From: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org (loud-fans-digest) To: loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Subject: loud-fans-digest V2 #209 Reply-To: loud-fans@smoe.org Sender: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-loud-fans-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk loud-fans-digest Friday, June 14 2002 Volume 02 : Number 209 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [loud-fans] Possible old ground ["O Geier" ] Re: [loud-fans] questions re making CD-Rs [dmw ] Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation ["John Swartzentruber" ] RE: [loud-fans] Possible old ground ["Larry Tucker" ] Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground + Plug [Chris Prew ] Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground ["John Sharples" ] Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [loud-fans] Re: Possible old ground [mbowen@frontiernet.net] [loud-fans] Re: Possible old ground [mbowen@frontiernet.net] [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD ["Joseph M. Mallon" ] Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation [Stewart Mason ] Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation [Tim_Walters@digidesign.com] Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation ["Aaron Milenski" Subject: [loud-fans] Possible old ground I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was 'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? It was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, much less dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library had many, so I could get my classical fix taken care of. Support anti-Spam legislation. Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:57:51 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] questions re making CD-Rs On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Stewart Mason wrote: > At 11:38 PM 6/13/2002 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > >One thing that hasn't worked so well is my attempts to balance the > >(perceived) levels of various tracks on mix CDs. I have a couple of > >options: Nero's burning software has a little checkbox whereby it > >supposedly normalizes all the tracks, and gives you the option of doing so > >either by using RMS (and you can set the level) or % of maximum volume. I > >would have thought that RMS would work better for what I was trying to do, > >but I failed to account for some rather "hot" tracks that ended up > >distorting (presumably if I'd set the level lower, that wouldn't have been > >a problem)? Those of you who are more experienced with these puppies might > >help me out if you're so inclined. > > Personally, I use Cool Edit 2000 for that, among many other useful things. > I wouldn't recommend purchasing it unless you're going to be making CD-rs > from your LPs -- for which it's invaluable, more than worth the $129 you'll > drop for the program and its special audio restoration plug-in -- but what > I do after I record anything, either CD or vinyl, is use Cool Edit's i wuz gonna keep this offlist, but the hell... i enthusiastically recommend cool edit 2000 (www.syntrillium.com, i only wish they gave me kickbacks.) neither peak normalization nor rms normalization will every *really* tell you how loud something is, because it's psychoacoustic more than mathematical - but rms will be a little less fooled by brief transients that "peg the meter" but have little effect on perceived loudness. and yeah, heavily compressed stuff will sound louder at the same amplitude. nature of the beast. if you really care, jog it by eye/ear, and normalize to 75% or 90% or whatever, instead of 100%. even now that i have protools, i think ce2k is an invaluable tool for assembling mixes. the noise reduction is pretty damn handy (and is as essential imho for working with material transferred from cassette as from vinyul). - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:58:57 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:15:39 -0500 (CDT), Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >FOr example, my ^i^ rule does *not* work if that >second vowel is g or r Ah heck, JeFFrey, the entire language doesn't work if that second vowel is g or r. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:16:34 -0400 From: "Janet" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation Jeff asks about alphabetization AGAIN, and specifically goads me into responding: >Librarians' input always welcome, of course. Alrighty. In short, to distinguish between identical names, just use the author/artist's middle initial if it is commonly known and used as part of his name. Otherwise, use the year of birth. Alphabetize on the middle initial and/or chronologize on the date of birth. See how the Library of Congress does it in its catalog, which is really quite a mess: http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=miller% 2C+scott&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=18303&SEQ=20020614094245&CNT=25&HIST=1 or http://makeashorterlink.com/?T24346F01 Here's an example when you have personal names with vexatiously identical middle initials: http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=smith% 2C+john+l&Search_Code=NAME_&PID=18303&SEQ=20020614095054&CNT=25&HIST=1 or