Love Cowboys. it's really a fun collection of tunes, if i say so meself. we don't have a release date set for this either, but it should be ready in a few weeks. it's going to be a very limited pressing, probably 100 copies. i imagine by next week i'll have more info regarding pre-ordering etc. oh, i ought to mention that the record will most likely be available only on-line through http://www.125Records.com." - --from Adrienne's cousin's mailing list. So. There you have it. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::does "anal retentive" have a hyphen?:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] scooped again! On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > 125 Records has offered to release another collection of > antonouttakes. 20 songs for 20 bucks is the deal. Just to clarify, this CD doesn't exist yet. There is no scheduled release date, but as soon as there is information to share, we'll let everyone know. Thanks, J. Mallon 125 Records action figurehead ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:13:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] peculiar spam I recently some spam recently inviting me to such-and-such a website for, and I quote, "ALL THE *ORN YOU CAN HANDLE!!!" I don't know about you, but the first Sugarcubes album is pretty much more Einar Orn than I can handle. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::crumple zones:::::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::::small-craft warning:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:14:56 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] She must be mine... i love the previous day's strip: "we're not going to be homeless, dana. we'll find jobs." "doing what, mom? i didn't go to college for two years to flip burgers! and i'm not working some loser minimum wage job... no way!" two years? heh. good luck.... not that a degree is really necessary to do well (i don't have one) but that's just such a character-defining statement. tells you pretty much all you need to know about this chick. - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: "O Geier" To: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 5:18 AM Subject: [loud-fans] She must be mine... > Middle panel guys. > > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/rexmorgan.asp > > Support anti-Spam legislation. > Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:24:12 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies Has anyone else heard about the fact that if you try to make a CD-R copy of the most recent Tool album it releases a virus that basicaly destroys your start-up files and kills your computer? Is this the wave of the future? Are there more CDs that do this? _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:20:19 -0700 From: "me" Subject: [loud-fans] shameless self-promotion i'll be firedancing (and possibly fire eating) tomorrow night in Oakland ant a fundraiser for a burning man camp. good folks, good fun, and light bondage are involved. there will be music, dancing, booze, and bondage demonstrations and lectures. the invite can be found at http://templeofatonement.org/grimm.html. i'll be there around 10:30, performing around midnight. let me know if you plan on coming so i can look for you. it's a small-medium place, so finding each other will be easy. no, i don't do bondage. and if you come along, no, you won't have to either. if you don't want to stand out too much, wear something dark. :) - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:33:59 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > Has anyone else heard about the fact that if you try to make a CD-R copy of > the most recent Tool album it releases a virus that basicaly destroys your > start-up files and kills your computer? Is this the wave of the future? > Are there more CDs that do this? heh heh. funny. in a sick way. but i can't find any mention of it anywhere. - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Milenski" To: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 12:24 PM Subject: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:44:24 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > > Has anyone else heard about the fact that if you try to make a CD-R copy >of > > the most recent Tool album it releases a virus that basicaly destroys >your > > start-up files and kills your computer? Is this the wave of the >future? > > Are there more CDs that do this? > >heh heh. funny. in a sick way. but i can't find any mention of it >anywhere. Yeah; that's about as funny as the ridiculous overpricing of CDs and the way record companies rip off their artists. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Where's snopes.com? It's gone...replaced by a Yahoo 404 page. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:23:19 -0400 From: "Paul Seeman" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Where's snopes.com? Try http://www.snopes2.com/ P > It's gone...replaced by a Yahoo 404 page. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:22:51 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Where's snopes.com? snopes2.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph M. Mallon To: LFList Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: [loud-fans] Where's snopes.com? It's gone...replaced by a Yahoo 404 page. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:26:38 -0400 From: "Paul Seeman" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Paul from Yale > Good to have you aboard sir, and it's nice to see someone from, you know, > that other Ivy League college. Thanks, Andy! Though I don't remember anyone from Brown posting here.... P ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:36:31 -0400 From: Dana Paoli Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > Yeah; that's about as funny as the ridiculous overpricing of CDs >>>>>>>>>>>> Given that CDs aren't overpriced, I'm left unsure as to just how much I should be laughing. Oh, wait, the band was Tool, wasn't it? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Hee hee. Just as long as it doesn't happen to my U.S. Maple albums. - --dana ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:43:36 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies >Given that CDs aren't overpriced You're kidding, right??? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:59:50 -0700 From: "me" Subject: [loud-fans] no - it can't be - ON TOPIC?!?!?! from anton barbeau today: many/some/most/all/none of you probably know that recently i went over to the UK to record an album with the bevis frond. i've only just started shopping the record to labels over here, and thus ain't got no idea about when the album might be released in the states. to help pay off my rather lumpy recording debt sooner than later, 125 Records has offered to release another collection of antonouttakes. 20 songs for 20 bucks is the deal. the album features a handful of cover songs including prince's "purple rain," xtc's "the man who murdered love," the beatles' "cry baby cry," "norwegian wood," "tell me what you see" and "revolution #9," the latter with scott miller as yoko ono. other points of name-droppable interest include scott singing lead on a sitar-heavy mix of "third eye," nick saloman's lovely finger-picked "sylvia something" rehearsal, and a pre-CAKE vince di fiore playing bongos with the Psychedelic Love Cowboys. it's really a fun collection of tunes, if i say so meself. we don't have a release date set for this either, but it should be ready in a few weeks. it's going to be a very limited pressing, probably 100 copies. i imagine by next week i'll have more info regarding pre-ordering etc. oh, i ought to mention that the record will most likely be available only on-line through http://www.125Records.com. soctt miller as yoko ono.... huh. that i'd like to see... - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:07:30 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies At 04:36 PM 6/20/2002 -0400, Dana Paoli wrote: >Given that CDs aren't overpriced, I'm left unsure as to just how much I >should be laughing. "Overpriced" is a vague term with lots of leeway, but it was interesting to read Stan Cornyn's EXPLODING, a history of Warner Brothers Records from it's founding to the present (Cornyn was a key member of the WB brain trust from the early '60s through to the late '90s), in which he admits several times that the prices of CDs have been kept artifically high by corporate owners with an eye on their bottom line. One could argue that this was price-fixing if one felt like getting into yet another music industry rant, which I don't particularly. All I'm saying is that I hope that executives are noticing that a big part of why the new CDs by the White Stripes, Norah Jones, N.E.R.D., etc. are selling so well is that they were priced to sell as low as $6.99 in some places. S ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:30:40 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies At 05:07 PM 6/20/2002 -0400, Stewart Mason wrote: >At 04:36 PM 6/20/2002 -0400, Dana Paoli wrote: >>Given that CDs aren't overpriced, I'm left unsure as to just how much I >>should be laughing. > >"Overpriced" is a vague term with lots of leeway, Doesn't everyone remember when CDs first started coming out, the industry justified CD prices, which were higher than cassettes or LP prices, by saying that the high prices were necessary because of (1) the relatively small install base of CD players and (2) the lack of CD manufacturing capacity. This was accompanied by a promise that when these problems were solved, CD prices would go down, from the $15.99 - $16.99 to the $8.99-$9.99 range that new, non-sale vinyl and cassettes were going for. Well, both hurdles have long been hurdled. But when I walk into Tower, I'm confronted by a sea of $17.99 - $18.99 CDs. Perhaps the industry created a false expectation in the late '80s, but it seems more likely to me that the major labels are keeping the prices artificially high. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:23:21 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies CDs cost roughly the same as, or even less than, LPs did in the pre-CD era, once you allow for inflation. Accusations of CD price-gouging usually focus on the manufacturing cost, but since this is a minor part of the true cost to the record company of releasing a CD--except in the case of very small labels that usually have low list prices anyway--it's not really a valid argument. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:27:24 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies >This was accompanied by a promise that when these problems were >solved, CD prices would go down, from the $15.99 - $16.99 to the >$8.99-$9.99 range that new, non-sale vinyl and cassettes were going for. >Well, both hurdles have long been hurdled. But when I walk into Tower, I'm >confronted by a sea of $17.99 - $18.99 CDs. Which is--guess what?--around $8.99-$9.99 in 1980 dollars. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:32:17 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Miles Goosens wrote: > At 05:07 PM 6/20/2002 -0400, Stewart Mason wrote: > >At 04:36 PM 6/20/2002 -0400, Dana Paoli wrote: > >>Given that CDs aren't overpriced, I'm left unsure as to just how much I > >>should be laughing. > > > >"Overpriced" is a vague term with lots of leeway, > > Well, both hurdles have long been hurdled. But when I walk into Tower, I'm > confronted by a sea of $17.99 - $18.99 CDs. Perhaps the industry created a > false expectation in the late '80s, but it seems more likely to me that the > major labels are keeping the prices artificially high. there's another way to look at this, which is that dischord sells its cds for 10$ ppd. now, that's a little more than half what the majors are charging, but how do you think dischord's overhead compares? they have a handful of employees, and if you buy direct there aren't even distributors in the chain; you're looking at the raw costs of recording/pressing and not a whole lot more. (yes, their pressing costs are higher per unit, because volume is lower. on the other hand, they don't have $100000 recording budgets) (you can believe me or not if i assert that dischord's pricing structure is set up to break even overall, and make a bit beyond to enable them to sign & support new artists when they want to. i suspect they make money on fugazi/minor threat and a handful of the other artists and lose money on most of the catalog. kinda like other labels) everytime i see a breakdown of the 16/17.98 list price i see about $6 for the distributor/retailer. at least. ymmv. one thing for sure, it doesn't go to the artist. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:31:37 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] scooped again! hrm... weird. in my defense, i was not receiving any loud-fans mail until now, and now i find that i've posted somethign you all already knew about. stupid mail servers.... - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Cc: "where they sleep better knowing stuff" Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [loud-fans] scooped again! > On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > 125 Records has offered to release another collection of > > antonouttakes. 20 songs for 20 bucks is the deal. > > Just to clarify, this CD doesn't exist yet. There is no scheduled release > date, but as soon as there is information to share, we'll let everyone > know. > > Thanks, > J. Mallon > 125 Records action figurehead ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:57:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > Accusations of CD price-gouging usually focus on the manufacturing cost, but > since this is a minor part of the true cost to the record company of releasing a > CD--except in the case of very small labels that usually have low list prices > anyway--it's not really a valid argument. A minor part indeed -- I'm sure a good chunk of the money Virgin makes off, say, the new Bryan Ferry and N*E*R*D CDs will go toward the debt they incurred paying Mariah Carey to stop making records for them. $19 for a CD isn't too much when you consider that it costs around $18 for two people to take in a movie these days, and that's over in 2 hours whereas you'll have the CD forever (unless it sucks and you trade it in, of course). I kind of balk at paying that much, though -- I paid $15.98 for the new Brendan Benson CD, but most things I buy new seem to be in the $14 range. - --Sue ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:05:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [loud-fans] paging...Mystery Loudfan Some months back, someone here was talking about their favorite live shows, and one of them was the band Soda, which was a Milwaukee band (featuring Al Weatherhead, who's touring with Mary Timony, whom you should all go see). My computer was munged up for a while, but finally I've got things working well enough that I was able to burn a CD of the Soda tape I have. So, Mystery Loudfan, contact me offlist and I will send you a copy, if ya want it. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::American people like their politics like Pez - small, sweet, and ::coming out of a funny plastic head. __Dennis Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:10:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Stewart Mason wrote: > "Overpriced" is a vague term with lots of leeway, but it was interesting to > read Stan Cornyn's EXPLODING, a history of Warner Brothers Records from > it's founding to the present (Cornyn was a key member of the WB brain trust > from the early '60s through to the late '90s), in which he admits several > times that the prices of CDs have been kept artifically high by corporate > owners with an eye on their bottom line. Tim W.'s point is a good one (relating to one of my pet peeves: unconverted dollars, as if dollars have a constant worth), but it still seems the case that the way major labels do business causes them to have more overhead than some smaller labels. Whether or not you want to justify that, as dmw points out, Dischord can sell $10 CDs and be a viable business. I see mall CD stores charging $17-20/CD - but why would anyone pay that much, when indie stores charge $3-5 less than that? - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::SCENE 2: ::Aunt Fritzi applies lipstick in the mirror. In the next room, Sluggo ::removes his ever-present cap and blows his nose in a red handkerchief. ::Nancy