http://makeashorterlink.com/?W28343F01 Jeff asked specifically about simple alphabetization, but if you want to be precise about organizing your CDs on the shelf, you want to classify them. For music, I recommend the Library of Congress scheme over the Dewey Decimal System. In my library and in many public libraries, we classify nonfiction books by Dewey but use more-or-less arbitrary genre codes (fiction, mystery; opera, jazz, pop, etc.) for fiction, movies and music, and alphabetize within each genre by the author/artist's last name. It's extremely imprecise, but then, you should see what our shelves look like anyway after a busy day of browsing by hoi polloi. If you embark on this sort of project, you will want to brush up on Cutter numbers: http://www.carl.org/tlc/crs/cutr0001.htm This stuff is sorta fun, occasionally, because I don't have to do it for a living. Libraries catalog, classify, and shelve materials accordingly, in an attempt to make them easy to find by any library user. This is a lofty goal, I know, and our systems fall short. At home, you are typically the only person who knows or cares about the order of your CDs, and you may not want anyone else touching them anyway, so shelve them HOWEVER YOU WANT. Glenn's system (he referenced his three Avalons) is idiosyncratic; so is Paul's (and his cat's), but they work for the collection's owners. For a while, we IDs shelved our CDs by spine color. This looked so dramatic and eye-catching, but heavens, did it ever NOT work. janet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:19:48 -0400 From: "Janet" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground I bought The Jam's _Extras_ when it came out in 1992, but didn't bother getting a CD player for three or four years thereafter. By the time I finally caved in, I owned a couple dozen CDs and was beginning to feel foolish about them. janet Oz writes: > I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was > 'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? It > was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, much less > dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library had many, so I > could get my classical fix taken care of. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:29:15 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Possible old ground Bought my first CD player in 1988 and my first disc I bought with it was Robyn Hitchcock's GLOBE OF FROGS. I think within weeks of this acquisition I bought a portable CD player with a cassette car kit so I could listen to these things in the car. And that's still how I listen to CDs in the car today. I guess I will eventually get an in-dash player, but a changer would be out of the question as I pop CDs in and out way too often for one of those. Larry Miles will be happy to know I'll be seeing Scott Miller tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:32:55 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground At 12:23 PM +0000 6/14/02, O Geier wrote: >I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was >'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? It >was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, much less >dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library had many, so I >could get my classical fix taken care of. Cabaret Voltaire's EIGHT CREPUSCULE SONGS. Matt Pray consider what a figure a man would make in the republic of letters. Joseph Addison (1672-1719), Ancient Medals, 1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:34:16 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: [loud-fans] burning question So Rog are the flames licking at your heels? - -Larry Whose Hurricanes dream run finally, inevitably came to an end last night. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:40:01 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground It was 1992 for me, well past the time when LPs outnumbered CDs in stores. I signed up for one of those mail-order club deals so I could start with 15 CDs at once. That initial shipment contained a defective copy of k.d. lang's "Shadowland" with a visible black glitch in the pressing--the only unplayable CD I bought for several years, and still the most severe. On 6/14/02, Janet wrote: >I bought The Jam's _Extras_ when it came out in 1992, but didn't bother >getting a CD player for three or four years thereafter. By the time I >finally caved in, I owned a couple dozen CDs and was beginning to feel >foolish about them. > >janet > > >Oz writes: >> I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was >> 'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to >share? It >> was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, much less >> dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library had many, >so I >> could get my classical fix taken care of. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:01:55 -0500 From: Chris Prew Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground + Plug > At 12:23 PM +0000 6/14/02, O Geier wrote: >> Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? An odd release called "Two Steps from the Middle Ages" by this lost band from the 80's called Game Theory. I think it was probably 1989. My band sombertown just released a new 5 song EP called "Star City". Check out a sample at http://www.mp3.com/sombertown. There is a link to purchase it from there too. We're pretty pleased with it, so give it a listen! I hate doing that, but... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:07:38 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground > >> Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? > >An odd release called "Two Steps from the Middle Ages" by this lost band >from the 80's called Game Theory. I think it was probably 1989. My first CD purchase was also Game Theory -- LOLITA NATION, 10 years before I bought a CD player, figuring that whenever I did get around to buying a CD player I may no longer have such an easy time finding it. Was I right, or what? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:00:52 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Aaron Milenski wrote: > > >> Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? if memory serves, i had 4 cds before i had a cd player, and bought another 4 the day i bought the player. prev: rem's "fables" and _murmur_, alarm's _declaration_ and _strength_ day of: depeche mode's "broken frame" and _black celebration_; bauhaus _1979-1983_ (both volumes). i think "fables" had the best long-box art ever. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:03:36 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground At 12:23 PM 6/14/2002 +0000, O Geier wrote: >I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was >'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? Oddly enough, I bought my first CD player in May of 1990, and ORANGES AND LEMONS was also my first CD purchase, along with the Primitives' LOVELY, both used. The first new CD I ever bought was the Sundays' READING WRITING AND ARITHMETIC. S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:10:37 -0700 From: Michael Zwirn Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground On 6/14/02 9:00 AM, dmw wrote: > if memory serves, i had 4 cds before i had a cd player, and bought another > 4 the day i bought the player. > prev: rem's "fables" and _murmur_, alarm's _declaration_ and _strength_ > day of: depeche mode's "broken frame" and _black celebration_; bauhaus > _1979-1983_ (both volumes). > > i think "fables" had the best long-box art ever. That was a good one. My first CD was R.E.M.'s EPONYMOUS. Didn't own a CD player for ages, and didn't get one until way late. last played: US-Poland. Ow, my aching head. Thank heavens for South Korea. - -------------------------------------- Michael J. Zwirn, Environmental Policy Analyst http://zwirn.com michael@zwirn.com Home: 503/232-8919 Cell: 503/887-9800 Fax: 503/232-0228 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:16:45 -0400 From: "John Sharples" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground O: >Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? When the first four Beatles albums were released on CD in 1987 I bought them the day they were released (they came with those long cardboard boxes). The only problem was I didn't own a CD player. So I borrowed my friend's, hooked it up to my stereo, stuck PLEASE PLEASE ME in there, hit play, and.....nothing. So I turned the volume up...still nothing. I was used to vinyl and tape, so since I didn't hear any surface noise I assumed the channel was dead. I turned it up all the way, and THEN the track kicked in and almost destroyed my speakers. Eventually I got a CD player, and the next batch of CDs were gifts from my friends on my birthday: the dB's LIKE THIS, Costello's SPIKE, LIFE'S RICH PAGENT, IMAGINE, and ENGLISH SETTLEMENT. JS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:13:54 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 02:08 AM 6/14/2002 -0400, John Sharples wrote: >BAND ON THE RUN, RED ROSE SPEEDWAY, and other albums credited to "Paul >McCartney & Wings" are filed under P. As someone who has used some odd alphabetizations in his life, I have to say, I have never heard of anyone filing band names of the "Foo and the Bars" variety under the person's first name. Is this at all common? Stewart, who might be inspired to finish unpacking his LPs by this discussion ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:28:23 +0100 From: "richblath" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground - ----- Original Message ----- From: "O Geier" > I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was > 'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? It > was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, much less > dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library had many, so I > could get my classical fix taken care of. I was another who took a while to move on over from those old flat things. I can't remember if I actually owned a CD player when I got some of the Arista Church reissues. The first CD I know I got while owning a player was HUP by the WONDER STUFF. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:24:10 +0000 From: "O Geier" Subject: [loud-fans] This is really good. Love it or hate it (the movie), I've found the most well written review of Scooby Doo you'll likely find. Pay attention to the last paragraph... http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-scooby14f.html Support anti-Spam legislation. Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:34:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, John Sharples wrote: > >...wouldn't one file Alice Cooper's > >albums through, what is it, MUSCLE OF LOVE under A (it was originally the > >band's name, after all) and everything starting with WELCOME TO MY > >NIGHTMARE under C? Yes, because it was the band's name, as Stewart says. Similar to why only idiots file Jethro Tull under T. > It's simple. Here's how it works: > > McCARTNEY, RAM, TUG OF WAR and other albums credited to "Paul McCartney" or > "Paul and Linda McCartney" are filed under M. > > BAND ON THE RUN, RED ROSE SPEEDWAY, and other albums credited to "Paul > McCartney & Wings" are filed under P. > > VENUS AND MARS, LONDON TOWN, BACK TO THE EGG and other albums credited to > "Wings" are filed under W. > > It hurts, but that's the way it is. No freakin' way it is, John. Truthfully, I cheat: I tend to want to put all my albums by the "same" artist together, chronologically within artist - so, for example, every album by Elvis Costello (regardless whether billed under his name, with the Attractions, "The Costello Show" etc.) is under C-O-S etc. There are borderline issues, of course: I don't put Game Theory and Loud Family together, but I wonder how I'd feel if there'd been a Wings-like maneuvering along the lines of "Scott Miller and Game Theory," "Game Theory," "Scott Miller and the Loud Family," "The Loud Family." I keep vacillating on whether or not the Dukes of Stratosphear album should be filed where it is, in D, or w/the rest of the XTC albums. Same re Ciccone Youth. I treat numbers always as if they're spelled out - so MC5 goes after McCartney. All people surnamed Smith (Elliott, Jimmy, Kendra, Patti) go before The Smiths. (And it is to laugh if you think I'm going to file _Horses_ under "P" for "Patti Smith Group") I've decided initials are silly and run them along with everything else - so Lou Reed, Regular Einstein, R.E.M., Renaldo & the Loaf in that order. I'm still unsure about things like Chuck D.: under D, as if that's a surname (it isn't, really - he's "Carlton Ridenhour") or under C? Also, if I had more albums by folks calling themselves DJ whatever, I might consider *not* filing them under D but under whatever follows (DJ Krush, DJ Spooky are the only two right now) under the Rule of Irish Phonebooks, whereby nearly everyone would be under M or O but instead gets to go under the first letter of the patronym proper ("O Brien" under B, "Mac Domnhail" under D). You all care a lot about this. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::PLEASE! You are sending cheese information to me. I don't want it. ::I have no goats or cows or any other milk producing animal! __"raus"__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:37:05 -0400 From: mbowen@frontiernet.net Subject: [loud-fans] Re: Possible old ground I was seriously pissed about having to buy a CD player, but when I was unable to find a new release on vinyl (Poi Dog Pondering's "Wishing Like A Mountain..., which would place it in early 1990), I stuck 100 bucks in my pocket and planned to go buy one that Friday. The next day I got a call from one of those marketing companies that run focus groups. They asked me if I was willing to do one Thursday night. It was for Sony, who were introducing some sort of portable electronic organizer, like a primitive Handspring Visor. At the end of the session, instead of the usual 40 - 50 bucks, they were offering a choice between three items: one of the organizer gizmos, a deluxe Walkman, or a CD player. The next day I drove to Pier Platters in Hoboken and picked up a bunch of used CDs, including Don Dixon's 'EEE', Neil Young's 'Freedom', and the Greenpeace 'Rainbow Warriors' comp. My most recent CD purchase was the new not-available-in-stores live Richard Thompson Band album, 'Semi-Detatched Mock Tudor', currently available from http://www.richardthompson-music.com . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:41:40 -0400 From: mbowen@frontiernet.net Subject: [loud-fans] Re: Possible old ground Ummm...make that 'Semi-Detached'...sorry about the spelling... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Mallon" Subject: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Janet wrote: > For a while, we IDs shelved our CDs by spine color. This looked so > dramatic and eye-catching, but heavens, did it ever NOT work. It was, however, beautiful to look at. On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, John Sharples wrote: > PS The question I haven't exactly solved is, are "McC" records filed before > or after the MC5? I say after, but... ASCII order dictates 5 before C - all numbers before any letter. On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, O Geier wrote: > I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD purchase was > 'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD purchase to share? It > was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, much less > dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library had many, so I > could get my classical fix taken care of. Christmas '85 - Dad bought me a CD player, and there was an audiophile shop in the little NJ village where he lived - Franklin Lakes, for those keeping score. The shop was open on Christmas, but their Rock section was rather paltry, so my first CD was