enters the room and accuses Sluggo of stealing the donuts that ::Aunt Fritzi made for her. Sluggo looks at the clock, which reads 8:54, ::and says he'd better hurry or he'll be late for his trombone lesson. np: Soda CD-R ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:54:09 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies Aaron: >Are there more CDs that do this? Not picking on Aaron, but I seem to recall there was a recent discussion about whether plural acronyms should have apostrophes (I think it was during finals for me, so I wasn't paying attention). Anyway, can we please bring back the apostrophe, such as with CD's, above? I mean, you wouldn't write Oakland As, would you? If you think of the term CD's as a contraction, then the apostrophe is appropriate. Anyway, it looks awkward without it. What does the Chicago Manual say about this? JS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:58:23 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies >What does the Chicago Manual say about this? I don't have that, but I can tell you that, according to Robert Bringhurst's THE ELEMENTS OF TYPOGRAPHIC STYLE, apostrophes should be used for plurals only when necessary for easy comprehension. "Oakland A's" is a good example; "do's and don'ts" is one that he gives. Note the lack of a second apostrophe in "don'ts". "CDs", or any other acronym composed of caps, does not take an apostrophe. More subjectively, "CD's" looks completely wrong to me. Would you write "SACD's" or "POW's" or "NGO's" or "NIMBY's"? I hope not. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:09:01 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies Tim: >> $17.99 - $18.99 CDs. > >Which is--guess what?--around $8.99-$9.99 in 1980 dollars. Wait - is that right? We've had 100% inflation in 20 years? I'm not sure if inflation is the right term, but you know what I'm asking. Mr. Mitton? JS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:18:37 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies Tim: >I don't have that, but I can tell you that, according to Robert Bringhurst's THE >ELEMENTS OF TYPOGRAPHIC STYLE, apostrophes should be used for plurals only when >necessary for easy comprehension. Ahh! A rule with endless exceptions applied on a purely subjective, fact-driven basis? Now you're talkin' my language! I thought only courts were allowed to do that... But seriously, that actually makes sense. Thanks! JS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:14:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > "Overpriced" is a vague term with lots of leeway, but it was interesting to This is certainly true, and ultimately it's a matter of personal preference whether the term is accurate or not (or perhaps a legal matter if you think record companies are colluding, but that's a different issue.) But there's still a few things that tend to get left out of these discussions. The first is that the CD market is closest to what economists confusingly call "monopolistic competition." The idea is that 125 records has a monopoly on selling Jill Olson's "My Best Yesterday", and they can take advanatage of that, but they do face competition loosely from other CDs. The important fact is that a label can raise their price on a CD without losing their entire market, which means that the price they set on CDs doesn't really have much to do with the cost of producing the CD (both per-CD costs and original costs to actually record it). It has far more to do with the sensitivity of consumers to price changes. So go through this little mental exercise: if the price of CD X were raised by a dollar, how would the sales of X be affected? If the sales would be affected a lot, then you'll tend to find this CD is priced relatively low. If it wouldn't affect sales much, then you'll find the CD is priced relatively high. As a rule of thumb, I think this is borne out. (The White Stripes are relatively unknown, so people are more price conscious about buying their CD. Britney Spears, on the other hand, well it's Mom's money anyway.) I think it's a mistake to think about CD prices in terms of "making up costs of production" or recovering money from flopping Mariah Carey records. These are all sunk costs when it comes time to price a CD. Record companies set CD prices to maximize the *revenue* from that CD. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:20:00 -0700 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies On 6/20/02 3:58 PM, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > I don't have that, but I can tell you that, according to Robert Bringhurst's > THE ELEMENTS OF TYPOGRAPHIC STYLE, apostrophes should be used for plurals only > when necessary for easy comprehension. "Oakland A's" is a good example; A's stands for Athletics. Thus the apostrophe indicates a contraction. l.p. Bettie Serveert, Lamprey - -------------------------------------- Michael J. Zwirn, Environmental Policy Analyst http://zwirn.com michael@zwirn.com Home: 503/232-8919 Cell: 503/887-9800 Fax: 503/232-0228 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:16:02 -0700 From: "me" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > >Are there more CDs that do this? ... > If you think of the term > CD's as a contraction, then the apostrophe is appropriate. Anyway, it looks > awkward without it. but it's not a contraction. it's a possessive. > What does the Chicago Manual say about this? New York Times says CD's is correct. US News and World Report says o only use an