Sueprtramp's CRIME OF THE CENTURY. I replaced it with a remastered version a couple years ago. New question: how many CDs have you bought more than once, because of remastering or rerelease with bonus tracks? "I lost it" doesn't count. J. Mallon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:13:34 +0100 From: "Ian Runeckles & Angela Bennett" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Possible old ground > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "O Geier" > > > > I didn't have a CD player until June of 1990. My first CD > purchase was > > 'Oranges and Lemons'. Anybody else have a first CD > purchase to share? > > It was a real struggle paying the rent and everything else, > much less > > dropping, what was it, $13 back then? The public library > had many, so > > I could get my classical fix taken care of. I bought my first CD player, a Yamaha, round about 86 and got two free CDs with it - from the meagre selection on offer I chose Donald Fagen's THE NIGHTFLY and Handel's MESSIAH. The first ones I can remember buying after that were The Cure's STARING AT THE SEA singles thing, Creedence Clearwater Revival's CHRONICLE collection, Zappa's DOES HUMOR BELONG IN MUSIC, Ralph Towner's SOLO CONCERT and Oregon's THE CROSSING. Ian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:17:49 -0700 From: Steve Holtebeck Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > I treat numbers always as if they're spelled out - so MC5 goes after > McCartney. All people surnamed Smith (Elliott, Jimmy, Kendra, Patti) go > before The Smiths. (And it is to laugh if you think I'm going to file > _Horses_ under "P" for "Patti Smith Group") But what about the group Smith (of "Baby It's You" fame)? Would they come before or after the people surnamed Smith. Or to cite my own real life alphabetical conundrum, does the band Green come before or after Al Green? I had Reverend Al (Green, Al) after Green and before Green Day and Green on Red and the rest of them, but he didn't look comfortable there, so I put him in front of all the Green bands, to keep them all in line! > I've decided initials are silly and run them along with everything else - > so Lou Reed, Regular Einstein, R.E.M., Renaldo & the Loaf in that order. But why wouldn't Renaldo & the Loaf be under L by the "Foo and the Bars" rule? Because that doesn't make any sense. "Foo Jack and the Bars" are under J, but "Foo and the Bars" are under F. My one guideline for all this is "where would I find this at the record store?". I had four CDs before I bought a CD player, and don't remember all of them now, but they're probably in the escribe archives.. TINKER by Game Theory, the Flamin' Groovies GREATEST GROOVES, the Raspberries' Capitol Collection, and one more 70+ minute compilation I had to have. 12 years later, I own a handful of DVDs, but no DVD player to play them on, or in, or do whatever preposition it takes for those DVD things to play. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:15:48 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation >Yes, because it was the band's name, as Stewart says. Similar to why only >idiots file Jethro Tull under T. The one I always have trouble with is Captain Beefheart. I think I ended up filing him under B, but I'd have to look to be sure. My alphabetization rule is to file everything the first way that occurs to me, in the hope that that'll be the first way that occurs to me when I go to find it ten years later. This obviously breaks down when I'm conflicted from the get-go. Jethro Tull is under J, though, so I dodged that bullet. First CD: Guillaume de Machaut, LE REMEDE DE FORTUNE, which turned out to be my favorite early music album. It has some distortion on it, though, which freaked me out. I've since come to realize that it's analog distortion introduced somewhere in the recording stage, but for a while I wasn't sure if my new CD player was working or not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:17:13 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 11:17 AM 6/14/02 -0700, Steve Holtebeck wrote: >But what about the group Smith (of "Baby It's You" fame)? Would they >come before or after the people surnamed Smith. Or to cite my own real >life alphabetical conundrum, does the band Green come before or after Al >Green? The library shelving rule is that nothing comes before something. Since there is no first initial or given name to go with the bands named Smith or Green, they come before personal surnames. Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Judges_, chapter 16, verse 9 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mitton Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD > New question: how many CDs have you bought more than once, because of > remastering or rerelease with bonus tracks? "I lost it" doesn't count. None. But the related question: How many CDs have you bought because you forgot you already owned it? About 10. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:26:41 -0400 From: "John Swartzentruber" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Possible old ground On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:13:34 +0100, Ian Runeckles & Angela Bennett wrote: >I bought my first CD player, a Yamaha, round about 86 and got two free >CDs with it - from the meagre selection on offer I chose Donald Fagen's >THE NIGHTFLY and Handel's MESSIAH. I wasn't going to play, but since we are now getting back to 85 and 86, I will. I got my first CD player on November 11, 1985. It was a Technics SL-PJ1. I think the record store I went to (an RTO in Columbus) had two little sections of CDs from which I purchased Thomas Dolby's "The Golden Age of Wireless" and Genesis "Trick of the Tail". A week later, I bought Handel's Messiah. I was amazed and impressed that they squeezed it onto two discs. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:31:14 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD Mr. Mallon queries: >how many CDs have you bought more than once, because of >remastering or rerelease with bonus tracks? Many. Most of the Yes catalog, for example, including one that I actually already had the remastered version of (YesShows). My first CD? Pink Floyd, Wish You Were Here, late 1985 IIRC. A few weeks before actually being in possession of a player. Sandpaper is 168 years old today. But I'm sure you all already knew that. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:31:09 -0700 From: John Cooper Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD On 6/14/02, Joseph M. Mallon wrote: >On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, John Sharples wrote: >> PS The question I haven't exactly solved is, are "McC" records filed before >> or after the MC5? I say after, but... > >ASCII order dictates 5 before C - all numbers before any letter. And ASCII order also dictates that all uppercase letters come before any lowercase letter, putting Momus between MC5 and McCartney. Also Warren Zevon before k.d. lang. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:33:54 -0500 From: "Keegstra, Russell" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD Mr. Mitton fesses up: >But the related question: How many CDs have you bought >because you forgot you already owned it? About 10. And I thought I was the only one that happened to. I've got four that I will admit to, including the previously mentioned YesShows. Russ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:35:45 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] Possible old ground In a message dated 6/14/02 10:18:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, janet@simplyliving.org writes: > I bought The Jam's _Extras_ when it came out in 1992, but didn't bother > getting a CD player for three or four years thereafter. By the time I > finally caved in, I owned a couple dozen CDs and was beginning to feel > foolish about them. > > That happened to me too, I had a few CD's and didn't have a player until 1997. Now I don't know how I got along without one. CD's are a lot easier to use than tapes. First CD purchased Dar Williams The End Of The Summer. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:38:15 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 11:15 AM 6/14/2002 -0700, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >The one I always have trouble with is Captain Beefheart. I think I ended up >filing him under B, but I'd have to look to be sure. I went with C, under the theory that "Captain" isn't a first name. That is, Elton John isn't Elton John's real name, but Elton *is* a real first name, so he goes under J. Works for me, anyway. S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:40:16 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 11:17 AM 6/14/2002 -0700, Steve Holtebeck wrote: >But why wouldn't Renaldo & the Loaf be under L by the "Foo and the Bars" >rule? Because that doesn't make any sense. "Foo Jack and the Bars" are >under J, but "Foo and the Bars" are under F. My one guideline for all >this is "where would I find this at the record store?". Ah, but that means that you'd have to remove Renaldo and the Loaf from your collection entirely and then look at yourself like you're from another planet when you ask yourself if you have it. It gets complicated, but rules are rules. S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:39:43 -0700 From: "me" Subject: [loud-fans] bay area loud fans KCBS is running an ad for a russian composer series at the symphony. i've heard two different ads. one has a nice, pleasant tune, and the other is reminiscent of Night on Bald Mountain. if anyone has heard this and recognized the second one, i'd love to know what it is. the info for the series is here: http://www.sfsevents.org/russianfestival/indexF.html i want to go see that piece performed, but i don't know what it is! (i have a feeling it may be the Firebird Suite.) - -- "Drag me, drop me, treat me like an object." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:45:38 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation >I went with C, under the theory that "Captain" isn't a first name. But would Sgt. Barry Sadler go under SER, or the Reverend Horton Heat under REV? I don't think so. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:58:01 -0400 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 11:45 AM 6/14/2002 -0700, Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: >>I went with C, under the theory that "Captain" isn't a first name. > >But would Sgt. Barry Sadler go under SER, or the Reverend Horton Heat under REV? >I don't think so. Sgt. Barry Sadler would go under F for Fiery Burning Pits of Hell, but yeah, my Reverend Horton Heat albums go under REV. Same principle: the honorific is an inseparable part of the name -- he never goes under "Horton Heat," same way Don Van V. never went by "Beefheart" -- and it's a pseudonym, therefore REV. Now, if I had any albums by Col. Bruce Hampton, those would go under HAM. There's an honorific, but Bruce hampton is his real name. S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:57:45 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 Tim_Walters@digidesign.com wrote: > >I went with C, under the theory that "Captain" isn't a first name. > > But would Sgt. Barry Sadler go under SER, or the Reverend Horton Heat under REV? > I don't think so. under VL, perhaps? or VA? i think i finally stuck him in "b" the filing that i find hardest is jazz and classical stuff. when i bought bill frisell & vernon reid's _smash & scatteration_ it was because vernon reid was on it. it still interests me today because frisell is on it. so that's an easy "f." but something like prestige's _thelonious monk and sonny rollins_ -- what to do? buy two and file one under rollins and one under monk??? likewise a classical disc with handel, pachabel, bach etc. can go with other "baroque" in a section of discs with multiple composers. but i have a disc with two concerti, one by mozart, one by carl maria von weber. one is classical, one is romantic -- can't file by period. one is M, one is W. although as certain parties can attest, much of the actual filing is done on the basis of "where can i cram a few more discs" - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:59:14 -0700 From: Tim_Walters@digidesign.com Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation >Now, if I had any albums by Col. Bruce Hampton, those would go under HAM. >There's an honorific, but Bruce hampton is his real name. Plus he's a bit of a ham. (Not that I don't love MUSIC TO EAT.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:03:28 -0400 From: "Aaron Milenski" Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation So what do we do if we own CONSEQUENCES, by Creme and Godley, and also FREEZE FRAME, by Godley and Creme? Separate them? Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:07:58 -0400 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: RE: [loud-fans] Organinzing that first CD Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 03:03 PM 6/14/2002 -0400, Aaron Milenski wrote: >So what do we do if we own CONSEQUENCES, by Creme and Godley, and also >FREEZE FRAME, by Godley and Creme? Separate them? This bugs me no end, but I have them both under G -- the names are reversed on CONSEQUENCES, but for the rest of their professional association, they were Godley and Creme, so it has precedence. Doug raises good points about the jazz and classical stuff. Albums like CONCEPTION, which is a tag-team album by Miles Davis, Lee Konitz, Gerry Mulligan, Stan Getz and I forget who else, I file under whoever has top billing, which in this case is Davis. Albums like the mixed-period classical disc you describe, I would probably stick under "Classical: Compilations" or something like that. The bugaboo for me in shelving classical is that I sometimes have to make judgment calls on whether they're shelved by composer or performer. Normally I shelve by composer, but some records I buy because I specifically like the performer, not necessarily the composer. Say, an album of Philip Glass' music by the Kronos Quartet -- G or K? Glenn Gould doing Bach, G or B? Aldo Ciccolini doing Satie, C or S? Perhaps Matthew has some guidelines on this one... S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:34:47 -0700 From: Matthew Weber Subject: Re: [loud-fans] the philosophy of punctuation At 03:20 PM 6/14/02 -0400, Stewart Mason wrote: >Albums like the mixed-period >classical disc you describe, I would probably stick under "Classical: >Compilations" or something like that. The bugaboo for me in shelving >classical is that I sometimes have to make judgment calls on whether >they're shelved by composer or performer. Normally I shelve by composer, >but some records I buy because I specifically like the performer, not >necessarily the composer. Say, an album of Philip Glass' music by the >Kronos Quartet -- G or K? Glenn Gould doing Bach, G or B? Aldo Ciccolini >doing Satie, C or S? Perhaps Matthew has some guidelines on this one... > >S My rules: Classical disc, all works by the same composer : filed under composer Classical disc, all works performed by same performer/ensemble : file under performer or ensemble Classical disc, works by various composers & performers : file under spine title Those aren't necessarily the rules used in AACR2; in library practice, often the idea is to find the main work on the recording and use that as the main entry, which is easy when you have a big symphony and two much shorter works filling out the disc, but almost impossible when you have a collection of 19th-century German lieder by various composers. Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Music Library University of California, Berkeley The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The Book of Judges_, chapter 16, verse 9 ------------------------------ End of loud-fans-digest V2 #209 *******************************