apostraphe when it would be sonfusing without it. - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- - ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sharples" To: "Aaron Milenski" ; Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > Aaron: > > >Are there more CDs that do this? > > > Not picking on Aaron, but I seem to recall there was a recent discussion > about whether plural acronyms should have apostrophes (I think it was during > finals for me, so I wasn't paying attention). > > Anyway, can we please bring back the apostrophe, such as with CD's, above? > I mean, you wouldn't write Oakland As, would you? > > JS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:19:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies > Wait - is that right? We've had 100% inflation in 20 years? I'm not sure > if inflation is the right term, but you know what I'm asking. Mr. Mitton? Pretty much. $9.00 in 1982 has the same buying power as $16.77 today according to the CPI. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:23:25 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies >but it still >seems the case that the way major labels do business causes them to have >more overhead than some smaller labels. Whether or not you want to justify >that, as dmw points out, Dischord can sell $10 CDs and be a viable >business. I think both business models have their points. In theory, the extra money spent on major-label records results in a better product which appeals to more people. In turn, more money is spent on promotion so that those people know about it and buy it at a slightly premium price, which in turn pays for better recording and the promotion itself. Sometimes this theory even works; REVOLVER and PET SOUNDS, for example, are albums that probably couldn't have been made to the same standards by the indies of the time. As we all know, the majors are for the most part doing a lousy job these days of finding artists that appeal both to music fanatics and casual listeners; extra money spent on recording sometimes decreases quality rather than increasing it; what passes for promotion is mere payola. I'm not here to defend the majors. I just think their crime isn't gouging customers, but rather failing to represent the musical mainstream with dignity and craft. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:39:17 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: [loud-fans] Epistrophy >A's stands for Athletics. Thus the apostrophe indicates a contraction. OK. But even if it weren't a contraction, you'd still want an apostrophe to avoid confusion with the word "as". In fact, the plural of any single letter should probably have an apostrophe: "mind your p's and q's" is a lot easier to read than "mind your ps and qs". But "CDs" is, if anything, easier to read than "CD's", since it's unambiguous and can't be confused with the possessive. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:41:45 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies I do feel that the majors are doing unknown musicians a disservice by pricing recordings by new bands outside of the "impulse buy" range. I had precisely this conversation with a clerk at a local (chain) shop a couple of months ago. I had an extra $20 in my pocket after running errands and found myself right next door to the chain shop. I walked in, determined to buy something just for the hell of it, but practically every CD in the store was $17.99. Instead of taking a chance on a new band, I ended up walking out with another CD from a guy who is very well represented in my collection. I'm hardly an "average" music consumer as far as the amount I spend annually on music-- I imagine Joe Blow off the street is even less likely to take a chance. - -- Dave Walker freeform radio and live, nude fish at: http://www.freeke.org/ffg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:59:50 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: [loud-fans] Ranting at random... I noticed the NEW YORK POST offered a headline about the latest "homicide bombing" in Israel. I despise this trend of calling the suicide bombers "homicide bombers." It's such empty, self-righteous rhetoric. (I had heard Bush was using the term. Is that true?) We *know* they're homicidal, we presume that about people who detonate powerful bombs in crowded public areas. It's the fact that they're also suicidal that distinguishes them and makes them especially insidious and dangerous. I know the idea behind it - "we don't want to give them credit for the suicide, don't want to make them martyrs" - but that's policy, not reporting. I know, I know, "It's the POST," but they're not the only ones doing it. JS PS I live in a heavily Jewish Orthodox neighborhood, and there has been a noticeable police presence outside all the schools and synagogues... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:53:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > I think both business models have their points. In theory, the extra money spent > on major-label records results in a better product which appeals to more people. This reminds me that I missed a point from my last long post. The amount of advertising done is not a sunk cost, and is relevant at the time the CD is being sold. But I still don't think it's quite right to say "There was a lot of advertising, and so the label needed to charged a high price to make up the advertising cost." I would rather say, "There was a lot of advertising, which was successful in convincing consumers that they wanted the CD regardless of cost, and so the label was able to charge more for the CD." Labels still have to choose prices to maximize revenue, and advertising plays an indirect role through its effect on consumers' demand. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:02:35 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies >Labels still have to choose prices to maximize revenue, Just wanted to say that Michael's analysis of major-label econonics is much more cogent than mine, and, where it contradicts mine, is to be preferred. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:16:50 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: [loud-fans] Labels to webcasters - Fornicate U! The rates are final, and they are not pretty. http://www.copyright.gov/carp/webcasting_rates_final.html The goofiest aspect of the decision, as I read it (I am not a lawyer, naturally) is that the basis of the 8.8% royalty rate seems to be the fact that broadcasters have to produce intermediate files at the correct bitrate to broadcast, and the labels argued that these intermediate bitrate files have some intrinsic financial value. Which is, excuse my Frangais BOO-WALL-SHEET, but hey, the DMCA is the law of the land, and we just live here. - -- Dave Walker freeform radio and live, nude fish at: http://www.freeke.org/ffg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:32:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, me wrote: > > If you think of the term CD's as a contraction, then the > > apostrophe is appropriate. Anyway, it looks awkward without it. > > but it's not a contraction. it's a possessive. It's neither. It's a plural of an abbreviation (not an acronym, unless you call them "seeds"). The apostrophe connotes possession to me - those nouns possessed by a CD. With A's, I believe the apostrophe is, as Brianna wrote, to avoid confision. "CDs" is not a word without the apostrophe. "As" is. Capitalizing the C and the D avoids the confusion "cds" might create, although neither is "cds" a word. Ergo, for me, "CDs". Otherwise, those nouns possessed by more than one CD would be "CD's'" nouns, or, in England, "CD's's". You strunk my white! J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:10 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies The logically correct method would be to quote the letters. Mind your "p"s and "q", like counting the "the"s and "of"s in a sentence, or the "fire"s and "higher"s in a Springsteen song. Which brings us nicely back to either quoting protocol, or home taping, your choice... CDs, however, is just fine as is. Apostrophes are never tools for pluralizing. Never. Dammit. glenn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:03:25 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: RE: [loud-fans] More evil actions from the record companies >The logically correct method would be to quote the letters. Mind your >"p"s and "q", This is indeed quite logical. But, like, ick. Or as Mr. Bringhurst would probably say, "Inconsistency is better than a profusion of unnecessary marks." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:07:42 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Ranting at random... The Bush administration suggested the terminology change, and Fox News immediately said they'd implement it. This was a few weeks ago; I haven't heard anything further, such as other news institutions following suit. I agree that the phrase "homicide bomber" pushes its agenda on the listener, since the term "murder bomber" would be more euphonious while not making the obvious contrast with "suicide bomber." On 6/20/02, John Sharples wrote: >I noticed the NEW YORK POST offered a headline about the latest "homicide >bombing" in Israel. I despise this trend of calling the suicide bombers >"homicide bombers." It's such empty, self-righteous rhetoric. (I had heard >Bush was using the term. Is that true?) We *know* they're homicidal, we >presume that about people who detonate powerful bombs in crowded public areas. >It's the fact that they're also suicidal that distinguishes them and makes >them especially insidious and dangerous. > >I know the idea behind it - "we don't want to give them credit for the >suicide, don't want to make them martyrs" - but that's policy, not reporting. >I know, I know, "It's the POST," but they're not the only ones doing it. > >JS > >PS I live in a heavily Jewish Orthodox neighborhood, and there has been a >noticeable police presence outside all the schools and synagogues... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:14:16 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Labels to webcasters - Fornicate U! On 6/20/02, Dave Walker wrote: >The rates are final, and they are not pretty. > >http://www.copyright.gov/carp/webcasting_rates_final.html I see this: "The Librarian established September 1, 2002, as the effective date of the rates. That does not mean that no royalties are due for webcasters9 activities prior to September 1. Webcasters and others using the statutory licenses will have to pay royalties for all of their activities under the licenses since October 28, 1998. However, the September 1 effective date determines when the royalty payments will have to be made." Does this mean that my favorite Internet radio stations suddenly have to pay for four years' worth of broadcasting even if they had no reason to expect such a fee when they started out? ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #217 *******************************